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  • #5,981
  • Dec 9, 2021 2:20pm Dec 9, 2021 2:20pm
Quoting Koop
{quote} So long as your additional positions are not larger tan the first one which may be in DD at the time, then you're good. E.g/// you can open ten 1 lot positions as price continues to move against you.. 1 1 1 1 1 1 ... or you could reduce the sizes.... You only violate when you increase the position sizes. {quote} it's just the same as any direct funding model. Waste of time in my opinion. Risk your money with DT4X if you really want the most sensible direct funding offer. The 1:10 leverage will also help keep your wild side in check too lol....
Ok, DT4X responded to my email for clarification on whether their "Maximum loss" is trailing and YES it is. DT4X will now be going on my naughty list, I had such high hopes for them, I mean come on, 5% profit target with no time limit.
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  • #5,982
  • Dec 9, 2021 5:41pm Dec 9, 2021 5:41pm
Quoting MoxFulder
{quote} Koop, is this another way of wording "trailing drawdown"? If it isn't, they should just come out and say that it's a 5% loss from the initial account balance. I've reached out to them to clarify. {image}
I'm not sure man, would be a total let down if it is.

Quoting MoxFulder
{quote} Ok, DT4X responded to my email for clarification on whether their "Maximum loss" is trailing and YES it is. DT4X will now be going on my naughty list, I had such high hopes for them, I mean come on, 5% profit target with no time limit. {image}
Lmao Oh Damn.
  • #5,983
  • Dec 9, 2021 5:47pm Dec 9, 2021 5:47pm
Quoting Mtinifx
{quote} Mmmm to answer my own question, I think I'm not If you manage to make that 10% and want to get scaled up (only 25k account qualifies), you're losing $1500 - might as well rather buy another 25k account and keep the change!!
Lol Not the best value for money. Don't forget you'll also be giving up 40% every time you withdraw.

I've also just learnt that if you manage to scale up to the top/highest account balance, all that profit which you had to leave in to enable you scale is no longer yours. withdrawing it all would mean a closure of your account.

Crazy.
  • #5,984
  • Dec 9, 2021 6:08pm Dec 9, 2021 6:08pm
Quoting Koop
{quote} Lol Not the best value for money. Don't forget you'll also be giving up 40% every time you withdraw. I've also just learnt that if you manage to scale up to the top/highest account balance, all that profit which you had to leave in to enable you scale is no longer yours. withdrawing it all would mean a closure of your account. Crazy.
How do they stay in business? Who is signing up for this? These scaling models use the terms "no time limit to hit target" and "scale to 4 million". Makes the un suspecting think it's a great deal. Meanwhile, you're initial fee is more than you are allowed to lose, they double you every time you triple (talking target vs DD, as that is really all that matters) the account and then they take 40-50%. In the end, the DD they provide when you scale to the top levels is only like 25% of what you'd have in a personal account. It truly is a great business model FOR THEM.
  • #5,985
  • Dec 10, 2021 6:17am Dec 10, 2021 6:17am
Can't agree with any of you I'm afraid.

In my view there is a place for the direct funded model.

Come on guys, it is much easier to make $1250 on a 25k account at 50:1 then to take $700 of your own money and try and double it in a trading account! We all know how difficult it is to make even 10%. But lets say you're a good trader and you do so in a week or two. So you've made $70 - big deal!

And if you do the maths on the TCF offer, at the moment it is probably not a bad deal. Works out to about $700 for a $25k account. You are allowed to lose up to 5% which if my maths is correct, is $1250 - That is a lot more then $700 !

Some of you guys need to go back to school
  • #5,986
  • Dec 10, 2021 6:38am Dec 10, 2021 6:38am
Quoting Mtinifx
Can't agree with any of you I'm afraid. In my view there is a place for the direct funded model. Come on guys, it is much easier to make $1250 on a 25k account at 50:1 then to take $700 of your own money and try and double it in a trading account! We all know how difficult it is to make even 10%. But lets say you're a good trader and you do so in a week or two. So you've made $70 - big deal! And if you do the maths on the TCF offer, at the moment it is probably not a bad deal. Works out to about $700 for a $25k account....
Lol Don't worry about it Mate, just give one of the direct fundings an actual shot, then you'll understand.

When you put together all the variables, i.E 50-60% profit split, allowed DD compared to fee, I personally don't see the point.
But I'll wait till you try it out.
  • #5,987
  • Dec 10, 2021 7:05am Dec 10, 2021 7:05am
Quoting Mtinifx
Can't agree with any of you I'm afraid. In my view there is a place for the direct funded model. Come on guys, it is much easier to make $1250 on a 25k account at 50:1 then to take $700 of your own money and try and double it in a trading account! We all know how difficult it is to make even 10%. But lets say you're a good trader and you do so in a week or two. So you've made $70 - big deal! And if you do the maths on the TCF offer, at the moment it is probably not a bad deal. Works out to about $700 for a $25k account....
But you are not making 1250 on a 25K account. You are making 1250 on the DD allowed. Think about it....if your risk of ruin is say, for simplicity 20 trades, you'd risk 5% per trade. You can risk 5% of your entire balance in the personal account, you can only risk 5% of the DD ALLOWED with the prop, if you risk 5% of the balance and lose.....GAME OVER in the prop. So you literally will trade the same size position (or larger) in the personal account, than the prop account. Therefore, with all being equal, the personal account grows faster and you don't give up 40%.

Only thing you are correct on is....YES, THIS IS SIMPLE MATH

I did it with the 5%ers in a public space for all to see. I was already funded with FTMO and wanted to add another, about 2 weeks in I realized. So I do speak from experience. Just trying to help, it is a complete waste of your time.
  • #5,988
  • Edited 10:11am Dec 10, 2021 9:10am | Edited 10:11am
Quoting Mtinifx
Can't agree with any of you I'm afraid. In my view there is a place for the direct funded model. Come on guys, it is much easier to make $1250 on a 25k account at 50:1 then to take $700 of your own money and try and double it in a trading account! ... Some of you guys need to go back to school
-To be fair, I said that most of the direct models are not a good value. I do not know all of the specifics regarding TCF's model. However, traditional models typically always offer more value for your investment in terms of draw-down allowance, not to mention they are usually 100% refundable.

Let's break down one of TCF's instant-funding options:

10K account (imaginary, as this could say 1 million, and it would not matter):

Cost: approximately $300 (non-refundable)
Draw-down allowance: $500

So, you are getting a $500 account for $300 that is non-refundable. Already, this is not looking good when compared to traditional models.

In order to scale up to an imaginary 20K account, you need to generate 10% profit on an imaginary 10K account, which would be 1K.

If your account is actually only $500, and you have to generate a profit of $1K (to bring it to $1,500), that means that you need to double your account, then you need to do another 50% on top of that.

Then, once you are 'scaled up', you likely have to keep that 10% profit in the account, is that right? If it is, that means that you are not really scaled up, you are only locking in your profits to serve as draw-down. Because now you will have a "20K account" with 1k draw-down. How convenient that your draw-down is the exact amount that you needed to generate before. See how this works? And even though your buy-in was only $300 for a $500 account, that $300 is not refundable.

So, you really weren't getting $500 in funding after all, you were actually getting $200 in funding for putting up $300 of your own money. I guess that is how they justify giving you 60%, since that is what you are bringing to the table. The problem with this is, you are doing all of the work.

Imagine building a commercial property and partnering up with an investor that offered to put up 40% of the capital required for the project, while you put up 60% for the project, but you also needed to do all of the work. Then, imagine being told that you would get 60% of the profits generated from the property, in perpetuity. Still seem like a good deal?
  • #5,989
  • Dec 10, 2021 12:56pm Dec 10, 2021 12:56pm
OK guys I better get out the white flag!

With TCF, you have to start with a minimum 25k account (which is 700 bucks) to take advantage of any scaling and I don't have that kind of money to wager anyway.

Oh well it's back to the drawing board
  • #5,990
  • Dec 10, 2021 2:07pm Dec 10, 2021 2:07pm
Quoting Mtinifx
OK guys I better get out the white flag! With TCF, you have to start with a minimum 25k account (which is 700 bucks) to take advantage of any scaling
-That is your reasoning? Have you not read anything here? The scaling is nonsense.

Edit: if you are short on funds, there are other options. The funded trader program has a free competition each month where the winner gets a free 100K account. There are also cheap subscription models that have a much lower barrier to entry that you might find suitable.
  • #5,991
  • Dec 10, 2021 3:37pm Dec 10, 2021 3:37pm
Hi All, numbers guy is here again

I was looking at growth plans like CTI, 5ers and Lux for some time now and they looked very attractive. Reason being they have either no time limit or very long ones (6-12months). Out of these three I would consider only Lux because no time limit on Evaluation, fastest growth plan, best profit split, great broker, can trade from TradingView and the most important is that as the only firm out of these three they refund the fee after passing Evaluation stage (on two others you kind of get some fee back coz you trade Evaluation on live account).

Then there is Challenge model that most of us love the most including me. I am using MFF but plan to try FTMO and possibly TheFundedTrader after I max out the first two. Right now, I am in Phase1 on $100K account and in Phase2 in another $100K account - on my way to get $600K in the next 4-6 months.

My dilemma was that what if I traded Lux account on the side. So I wanted to find out if it was worth it. I think that the only reason anyone would choose Lux over Challenge model is no time restriction. It doesn't apply to me as I have no problem passing Challenges. But I admit that many traders would be better of with Lux and take their time to pass without any stress. Therefore, if you are the one who can't use Challenge model and want to try the Growth model, then please don't waste time searching and comparing firms and just pick Lux and you'll be ok.

Growth model is different from Direct Funding model. I already shared calculations on this thread proving that you're better of putting money into your real account and keep 100% of profits. Growth model on the other hand has advantages and if you compare Lux with Real account and keep making profit withdrawals then Lux will be much better than your Real account. Also consider fee is refundable with Lux.

I decided to compare LUX and MFF using only one statistic that really matters. And that is the max DD after the profit split. This would show me how much money do I really have to trade with. Or in other words, how much money I can lose before my accounts are closed. I adjusted maxDD for profit split because that also matters on how much you get paid.

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The spreadsheet shows that with Lux you would need minimum of 10 months (minimum days rule) to get to maxAUM of $2.5mil and this would give you $65K maxDD already adjusted for profit split. Realistically, it may take you over 12 months to get maxAUM.

What could be done with MFF in those 12 months? You should be able to get $600K and at least one scaling and on some early accounts maybe 2 scalings. Consider that to get $600K you only need to turn 3-4 Challenges into Funded accounts. And after 12 months if you manage to get $780K, then your maxDD adjusted for profit split will be almost $94K, which is around 50% more than what you get with Lux. And advantage of MFF or FTMO is that you can keep multiple accounts and if you lose one then you can quickly replace it. Therefore your risk of losing all funding is limited. With Lux you have to be careful coz all your funding is in just one account.

So is it worth it to run Lux on the side? Right now just by looking at the numbers it doesn't make sense to me. Running Funded accounts over few prop firms and considering that profits from managing $1mil AUM would be plenty enough to live amazing life says enough to just be happy and try not to overextend myself with too many firms/accounts. Maybe I will change my mind in 6-12 months but for now I am happy taking Challenges.

If you can generate 1% per week, then how much AUM do you really need to get enough monthly profit to live great life? Of course, it depends where you live but do you think you really need to trade millions? Where I live I could live very comfortably just by making 4% on $100K account.

Eventually, I will put most of the profits into my own larger personal account as a backup just in case some prop firms would run into some problems with future Financial Authority Regulations.

Have a great rest of December and celebrate Xmas holidays and New Year in style.
  • #5,992
  • Dec 10, 2021 4:02pm Dec 10, 2021 4:02pm
The direct funding models ONLY work if you're in a regulated market with leverage restrictions + you refuse to consider offshore trading + your stop size is <20 pips requiring a position size you could not trade restricted to 30-50:1 leverage. Other than that specific scenario... ALL direct funding plans suck! There is no way trading the exact same position size in a personal account offshore while keeping 100% will not return significantly higher returns.

If you're not paying for significantly higher drawdown than the fee to compensate for giving up % of returns... they always win & you lose!
  • #5,993
  • Dec 10, 2021 4:08pm Dec 10, 2021 4:08pm
Quoting endgame99
Hi All, numbers guy is here again I was looking at growth plans like CTI, 5ers and Lux for some time now and they looked very attractive. Reason being they have either no time limit or very long ones (6-12months). Out of these three I would consider only Lux because no time limit on Evaluation, fastest growth plan, best profit split, great broker, can trade from TradingView and the most important is that as the only firm out of these three they refund the fee after passing Evaluation stage (on two others you kind of get some fee back...
I love when people get it
  • #5,994
  • Dec 10, 2021 4:08pm Dec 10, 2021 4:08pm
Quoting CableJ
The direct funding models ONLY work if you're in a regulated market with leverage restrictions + you refuse to consider offshore trading + your stop size is <20 pips requiring a position size you could not trade restricted to 30-50:1 leverage. Other than that specific scenario... ALL direct funding plans suck! There is no way trading the exact same position size in a personal account offshore while keeping 100% will not return significantly higher returns. If you're not paying for significantly higher drawdown than the fee to compensate for giving...
EXACTLY RIGHT!!!!!
  • #5,995
  • Dec 11, 2021 2:54am Dec 11, 2021 2:54am
Hi @ all,
FTMO has an interesting 10% discount and a 10 days extra bonus on their challenge. Promo is running until 31. of December.

Best
Chriss
  • #5,996
  • Dec 11, 2021 2:59am Dec 11, 2021 2:59am
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} I love when people get it
  • #5,997
  • Dec 12, 2021 4:09am Dec 12, 2021 4:09am
Hello everyone,
Does anyone here happen to have an experience with using a trade copier in managing accounts over multiple prop firms-- where trades taken on one account are replicated on others?
How exactly does it work? And is there a service you would recommend?
  • #5,998
  • Dec 12, 2021 10:41am Dec 12, 2021 10:41am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-That is your reasoning? Have you not read anything here? The scaling is nonsense. Edit: if you are short on funds, there are other options. The funded trader program has a free competition each month where the winner gets a free 100K account. There are also cheap subscription models that have a much lower barrier to entry that you might find suitable.
Nsak that was an irritating post, You seem to have a knack of getting under people's skin!

NO the scaling is NOT a nonsense. That is the whole idea with these models. The bigger the account, then obviously the more you can earn. Plus you have a bigger DD allowance. Of course with TCF you give up your portion of the 10% profit but on the other hand you don't get knocked out completely if you violate the rules. There are plenty of people doing these DF plans unfortunately it seems that none of them are on this thread - probably because of the all the naysayers - who can blame them!

I don't know if you've ever completed an evaluation 2 phase challenge but it's not some holy grail as you seem to be making out! It's a very tough long road for most which is why there is 90% failure figures. The point is that the 5% daily drawdown is exactly the same problem (and which catches out most people) as with the direct funding models. At least with some DF models, there is NO target or pressure. If you make 500 bucks, you can take it out. Something to show for all the pain and hard work at least!

And this rubbish that you and others keep spouting about how it's much better to put the money in your own account and trade it to SOMEHOW make big profits is NONSENSE!! The only way that it would be better is if you fund your own account with a reasonable amount of money, say 25k or even 50k. Otherwise if you try to overdo it, we all know what happens. Your account is blown in no time.

That is the WHOLE IDEA of prop trading accounts. Whether it be direct funding or the evaluation route. Giving one the leverage to make big money IF you are a good trader of course.
  • #5,999
  • Dec 12, 2021 11:44am Dec 12, 2021 11:44am
Quoting Mtinifx
{quote} Nsak that was an irritating post, You seem to have a knack of getting under people's skin! NO the scaling is NOT a nonsense. That is the whole idea with these models. The bigger the account, then obviously the more you can earn. Plus you have a bigger DD allowance. Of course with TCF you give up your portion of the 10% profit but on the other hand you don't get knocked out completely if you violate the rules. There are plenty of people doing these DF plans unfortunately it seems that none of them are on this thread - probably because of...
Just fund your personal account with the "fee", run the two side by side and let us know what you find out. Nobody is on here reporting their success with DF funds, because 1-2 months in you realize you are simply funding your own account, and giving up 40-50% for that "privilege". Even when they "scale" you, the max allowed DD is the only figure that matters, I can have a 10 million dollar account, if my max loss is 10K, it is a 10K account.

If I have a 1K personal and I risk 5% per trade, it's $50. If I have a $20K DF account with max DD 5%, I have $1000 DD. Now are you going to risk 5% of the 20K or 5% of the $1,000. Of course, it is the latter, if you risk 5%of the 20K and lose, you are done. So if you are risking 5% of the 1K in either case, why not keep 100% instead of 50-60%?

You are required to 2.5x ,in some case 3 x the profit vs DD, when you accomplish this they are doubling your DD. So show us triple the profit and we will double your account, doesn't make sense. That's why I say, run them side by side, you'll then understand exactly what we mean.
  • #6,000
  • Dec 12, 2021 12:16pm Dec 12, 2021 12:16pm
Quoting Mtinifx
Nsak that was an irritating post, You seem to have a knack of getting under people's skin! NO the scaling is NOT a nonsense.
-Well, I was only ever trying to help you. It is not my fault if you cannot see that or if you take offense to it.

It seems that you still fail to see how most of these instant-funding models work. They are not providing much value to you as a trader, over trading your own account, and certainly are not better than traditional models.

I never said that traditional models were the holy grail. I simply think that most of them offer a better value over other options.

I may be annoying, and I will admit when I am wrong about things, but do not expect people to remain silent when you are rude to them, especially when all they are trying to do is help you. It is okay to disagree, and it is your choice whether or not you want to listen to others. But you were the one that asked us what we think, and you were the one that chose to set the tone when you decided to say something offensive to the people that were only trying to help you:

Quoting Mtinifx
I would say that their OTF direct funding model is possibly attractive?...What do you guys think??
Quoting Mtinifx
Can't agree with any of you I'm afraid...Some of you guys need to go back to school

...so playing the innocent victim and getting annoyed when people present facts that contradict with your opinions seems questionable.

I am not trying to be critical. The numbers speak for themselves. It is clear that you are not interested in facts, but only care about your own opinion. That is fine with me.

Regarding the instant-funding models, I used to think that they were good, just like you. I even argued like you are doing now, because I knew that I was right. But after giving a lot more thought to it, I realized that there was no way of truly knowing whether or not I was actually trading a large account. Furthermore, I realized that simply by doubling my starting capital on a personal account, I could achieve the exact same results as one of these accelerated programs, except, I would be able to keep all of the profits and be able to withdraw them whenever I wanted.

Couple these things with the obvious benefits that traditional models offer, and the argument ends there.

I understand that some of the traditional offerings may not be favorable to some traders. Whether they have limited funds, or need more time to trade etc.. Which is why I offered other solutions that you may consider. You are free to do as you wish with your own money, though.
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