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  • #8,701
  • Jun 24, 2022 2:13am Jun 24, 2022 2:13am
Quoting navk
{quote} Excellent post. I infact, blown 2 MFF funded accounts, but collected 5200 usd one month before blowing that funded account. In that way, Blowing funded account does not matter to me. Now I aim to do faster challenges but relatively slow funded account. I have now 1x100k funded from TFF. Though I was very much annoyed when MFF refused to pay me 50 %, as MM put it here, their offerings are good. So, at some point i will go with MFF but after finishing 3 x100 with TFF.
Yes hopefully that pays off for you by doing challenges fast and then cruising along when funded provided you don't fall asleep at the wheel when funded.

Since most funded accounts do not require a profit target it's actually quite easy to simply stop trading or greatly reduce trade frequency which can be good or bad.

I think traders get into trouble with the funded accounts by wrongfully thinking that if they made 8% to 10% in Phase 1 and followed that up with another 5% or more in Phase 2 then they can make an easy 5% to 10% every month ongoing.

Ofcourse, this is not the case and when they push too hard ... bye bye funded account due to an over-leveraged series if losing trades mostly or lack of risk control or both.

It's just as well that Prop Firms welcome back traders who have either lost funded accounts or challenges or both with open arms!

Think about this next comment for a moment.

If Props were so keen to keep or build a team of 'professional' traders versed in risk control why then would they want to accept time and time again traders that have blown funded accounts ?

If they were concerned wouldn't it make sense to ban such traders after X number of blown funded accounts or perhaps offer them some one on one 'mentorship'?

It becomes quite clear that their model does not depend on the longevity of a funded trader.

So what does it depend on ?

Creating a model comes to mind.

A model could be built using objective functions across multiple parameters.

The idea here is to find out which parameters revenue is more responsive too based on maximising revenue flow whilst minimising risk or other parameters that are deemed to play a more sensitive role.

Maybe, I'll think about creating such a model when time allows.

In any case, good for thought and as always all the very best in your challenges and ofcourse the funded accounts.

Masterrmind ..............
Master your Mind then Master your Trades
  • #8,702
  • Jun 24, 2022 2:50am Jun 24, 2022 2:50am
Quoting Masterrmind
If Props were so keen to keep or build a team of 'professional' traders versed in risk control why then would they want to accept time and time again traders that have blown funded accounts ?
FTMO kicks out traders that do that often, specially if the balance of profits received and challenges fees paid are favorable to the trader.
It's important not to be too greedy down the radar and calm down. Divide this frantic activity between several props.
  • #8,703
  • Jun 24, 2022 3:11am Jun 24, 2022 3:11am
I suspect with this volatility we will start to see some prop firms squirm. Little birdy telling me a few of the mid size ones are struggling as traders get lucky in the wider markets. If you are due a profit split at any of the middle sized named firms, take it asap (incase you were thinking of compounding or whatever).
  • #8,704
  • Jun 24, 2022 3:41am Jun 24, 2022 3:41am
I should probably know the answer to this question

Regarding prop firms in general...and assuming monthly payouts.

Do they take their percentage split only when you make a withdrawal, and is the split based on the amount you wish to withdraw rather than the total monthly profit.

Or will they deduct their split off your total monthly profits, regardless of if you make a withdrawal or not?

So basically, if you never take a profit split....they will never take a percentage?
  • #8,705
  • Jun 24, 2022 4:29am Jun 24, 2022 4:29am
Quoting Paulscaff1
I should probably know the answer to this question Regarding prop firms in general...and assuming monthly payouts. Do they take their percentage split only when you make a withdrawal, and is the split based on the amount you wish to withdraw rather than the total monthly profit. Or will they deduct their split off your total monthly profits, regardless of if you make a withdrawal or not? So basically, if you never take a profit split....they will never take a percentage?

Only when you take the withdrawal.
  • #8,706
  • Jun 24, 2022 4:31am Jun 24, 2022 4:31am
Quoting Capablanca
{quote} FTMO kicks out traders that do that often, specially if the balance of profits received and challenges fees paid are favorable to the trader. It's important not to be too greedy down the radar and calm down. Divide this frantic activity between several props.
That's ofcourse correct as regards to FTMO.

Most Props don't care though.

A longer term profitable Prop Firm is what funded traders seek because they want to be paid their share at profit split time.

FTMO made some crazy large payouts recently and this is what I thought could easily start showing some cracks in the structure of that firm.

So far I haven't heard anything to the contrary.

However, consider what would happen if for example, multiple funded traders hit a major lucky streak or good fortune streak if you prefer, how might the Prop Firm handle this situation ?

Makes you wonder how are they pushing the order flow and what other protective measures are they applying !

Ofcourse it has to do with the Prop Firm's cash reserves with more the merrier.

It would be so easy for a 'gambler' type to become very very greedy in this space and if they blow the account simply rinse and repeat the process.

Masterrmind ............
Master your Mind then Master your Trades
  • #8,707
  • Jun 24, 2022 4:43am Jun 24, 2022 4:43am
Quoting Masterrmind
{quote} That's ofcourse correct as regards to FTMO. Most Props don't care though. A longer term profitable Prop Firm is what funded traders seek because they want to be paid their share at profit split time. FTMO made some crazy large payouts recently and this is what I thought could easily start showing some cracks in the structure of that firm. So far I haven't heard anything to the contrary. However, consider what would happen if for example, multiple funded traders hit a major lucky streak or good fortune streak if you prefer, how might the...
I always wonder maybe the firms copy the trades of their top traders, they have the statistics, they can identify good traders and bad traders, why not allocate the firms capital do some investing by copying the good traders trades.
  • #8,708
  • Jun 24, 2022 4:43am Jun 24, 2022 4:43am
Quoting Masterrmind
{quote} That's ofcourse correct as regards to FTMO. Most Props don't care though. A longer term profitable Prop Firm is what funded traders seek because they want to be paid their share at profit split time. FTMO made some crazy large payouts recently and this is what I thought could easily start showing some cracks in the structure of that firm. So far I haven't heard anything to the contrary. However, consider what would happen if for example, multiple funded traders hit a major lucky streak or good fortune streak if you prefer, how might the...

I'd say only FTMO and MFF would have sufficient reserves for some sort of apocalypse.
  • #8,709
  • Jun 24, 2022 4:48am Jun 24, 2022 4:48am
Quoting Takisd
{quote} Only when you take the withdrawal.
Cheers mate.

And so there split will only come off the amount you wish to withdraw.

For example say 80/20 split.

£10000/10% profit made for the month.

You choose to only withdraw £5000 therefore it would be a £4000/£1000 profit split?
  • #8,710
  • Jun 24, 2022 4:54am Jun 24, 2022 4:54am
Quoting Takisd
{quote} I'd say only FTMO and MFF would have sufficient reserves for some sort of apocalypse.
It sure would appear that way.

If there are others certainly would not be too many.

Afterall, looks like everyone is trying to start a Prop Firm these days and without sufficient cash reserves so during high volatile markets the pressure could very well be right up their alley.

I would like to see more competition in this space but only at the highest level ie challengers that really look to rock the top 2 firms.

Just a matter of time.

Masterrmind .............
Master your Mind then Master your Trades
  • #8,711
  • Edited 5:19am Jun 24, 2022 4:56am | Edited 5:19am
Almost all prop firms have a time limit (usually one or two months) for their challenges/evaluations, to force traders to use high leverage or trade frequently to reach the profit target in a short time.

I only find two firms with unlimited time: Lux and fundedtradingplus. As discussed before in this thread, Lux funding program is a complete scam, because they deliberately do not clearly explain their rules (many hidden rules) on their website so that they can deny you even if you pass. The problem with fundedtradingplus is relative drawdown.

Do you guys know any other firms with unlimited time?
  • #8,712
  • Jun 24, 2022 5:26am Jun 24, 2022 5:26am
Quoting ladder
Almost all prop firms have a time limit (usually one or two months) for their challenges/evaluations, to force traders to use high leverage or trade frequently to reach the profit target in a short time. I only find two firms with unlimited time: Lux and fundedtradingplus. As discussed before in this thread, Lux funding program is a complete scam, because they deliberately do not clearly explain their rules (many hidden rules) on their website so that they can deny you even if you pass. The problem with fundedtradingplus is relative drawdown. Do...

the5ers new program I guess. But its almost impossible to pass.
  • #8,713
  • Jun 24, 2022 5:27am Jun 24, 2022 5:27am
Quoting ladder
Almost all prop firms have a time limit (usually one or two months) for their challenges/evaluations, to force traders to use high leverage or trade frequently to reach the profit target in a short time. I only find two firms with unlimited time: Lux and fundedtradingplus. As discussed before in this thread, Lux funding program is a complete scam, because they deliberately do not clearly explain their rules (many hidden rules) on their website so that they can deny you even if you pass. The problem with fundedtradingplus is relative drawdown. Do...
MFF do the Rapid programe. I got a 10k live account off them when I did the 100k demo so you aren’t going to get rich doing it. Also you have to trade for a month after the live allocation to get your fees back. Only go for the NCA non consistent option.

I also went through the pain barrier with their support as they don’t even understand how it works… so get ready. Maybe they’ve improved since then.
  • #8,714
  • Jun 24, 2022 5:28am Jun 24, 2022 5:28am
Quoting Masterrmind
{quote} It sure would appear that way. If there are others certainly would not be too many. Afterall, looks like everyone is trying to start a Prop Firm these days and without sufficient cash reserves so during high volatile markets the pressure could very well be right up their alley. I would like to see more competition in this space but only at the highest level ie challengers that really look to rock the top 2 firms. Just a matter of time. Masterrmind .............

The problem is that nothing mathematically can beat the current evaluation programs. Other than making them cheaper, which would likely kill the companies, there isn't much more fluff you can put on these dogs.

If you make something more realistic, it won't sell. So ultimately all that will happen is you have a bunch of the same companies and whoever has a marketing budget wins. The trader pool is the same regardless.
  • #8,715
  • Jun 24, 2022 5:41am Jun 24, 2022 5:41am
Quoting Boulder
{quote} I always wonder maybe the firms copy the trades of their top traders, they have the statistics, they can identify good traders and bad traders, why not allocate the firms capital do some investing by copying the good traders trades.
Models can also be setup to analyze this type of situation too.

The problem is none of these successful Props will tell you any of the finer details of their business model, which ofcourse would not make sense for them to do so anyway.

From profitable traders at profit split time remember they are only taking about a 20% share of the profit across all the profit split traders at that time so there is a shortfall they have to get from somewhere.

The obvious one is that of incoming challenge fees.

But there are other revenue streams ofcourse, including cash reserves from a group of 'investors' which might include the 'CEO' and any other interested parties.

Statistics can certainly be used but copying a 'good' traders trades can be very dangerous since you never really know when a big change in their good fortune is going to take a turn for the worst and a funded account gets blown.

At least the firm can set risk controls such as max daily loss and overall loss.

Masterrmind ..............
Master your Mind then Master your Trades
  • #8,716
  • Jun 24, 2022 6:02am Jun 24, 2022 6:02am
Quoting Takisd
{quote} The problem is that nothing mathematically can beat the current evaluation programs. Other than making them cheaper, which would likely kill the companies, there isn't much more fluff you can put on these dogs. If you make something more realistic, it won't sell. So ultimately all that will happen is you have a bunch of the same companies and whoever has a marketing budget wins. The trader pool is the same regardless.
Certainly makes things more difficult for the newer Props.

Yes you need to sell that dream !

Some of the other longer term Props appear to be not so concerned about competing and tend to keep trading objectives and fees relatively 'fixed' however, they tend to offer mentorship programs, paid trader education programs and some also carry out live trading sessions via discord or a virtual trading room.

You can only drop the price to play so far before it starts to hurt your bottom line so then you have to use other strategies and tactics especially marketing as you pointed out.

Masterrmind ...........
Master your Mind then Master your Trades
  • #8,717
  • Jun 24, 2022 6:15am Jun 24, 2022 6:15am
Quoting Takisd
I suspect with this volatility we will start to see some prop firms squirm. Little birdy telling me a few of the mid size ones are struggling as traders get lucky in the wider markets. If you are due a profit split at any of the middle sized named firms, take it asap (incase you were thinking of compounding or whatever).
I thought exactly the same last week. We've been watch ranges well above 1% in a lot of pairs that traditionally were very quiet.
That could lead to liquidity stress in those small and medium companies. Not a good time for a long term relation on those.
  • #8,718
  • Jun 24, 2022 6:48am Jun 24, 2022 6:48am
Quoting Masterrmind
{quote} Certainly makes things more difficult for the newer Props. Yes you need to sell that dream ! Some of the other longer term Props appear to be not so concerned about competing and tend to keep trading objectives and fees relatively 'fixed' however, they tend to offer mentorship programs, paid trader education programs and some also carry out live trading sessions via discord or a virtual trading room. You can only drop the price to play so far before it starts to hurt your bottom line so then you have to use other strategies and tactics especially...

I can't imagine just how bad a mentorship to prop firm model would be. Firstly, which mentor actually knows anything about trading? And secondly, why would you risk your capital on someone you just taught rubbish to ? Or hmmm now i see what you are saying..
  • #8,719
  • Jun 24, 2022 7:18am Jun 24, 2022 7:18am
Quoting Takisd
I suspect with this volatility we will start to see some prop firms squirm. Little birdy telling me a few of the mid size ones are struggling as traders get lucky in the wider markets. If you are due a profit split at any of the middle sized named firms, take it asap (incase you were thinking of compounding or whatever).
Yes, the more I analyze it, the more I see the need for diversification. When I was trading with the offshores to avoid the US garbage brokers, I had my capital split up between 5 brokers and that was only 20% of my trading capital. 20% sat at coinbase for emergency margin and the rest in my bank account. The high leverage allows one to only keep what is required on deposit with the actual broker.
Now, in this space, we have been advocating maxing out the BIG 2, which I still believe is the correct process, but having 200K at 2-3 other firms allows you to "stay in business" should anything crazy happen. A prop going down is just the cost of doing business, IMO, and you simply replace it with another. Trading isn't going anywhere and I do not believe the prop firm market is either. It may shift and move, companies may come and go, but I believe the model itself is here to stay.
  • #8,720
  • Jun 24, 2022 7:29am Jun 24, 2022 7:29am
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} Yes, the more I analyze it, the more I see the need for diversification. When I was trading with the offshores to avoid the US garbage brokers, I had my capital split up between 5 brokers and that was only 20% of my trading capital. 20% sat at coinbase for emergency margin and the rest in my bank account. The high leverage allows one to only keep what is required on deposit with the actual broker. Now, in this space, we have been advocating maxing out the BIG 2, which I still believe is the correct process, but having 200K at 2-3 other firms...

I have the big "3" evaluations. With number 3 now being pretty shit. Here is an example of why its pretty shit. I haven't seen another i have interest in going through the process with and I may just go back to retirement.
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