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  • #6,021
  • Dec 13, 2021 7:24am Dec 13, 2021 7:24am
Quoting Takisd
Spreadsheet stuff still doesn't calculate the effect additional margin for positions has on the growth of an account. Alas, I don't like direct funding, just so far no one has factored in what trading is actually like in their math centric spreadsheets Bigger position size = more growth, if you are disciplined enough, direct funding poops all over trading own account. Rate of recovery also is significantly better on the direct funding.
-I mentioned this before, and this is probably why you usually see very small leverage being offered with these direct-funding accounts. Which is also why I say, if you double your starting capital on your own account, and trade with a broker that offers much more leverage, then the benefits clearly start to favor the personal account.
  • #6,022
  • Dec 13, 2021 8:28am Dec 13, 2021 8:28am
Quoting Triglav
I asked opinion of Scandinavian traders.Didn,t get much information about them.So I check this forum and many prop firms on net. most popular seem to be FTMO. So I would like to know ,why is better to have limited time to pass evaluation at FTMO than unlimited at Scandinavien at same DD and profit target? Thank you for any answer.
Scandinavian Markets uses trailing drawdown..... nasty, stay away.

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  • #6,023
  • Dec 13, 2021 8:44am Dec 13, 2021 8:44am
Quoting MoxFulder
{quote} Scandinavian Markets uses trailing drawdown..... nasty, stay away. {image}
The pricing is atrocious for a new barely existing firm.
It's not even worth discussing IMO when there are more established firms that cost less
  • #6,024
  • Dec 13, 2021 9:18am Dec 13, 2021 9:18am
Quoting Takisd
{quote} Mate, you trade right? Take your 2.5k with 1:500 and compare it to say a 50k direct funding account (which has 2.5k drawdown) and calculate your position sizes you can trade. Then, lose 1k on that, and see if you can open the same size trade on each account in order to recover the draw. Leverage is not margin..
Jeez really? Leverage is not margin?
How much margin you use is definitely dependent on how much leverage you have.
How much margin is used definitely effects your position sizing.
You make it like the leverage and margin are totally unrelated.

Mate, you trade right?


The rest as per Koop's reply to you.
  • #6,025
  • Dec 13, 2021 9:28am Dec 13, 2021 9:28am
Quoting OutThere
{quote} Jeez really? Leverage is not margin? How much margin you use is definitely dependent on how much leverage you have. How much margin is used definitely effects your position sizing. You make it like the leverage and margin are totally unrelated. Mate, you trade right? The rest as per Koop's reply to you.
He is 100% correct Margin is NOT Leverage and Leverage is NOT Margin...
  • #6,026
  • Dec 13, 2021 9:53am Dec 13, 2021 9:53am
Quoting Fagin
{quote} He is 100% correct Margin is NOT Leverage and Leverage is NOT Margin...
True, Leverage is not margin.
However, margin is directly related to Leverage + Account Balance.
  • #6,027
  • Dec 13, 2021 9:58am Dec 13, 2021 9:58am
I think that getting hung up on these things is not important. Having a larger account balance is important, just as having more leverage is also important.

The point is, many of these direct-funding programs offer only a little bit of leverage, and the actual account balance is much lower than the advertised account size. Oftentimes, the draw-down allowance on such accounts is very close to the buy-in fee. That is a very important consideration. And when you consider these points, it is easier to understand how trading your own account with slightly more initial capital and much higher leverage, is ultimately better because you are able to keep 100% profits and withdraw at any time.

In the case of TCF, the buy-in was $300 for $500 draw-down. Which is actually better than most programs, admittedly. The leverage offered is only 1:50 (some programs even offer less).

So, if you instead, kept that $300 and added a bit more to your personal account so that you could trade with the same balance allocation, but with 1:500 leverage, for example, while being able to keep 100% profits and withdraw at any time, then the direct funding is clearly not better.

In order to scale-up with the direct funding, you have to keep your profits in the account. Those profits serve as your new draw-down allowance. There is no more capital being given to you; it is a falsity. You are providing it yourself. This could be done with your own account.

The only reason someone would need to consider trading with an instant-funded account over a personal account is if they lacked the funds and did not want to save up the additional capital, or, they did not have access (or courage) to trade with an offshore brokerage that offers better leverage or some other reasoning.

The additional amount needed to save up in order to match the direct funding will depend on the broker margin-stop level. Once that is figured out, the additional leverage and freedom to withdraw 100% at any time you wish will far outweigh the benefits of the direct funding program.

With that being said, the only real benefit being offered with these programs is the opportunity to trade your entire balance without getting margin-stopped. That's literally it. The only exception to this are the few programs that actually offer you a little bit more draw-down than what your buy-in fee is. But even then, the difference is mostly negligible for the smaller tiers, and the benefits can be easily matched and surpassed with a little bit of patience.

For the higher tier programs, where the fund allocation disparity becomes more significant, well, at that point, you likely have the capital to consider a traditional model that offers much greater draw-down allowance for your money. And for those that do not like the time restraints, there are traditional offerings that do not have them.

It should be case-closed, but I guess not.
  • #6,028
  • Edited 10:25am Dec 13, 2021 10:04am | Edited 10:25am
True, but the fact still remains... your risk of ruin is totally dependent on what you can lose, in a personal account it's 100%, with these direct funding "scaling" models it's 4-5%. So I have a 2500 personal account and I have a 50K prop account with 5%DD (2500). I lose 1000 in each, I now have 1500 in personal account and 49K prop account (but only 1500DD allowed to lose). Even if you are able to position size bigger because leverage is based on the 49K, what % of the 1500 are you going to risk? Same as you would in the personal account, correct?
Take it a step further, let's say you're going to risk 20%(crazy high) with only a 5 pip stop, you'd be @60/pip, so you would need 400:1 in personal account, but only 12:1 in the prop (which most DF models do not offer). However, some do. So, in this scenario, if you are a heavy risk taker and use really tight stop losses, this could be accomplished in the personal account or DF (if higher than 10:1 is offered). Only way the margin on the balance helps is if you are going to go "all-in" on your remaining DD, the personal account would not afford the leverage to go "all-in" with a 5 pip stop.
  • #6,029
  • Dec 13, 2021 10:47am Dec 13, 2021 10:47am
Here is a basic overview of one of MFF's direct-funding accounts. There might be some errors in it, but it shows basically what is happening. The bad part is, even though the profit targets in this diagram say 20%, they are really 50% and 100% targets, when based on the actual draw-down allowance. Furthermore, this diagram does not show what the benefits would look like if you just doubled your initial capital and traded your own money that way:

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  • #6,030
  • Dec 13, 2021 11:01am Dec 13, 2021 11:01am
Quoting Nsak3y
Here is a basic overview of one of MFF's direct-funding accounts. There might be some errors in it, but it shows basically what is happening. The bad part is, even though the profit targets in this diagram say 20%, they are really 50% and 100% targets, when based on the actual draw-down allowance. Furthermore, this diagram does not show what the benefits would look like if you just doubled your initial capital and traded your own money that way: {image}
Rule of thumb for me is if I don't get it I don't buy it. I don't get the direct funding model no matter which way I look at it...
  • #6,031
  • Dec 13, 2021 1:17pm Dec 13, 2021 1:17pm
Hi pipmaster77,
please look at the PM that I sent you
  • #6,032
  • Dec 13, 2021 9:28pm Dec 13, 2021 9:28pm
Itching to blow something up so I purchased a 20K MFF evaluation. Of course, it's been over 24 hours and no credentials.

November 4th was the original date they set for automation. That went bye-bye long ago. I get it, still lots of testing and they want to make sure everything works correctly.

But they've had more than enough time to staff up to accommodate the Funding Talent refugees, etc etc. Prices are great but account provision is an abject failure in my view.
Pride always comes before destruction.... -Proverbs 16:18
  • #6,033
  • Dec 14, 2021 3:23am Dec 14, 2021 3:23am
I bought a MFF evaluation yesterday evening and got my creds this morning, so around 15 hours or so. Looking forward to the day it can be done in a few hours or less....
Your worst drawdown is yet to come
  • #6,034
  • Dec 14, 2021 6:07am Dec 14, 2021 6:07am
Quoting MoxFulder
{quote} Scandinavian Markets uses trailing drawdown..... nasty, stay away. {image}
Maximum Trailing drawdown is the maximum your account can drawdown before you would hard breach your account. When you open the account, your max trailing drawdown is set at 5% of your starting balance. This 5% trails your closed trading balance until you reach 5% profits in your account. Once you have achieved 5% profit in your live account, the max trailing locks in at your starting balance and no longer trails your account.
Example: If your starting balance is $100,000, you can drawdown to $95,000 before you would violate the Maximum Trailing Drawdown rule. Then for example let's say you take your account to $102,000 in closed balance. This is your new high-water mark, which would mean your new Maximum Trailing Drawdown would be $97,000. Next, let's say you take your account to $105,000 in closed balance, which would be your new high-water mark. At this point your Maximum Trailing Drawdown would be locked in at your starting balance of $100,000. So, regardless of how high your account goes, you would only breach this rule if your account drew back down to $100,000 (note, you can still violate the daily drawdown). For example, if you take your account to $170,000, as long as you do not drawdown more than 4% in any given day, you would only breach if your account equity reaches $100,000.
  • #6,035
  • Dec 14, 2021 6:25am Dec 14, 2021 6:25am
Quoting Triglav
{quote} Maximum Trailing drawdown is the maximum your account can drawdown before you would hard breach your account. When you open the account, your max trailing drawdown is set at 5% of your starting balance. This 5% trails your closed trading balance until you reach 5% profits in your account. Once you have achieved 5% profit in your live account, the max trailing locks in at your starting balance and no longer trails your account. Example: If your starting balance is $100,000, you can drawdown to $95,000 before you would violate the Maximum...
Lol Doesn't matter. They're not worth it.
I see no point wasting your time on a firm that has no credibility when there are much cheaper and better, established ones available.
  • #6,036
  • Dec 14, 2021 7:00am Dec 14, 2021 7:00am
That is my problem. I can not go for a company which want me to make 10% profit in 22 days with 5% DD. I like to go slow but sure. As far as credibility is concerned Scandinavian trading is established broker, but new in prop trading. Also 1% for account is way less than 5%DD. Lux trading has4% DD and I read on this blog that it is a good company. I have no connection with any prop company yet, still looking.
  • #6,037
  • Edited 8:55am Dec 14, 2021 8:01am | Edited 8:55am
@scandinavianmarkets


this is their live chat reply regarding prfit WD and trailing DD lock


me: You can withdraw your profits at any time. You can elect to withdraw them on day 1 of your live account, or leave them in your account to grow. Should you request a withdrawal we will withdraw 100% of your request and send you 75% (your profit share).Important Note: Once you achieve a 5% profit in the live account, the Maximum Trailing Drawdown is locked in at the amount of your starting balance. This effectively means that any full withdrawal results breaching the Maximum Drawdown rule and closing the account.You can always withdraw all your profits (75% of profit made in the account). Only bear in mind that in case of a full withdrawal your account gets closed.
not clear this option
lets say, in 1st month i made 5k profit
now how much ill get


live chat:

Ok, so when you reach the live account and have profits, you can request a withdraw at any point. You can also leave your profits in the account to scale it, given that when you have more then 5% profit in the account, your drawdown limit increases. So let’s say you have a 100k account and made 5k profit, you can withdraw as much as you want, however, once you request your first withdraw the drawdown locks in the initial balance (100k), so if you withdrawal all 5k, your account will be closed.
If you want to withdraw and continue trading, you have to leave some profits in the account
how much you want to leave is up to you
we only withdraw our profit share (25%) when you do, meaning that you also have our profits to scale


me:
ok
lets have another scenario
To 100k I made 5k on 1st month and not withdrawn any, and in 2nd month again i made 5k
now if i withdraw 3750 from my profit what will happen?


live chat:

so you grew the account to 110k, and after your withdrawal you are left with 106,250... so you can continue to trade and you effectively have 6,250 drawdown left you the account (about 6%)
keep in mind that the profit split is done when you request the withdrawal amount, so in that example we would send you 75% of 3750 and keep 25% of it.



*****so what I get we need to leave at least 5% profit in our acc to continue trading. means we will trade for our own money like direct funding plans ...
  • #6,038
  • Dec 14, 2021 10:17am Dec 14, 2021 10:17am
Quoting Simply-Me
{quote} Don't forget that MFF free extension is not 30 days but 4 weeks.That's mean 28 days !!.Learned hard way.
I could not achieve profit target 8 % as I was not trading many days.

And some days loss, however i was able to close the balance above 100k so I asked for retry. Did not ask for extension.

Not worth asking extension if profit achieved in first 30 days is at least 5 %
Intraday only.
  • #6,039
  • Dec 14, 2021 10:37am Dec 14, 2021 10:37am
Quoting inversio
@scandinavianmarkets this is their live chat reply regarding prfit WD and trailing DD lock me: You can withdraw your profits at any time. You can elect to withdraw them on day 1 of your live account, or leave them in your account to grow. Should you request a withdrawal we will withdraw 100% of your request and send you 75% (your profit share).Important Note: Once you achieve a 5% profit in the live account, the Maximum Trailing Drawdown is locked in at the amount of your starting balance. This effectively means that any full withdrawal results...
But if you not make profit immediatly your DD is at 95000 which is a loss for company.
  • #6,040
  • Dec 14, 2021 10:45am Dec 14, 2021 10:45am
Quoting Triglav
{quote} But if you not make profit immediatly your DD is at 95000 which is a loss for company.

yes loss for both trader and firm
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