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Attachments: Order Block Theory - Institutional Trading Method
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Order Block Theory - Institutional Trading Method

Its been very interesting reading this thread, thanks to all contributors.

I'd like to respond to the person (cant remember who it was) who said I had not done the work required in ICT mentorship, implying that is why I stopped at Month 7... you are totally wrong on that assumption. Please see attached pic, which is of one of my ICT Folders on my PC. I have watched every ICT video, free and from mentorship, taken copious notes and hundreds of screenshots of each, learned, memorized, devoted myself to his methodology and practiced till I was practically falling alseep at the keyboard. You cannot question my commitment. But what drove me away finally were his inconsistently vague explanations, re-justifications for his wrong predictions, arrogant and aggressive nature concerning any other mentor/guru/opposing method, aggressively pursuing (to great legal lengths) anyone who dared suggest he was not the greatest all time virtuoso he self proclaims, his bipolar tone and elevated self importance and self proclamation and self appointment as emperor and god in the trading world. Anyone who is so arrogant & aggressive is also extremely insecure, and I decided not to continue under the tutelage of a person with so many serious mental health issues. That is why I ceased the mentorship.

On another topic, I ask the people here for your thoughts on the Orderblock/Supply & Demand/Wycoffian mechanics. So - ICT says that smart money buys (the unwitting sellers orders) into a bearish candle that forms a bullish orderblock... mentfx and other S&D/Wyckoff people say that smart money sells into that bearish candle and therefore needs to mitigate their orders at a later time... it is a bit confusing because price does return consistently to the top of that bearish candle, or down to 50% of its range (Equilibrium/Mean Threshold/Consequent Encroachment etc)... but if smart money sold into that bearish candle, presumably they sold right to the base, am I right? So then they would need to mitigate right to the bottom of that (what becomes the bullish orderblock) candle?

I don't mind whether people want to call it orderblock or S&D or Wyckoff Accumulation Schematics Nos 1-4, its the mechanics of what happens that interests me. Do smart money/central banks/market makers buy the sell orders of unwitting sellers/continuation bears into that bearish candle, or do they sell into that price level in order to create the bearish candle/bullish orderblock/S&D level/zone???? OR, is it a combination of both? Maybe these big boys start the ball rolling by selling into those price levels, then as momentum gathers, switch to buying the sell orders that start coming in in order to fill their own positions?

As in all this discussion, I wonder if the truth lies somewhere in the middle... anyway I would welcome your thoughts on the second half of this long post. Thankyou.
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
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We don't see things as they are; we see things as we are.
Quoting Kafin
Attached OrderBlock indicator is coded based on the only clear description that I've seen - and I have seen quite a bunch! {image} If you want to request for some modification, kindly: 1) Properly describe the condition(s) that should be met before an area can be considered as an OB 2) Use a chart to show when the conditions have been met - just giving the pair/date/time will be OK, but screenshot is best. 3) Explain how you intend to use the indicator in your trading. Green pips to everyone! {file}
It would be wonderful if the indicator of the possibility of showing the OB that are in LTF.
Excuse my English
Quoting Kafin
Attached OrderBlock indicator is coded based on the only clear description that I've seen - and I have seen quite a bunch! {image} If you want to request for some modification, kindly: 1) Properly describe the condition(s) that should be met before an area can be considered as an OB 2) Use a chart to show when the conditions have been met - just giving the pair/date/time will be OK, but screenshot is best. 3) Explain how you intend to use the indicator in your trading. Green pips to everyone! {file}
It will be nice if you make an arrow buy/sell after price retest.
Quoting sonicvista12
Its been very interesting reading this thread, thanks to all contributors. I'd like to respond to the person (cant remember who it was) who said I had not done the work required in ICT mentorship, implying that is why I stopped at Month 7... you are totally wrong on that assumption. Please see attached pic, which is of one of my ICT Folders on my PC. I have watched every ICT video, free and from mentorship, taken copious notes and hundreds of screenshots of each, learned, memorized, devoted myself to his methodology and practiced till I was practically...
This totally a too complex path. It is more simple! I know that some here will attack me for this statement, but it move not a sandcorn away from it.
You can pick what you want. You can pick all the stuff here, or you can pick a simpler way. Your choice only if you know about it.
Market is more simple as you think.
So much BS about these days.
Quoting sonicvista12
Its been very interesting reading this thread, thanks to all contributors. I'd like to respond to the person (cant remember who it was) who said I had not done the work required in ICT mentorship, implying that is why I stopped at Month 7... you are totally wrong on that assumption. Please see attached pic, which is of one of my ICT Folders on my PC. I have watched every ICT video, free and from mentorship, taken copious notes and hundreds of screenshots of each, learned, memorized, devoted myself to his methodology and practiced till I was practically...
First of all, let me say this: I'm not trying to defend ICT, my focus is that his material...theory...methods...whatever you wanna call it, works!
I was wrong in saying that your problem was your commitment, I'm sorry for that, honestly the only person that can find the problem(s) is him / her self.
When we see that ICT stuff works ( seeing ICT videos or ICT's students videos or even others peoples videos applying his theories ) we get to the conclusion that if not works with me, then I'm the problem.
It's something that I'm doing or not doing that is causing the " issue ".

Quoting sonicvista12
But what drove me away finally were his inconsistently vague explanations, re-justifications for his wrong predictions, arrogant and aggressive nature concerning any other mentor/guru/opposing method, aggressively pursuing (to great legal lengths) anyone who dared suggest he was not the greatest all time virtuoso he self proclaims, his bipolar tone and elevated self importance and self proclamation and self appointment as emperor and god in the trading world. Anyone who is so arrogant & aggressive is also extremely insecure, and I decided not to...
You and every other person has the right to have an " opinion " about him or anyother person.
Again, my focus is to learn ICT's methods to be able to read PA by myself, to be able to make my own decisions and not to be dependent of anyother person to trade.
I don't care ( so to speak ) what his personality is, what he do or says outside of his teachings...simple as that...
Isn't it reasonable to expect that somewhere in your learning path you'll start to get a better " grip " on reading price and " sometimes " you're getting a different view of ICT's PA predictions?
If he's a trader ( person / human ) like others are, he'll be wrong sometimes, he'll make mistakes as other people will also..If he has a win ratio of 90% that means that he'll be wrong 10% of the time, now, ICT also says that he trades like 1 or 2 times a week and the more often we trade the morelikelihood we've to be wrong, so we can expect that 90% win ratio to drop when he tries to predict PA everyday!
He gives the tools and explains how they work so we can think and proceed as per ourselves analysis.

I hope the best in your trading journey

Peace
Quoting sonicvista12
On another topic, I ask the people here for your thoughts on the Orderblock/Supply & Demand/Wycoffian mechanics. So - ICT says that smart money buys (the unwitting sellers orders) into a bearish candle that forms a bullish orderblock... mentfx and other S&D/Wyckoff people say that smart money sells into that bearish candle and therefore needs to mitigate their orders at a later time... it is a bit confusing because price does return consistently to the top of that bearish candle, or down to 50% of its range (Equilibrium/Mean Threshold/Consequent...
Let me give my 2 cents. I won't touch on the S&D as I never found the method sound for me.

From the Wyckoff point of view if you look at that bearish candle/bar in isolation you would be deceiving yourself. You have to look at the whole story and/or background. On that bearish candle/bar the smart money could be releasing their sell orders (to sellers) or they could be releasing and buying at the same time. There could be a series of tests that follows where they test if there are any more sellers (at support). Their manipulation and tests can occur at both ends of the range (at support and resistance). If we go further to the late Tom Williams' VSA method it will tell you that you find strength in the down moves (if smart money is buying and/or releasing their sell orders dumb money will have to be convinced that the price will still move down). If dumb money is selling then someone smart must be buying.

To some extent the Bullish Order Block agrees with the Wyckoff methodf but ICT's terminology can confuse some. For example you might see a Bullish Order Block that meets the ICT definition (lowest candle/bar, down close, with most range between open and close, and is near support) and yet after the formation of that bar you might find the price still continues to move down after (the return to Order Block fails and it breaks the Low). ICT also does say you mustn't look at that candle/bar in isolation.

I believe I have said in this thread and Bilal's thread (https://www.forexfactory.com/thread/...-action-system?) that an Order Block is a break of market structure of the lower degree (these I have seen after putting hours practising the Order Block). Recently I went through ICT's videos, again, and I found one part he also indicated the same thing. So if we go back to the above - you see a Bullish Order Block and yet after the price continues to move down - that could mean that traders who could influence price movement at a lower degree might have caused that movement (Order Block which is the Break of Structure of a lower degree - a minor retracement).

Also from the Price Action point of view you mustn't look at the bearish candle/bar and the patterns (Signs) in isolation but you must also look at the Context (background).

I find some of the ICT Methods work for me but it does require a medical doctor qualification kind of commitment of study and practice. It doesn't work overnight. I repeat - it doesn't work overnight.

One lesson some ICT traders should take from the Wyckoff is that the Wyckoff method is not a mechanical or rule based system and they should look at the ICT Concepts that same way.

I have watched some of ICT's live trade videos (on a demo account) and the way he applied his mind and the decision making says to me he does use some of the lessons that were acquired and are stored on his subconscious mind (the things learned from other methods and Price Action). That is the same thing that happens to other methods - it might work for the owner and some few of his students. You might find those few students might have been exposed to some of the same lessons that Michael was exposed to but are not directly taught by ICT.

If I may ask how long have you been a trading student and what methods you were exposed to and for how long did you practice those methods? Unless your IQ is way above the 12 months mentorship is not sufficient but it gives you a starting point.

On his personality - try not to focus too much on it otherwise you might miss out on some valuable lessons. Just play the ball and not the player. What I found to be useful for me is that when I go through his videos the minute he goes off topic I start doing other things while waiting for him to come back to the topic.
Quoting Kafin
Attached OrderBlock indicator is coded based on the only clear description that I've seen - and I have seen quite a bunch! {image} If you want to request for some modification, kindly: 1) Properly describe the condition(s) that should be met before an area can be considered as an OB 2) Use a chart to show when the conditions have been met - just giving the pair/date/time will be OK, but screenshot is best. 3) Explain how you intend to use the indicator in your trading. Green pips to everyone! {file}
Thank you or your share. at first attach it looks very promising
could you pls update the code so this can auto refresh, or release the source so someone could look into it for modification pls.
http://forex.timezoneconverter.com/
Quoting Pumi
{quote} Let me give my 2 cents. I won't touch on the S&D as I never found the method sound for me. From the Wyckoff point of view if you look at that bearish candle/bar in isolation you would be deceiving yourself. You have to look at the whole story and/or background. On that bearish candle/bar the smart money could be releasing their sell orders (to sellers) or they could be releasing and buying at the same time. There could be a series of tests that follows where they test if there are any more sellers (at support). Their manipulation and tests...
Well spoken.

If I may add my 2 cents, I don't really place much emphasis on the term "order block", as it just denotes a "buy-to-sell" or "sell-to-buy" group of candles (2 or 3) which sets up a new SnD zone.

I've watched a few ICT videos and it's not my cup of tea. Like many others, I am not a big fan of his presentation skills. I very much prefer mentfx, (who himself is a student of ICT), who presents these principles with greater clarity as well as style and panache. I'm also subscribed to his mentorship, but I'll be ending that soon as I think I've learned everything I need to for future profitability. Pips of Persia is fantastic too. There are a lot of smart money channels popping up on YouTube. They're mostly all great.
Quoting fxpipper
{quote} Well spoken. If I may add my 2 cents, I don't really place much emphasis on the term "order block", as it just denotes a "buy-to-sell" or "sell-to-buy" group of candles (2 or 3) which sets up a new SnD zone. I've watched a few ICT videos and it's not my cup of tea. Like many others, I am not a big fan of his presentation skills. I very much prefer mentfx, (who himself is a student of ICT), who presents these principles with greater clarity as well as style and panache. I'm also subscribed to his mentorship, but I'll be ending that soon as...

there are tons of SMC videos and gurus, but did you manage to get profitable with it ?
is mentfx private group worhted, meaning is there something new there ?

it seems to me that this smc is all over these years, but i didint see anyone profitable yet...

thanks in advance,
Quoting bradu
{quote} there are tons of SMC videos and gurus, but did you manage to get profitable with it ? is mentfx private group worhted, meaning is there something new there ? it seems to me that this smc is all over these years, but i didint see anyone profitable yet... thanks in advance,
I can't speak for other SMC people, but for the mentfx private group the difference is that it's far more comprehensive compared to his free YouTube material. I won't divulge any of the private group content for obvious reasons, except to summarize it by saying the advanced techniques you learn could take your trading to a much higher level. Especially in terms of achieving ungodly RR - something that's absent from most purely retail trading methods. I can't tell you anymore, nor am I being paid to advertise for him. If you want to know more then you're always free to sign up. I don't know your financial situation, but I can guess that for most people on here the fee for one month won't break the bank. The rest is up to you.

It's like anything else in life, you put your money down and take your chances. You'll either have some wonderful experiences or some shitty ones. It all depends on how dedicated you are to learning and practicing what you've been taught, via back-testing and forward-testing, in order to prove its validity to yourself.

You say you haven't seen anyone profitable, but I think you're not looking hard enough. At the same time you can't expect people to actually show you their sensitive financial info. I see a ton of people claiming profitability using smart money and I don't instantly disbelieve them, especially not when I can follow along with what they're doing to prove their methodology to myself. I don't necessarily need to see their live trading accounts or bank accounts.

As far as I go...I'm still testing these methods. I stopped trading mid-2021 as things took a turn for the worse. Like most people I come from a retail background, and came to the realization that it's not sustainable for me. I stumbled across smart money stuff last year but only had a loose understanding of it. Clearly not enough to be profitable at the time, so I pulled my account. I am now absorbing this knowledge and practicing daily, so it will cement itself into my trading arsenal. I've pretty much disowned all things retail as I'm allergic to it now. Indicators and the whole deal, I'm done with it.

I'll be doing a prop firm challenge in the near future using these techniques, so ask me again in a year if I'm profitable.
This is how to identfiy ob
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Let's say there's a fair value gap and and an order block, like right now on BTCUSD. Highlighted in blue below.

Which one do you use? Or am I reading the FVG or order block wrong?
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  • Post #294
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  • Last Post: Mar 20, 2022 11:54pm Mar 20, 2022 11:54pm
I'm not the most experienced in ICT but have been doing it since a year back. I think you chart isn't really showing multiple timeframes and there isn't enough bars to identify the trend of the market. Personally, I will still identify the trend in the market from both high TF (overall trend) and the lowerTF (immediate trend). This will paint a story for the market to help you to trade whichever strategy you are using.

After painting a story, you will need to use the strength of that trend in the story to determine using FVG or OB to enter. there isn't right or wrong in using either. if understanding order flow is as simple as identifying the orders yet to be filled, price come back to fill in the orders until it has sufficient order to tip the balance for it to continue, it can be both FVG or OB to fill those orders.
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