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  • #5,541
  • Nov 17, 2021 11:58am Nov 17, 2021 11:58am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}The problem with those direct funding, accelerated type programs where the buy-in fee matches the draw-down, is that you never really know if you are being given a large account to trade with. They could secretly match your buy-in fee with the same amount of funds, and put the combined funds into an account that has a lot more leverage (notice how the leverage on such accounts is always smaller?)
Even if that is true, I don't even care what's happening on the back end as long as the front end numbers/results end up the same.

Quoting Nsak3y
If the above is true, and prop firms are simply matching your buy-in fee and throwing the funds into a high-leverage account, then you are still flipping/compounding your account in order to scale up with these accelerated-type programs. It's the same thing, except you are forfeiting half of your profits to them.
So let's say I sign up for the5ers $6,000 instant funding low risk program. I send them $266 or so. Let's say I reach the $375 profit target. They send me half of that and "quadruple" the account. So now the account is "$24,000" and they sent me $187.5. So now I'm still down $78.50 but I can quadruple my expectancy and my new account closing risk is "$1,000". They supposedly are up $453.30 at this point, their cut of the $375 + the $266 I sent them. However, now I can lose up to "$1,000" with them before getting booted out and make 4x the profits. So let's say I hit the next target @ 10%, so +$2400. So now I get a check for $1200, and they're up a total of $1653.50, and the account gets "doubled" to "48,000" with a wipeout loss of $2,000. So if I lose $2,000 on that account, they are down $346.50 and I'm up $1,121.50. As far as I can tell, they are exposed to more and more risk with each account size growth tier, while I am exposed to none of it. Granted, the cost of this is the 50% split, and possibly even a slowdown of compounding depending on what risk % I'm willing to tolerate on compounding my own account.

Once I reach the max account size with them, the max loss would be $53,333 or so to get booted out of the program. Obviously their risk is much lower than that, as it is padded by previous profits, but they still have some risk. Of course, once I've made enough profit for their 50% cut to cover that risk, they are basically risking nothing anymore, and neither am I. So all in all, it starts out with me risking some money and them risking nothing. Then as things succeed with a trader, they start risking some money with the trader risking nothing, but not a lot (unless they're over-leveraging on the back-end, tssk tssk!), and then finally, once the trader reaches the max account size and churns sufficient profit, nobody is risking anything anymore (save for black swan events) and the 50/50 split continues.

I guess my point is, I fail to see what the problem is with these back-end shenanigan conspiracy theories (true as they might be) unless they might be causing the firm to become insolvent. Now, based on some calculations I just made, it indeed may be faster, even a lot faster, to compound using one's own money... BUT, there are also disadvantages too. I'm thinking of different scenarios and how they might play out
  • #5,542
  • Nov 17, 2021 12:14pm Nov 17, 2021 12:14pm
Quoting profitfarmer
{quote} there is a few things some may also need to factor: circumstances. for example, i see 'MaxOr' from the USA....50:1 leverage, no hedge....less then impressive trading costs at Oanda or Forex.com... coupled potentially with the issue to scale to equity the trades ( if you have a small acct of 500$, adjusting lot size doesn't carry anything comparable to the precision to adjust lot size on 50k)... and perhaps the chance to see the bigger picture clearer, ie gamble more responsible vs on a small to tiny personal acct. not to mention, if in the...
Yes indeed and thank you for noticing. I see you have an eye for detail I've been finding Forex.com a great way to do historical analysis with demo accounts, as Oanda is really bad at providing data history at least on MT4, but dear god man. Forex.com spreads are the worst I've ever seen. They make Oanda look like rock bottom spreads, and I know they're not good either . My spreadsheets take into account Oanda spreads, as I would NEEEEVER trade with forex.com spreads. At least Oanda spreads are manageable.

I also hate FIFO because I like being able to open multiple pieces and then close individual ones at the drop of a hat. But FIFO forces me to make them different sizes in case I "accidentally" close them in the wrong order with the same size. I'd prefer to open 10 positions of a 1/10 standard size, all the same size, instead of having to adjust size a few times and then having a hodge-podge of different sized pieces on. I plan on being able to handle positions on multiple pairs at once and I don't have time for bullshit FIFO trade management. I don't care about hedging as I just do stoplosses, but that same size trade order opening/closing shit...

Additionally, the spreads I'm seeing on the 5ers, even with their commissions added, are vastly, VASTLY superior to what I'd get on Oanda, and my exit strategy involves taking high probability profits with 50% of the position as the move hits 5%-10% ADR (after spread). These initial scalp profits would be greatly increased, as well as winrate, and risk reduction, by having superior spreads. It doesn't make or break my system, but boy howdy can it make things better. I remember seeing posts about their spreads being bad years ago, but I assume that as they've grown their firm with more successful traders, they have been able to get access to better spreads.

I've recently heard they are being very risk averse with the CHF now, and introducing lower leverage and higher spreads for CHF pairs, which pisses me off, but out of 28 pairs to trade (all of which I watch) it's not a huge deal if CHF is taken off the table. Who knows, maybe the leverage/spreads would still be fine for it for me.

Now, I could go overseas to a 200+ leverage account, put just a small amount of money in, and some of these brokers have good reputations. Only problem is, it seems most of them WILL NOT deal with U.S. citizens. WOW. So that really fucks with me, and even if Oanda spreads are fine with me (which they are), the leverage is terrible. It's fine on EUR/USD, but it goes down to like 20 on GBP/JPY for example. This just complicates things more. To be fair, 5ers leverage is crap too on the low risk program, but after a few more months of spreadsheeting, sample collection and paper/real$ small money trading, I may come to find the 30x leverage program would be a slam dunk. If so, I will go with that. 30x will be more than enough achieve sufficient size within their risk parameters. On 6x, I couldn't even risk enough on a single EUR/USD trade.
  • #5,543
  • Nov 17, 2021 12:58pm Nov 17, 2021 12:58pm
Quoting Max0r
{quote} Now that I re-examine the issue, I did notice that I made a big mistake in that the expectancy per trade when looking at using my own money was lower, risking less actual $ per trade. So this throws the numbers into question. I'm considering different scenarios and if my brain doesn't explode I will get back to you >_<
Ok so I did some new calculations and basically, yes, compounding can be much faster with one's own money. I basically decided to match the max account risk up to the worst case drawdown scenario being the same loss as sending $266 or whatever to the 5ers and then bombing out completely with no profit payout. So if I want to achieve that type of risk on Oanda, I would need to lock up nearly $1,500 in that account, which I can't afford to do. I don't want to lock up more than $500 of my money. But if I want to be able to achieve that same $ expectancy/risk per trade as I'd be doing on the 5ers with the 6k insta-funding, that means I need to go overseas to a 200+ leverage account, and I REALLY don't want to lock up more than 250-300 overseas at this time, especially not with a forex broker. And because I'm in the U.S. almost no brokers will work with me. Now, with 400+ leverage, I can achieve that expectancy/risk and even with the worst type of expected drawdown, that foreign account would still have enough $ left in it to keep doing the same position sizes. But with a 200x account, I'd have to put more money into it if it drew down too much (which it easily could with a worst case drawdown scenario) in order to not have to reduce position sizes.

And that's just the first problem.

The 2nd problem is that even if I overcome that issue, the only way to maintain the superior compounding rate is to not withdraw, or only withdraw a tiny amount compared to the overall size. Well, that represents a serious risk, especially overseas. Even if the broker is not dodgy/suddenly-insolvent, having all your money that was built up sitting in a forex account represents an exposure risk. Black swan events during a day trade could wipe it out. Even without positions open, a black swan event might wipe out the broker anyway, or tie them up. So to reduce risk of losing everything, and to realize some gains, money must be taken out. But that SEVERELY slows down the compounding, and can easily make the compounding the same rate as with the prop firm 50/50 payout, or even make it WORSE. The compounding I'm talking about isn't "account size" compounding, it's expectancy $ profit (to me) per trade compounding (that includes the 50% cut taken out on the prop firm side).

By working with a prop firm insta-funding program, the compounding of per-trade $ expectancy is still exponential thanks to the easy profit targets + quadrupling and then doubling of account size. And the best part is, my cut of the profit just gets sent to me, and the compounding continues regardless. So that's exponentially increasing $ in my hand, + a high expectancy compounding rate, + zero account exposure risk. And if I choose, I can dump some of that cash into my own forex dealer account and trade that too!

The 3rd problem is spreads. Now, maybe if I solve the 1st problem, I'll have access to a very good spread/commission regime, but I have my doubts I'd get anywhere near as good spreads anywhere as I would with the5ers. My system would work much better with those spreads. Now, supposedly, based on what I'm seeing so far, it should still be great with Oanda spreads. But the difference is quite stark, and a large bulk of the profits will come from high probability 5-10% ADR initial scalp profits + stop raising/lowering in case the move fails to have any real juice.

So as I see it, the prop firm route is, short term, the most desirable way for me to go. The compounding is still fast, and it is much less anxiety inducing. And literally, the first time I get a $1200 payout, well, my financial situation will already be revolutionized, and I could just as easily start trading that too if I wanted. There's a good chance that if I just trade my own money, I'd be forced to trade smaller, if for no other reason than I don't have access to the brokers/leverage needed in order to trade bigger without running into serious potential risks/issues. In which case, the compounding WOULD be slower
  • #5,544
  • Nov 17, 2021 1:09pm Nov 17, 2021 1:09pm
Quoting Max0r
{quote} Ok so I did some new calculations and basically, yes, compounding can be much faster with one's own money. I basically decided to match the max account risk up to the worst case drawdown scenario being the same loss as sending $266 or whatever to the 5ers and then bombing out completely with no profit payout. So if I want to achieve that type of risk on Oanda, I would need to lock up nearly $1,500 in that account, which I can't afford to do. I don't want to lock up more than $500 of my money. But if I want to be able to achieve that same...
Just keep in mind, that double scaling at 10% with 4% dd is a 250% return in your personal account. Before I started trading with MFF and FTMO, I was overseas as well and still keep 1 personal account open at an offshore broker. Yes, you cannot trade with US brokers, leverage, FIFO, no indices, no gold, etc, etc. The key to risk mitigation is take your "trading capital" and keep 70% in your FDIC insured bank account, keep 15% at FDIC insured coinbase, just in case you need to move quickly and only keep 15% with the actual broker. Your risk per trade will be based on your total "trading capital", but if you use a 500:1 broker, you only need to deposit a small %. Example, let's say you have 10K to trade with, you only put $1500 (15%) with the broker. You wish to risk 2% of your 10K per trade ($200). You trade the GBPUSD, let's say a 40 pip stop, so risking $200 with a 40 pip stop is $5 per pip (half a standard). That would require $2500 in margin in the US, it only requires $100 with a 500:1 broker. So 15% of your total bankroll is fine with a 500:1 broker, you can still use your same risk model but 85% of your money is safe. YOU'RE WELCOME!!!
  • #5,545
  • Nov 17, 2021 2:34pm Nov 17, 2021 2:34pm
Quoting Max0r
So let's say I sign up for the5ers
-My comment was in reference to MFF, since most of the accelerated programs are structured similarly to that. I am not overly familiar with 5ers, since none of their offerings ever seemed appealing to me.

Nonetheless, my previous comment still stands:

If someone gave you a $2 million account to trade with, and told you that your draw-down allowance was 2K, is it really a $2 million account? And if you paid 2K non-refundable for that account, then guess what...you're trading your own money.

And even if the numbers do work out in the trader's favor, and the draw-down is greater than the buy-in fee, the overall benefits of draw-down allowance and higher profit split on traditional models will likely far outweigh the benefits of immediate trading on instant-funding models over the long-term, especially when you consider rate of growth relative to risk exposure.

And even though you may not be required to complete a challenge phase for instant-funding models, they typically are not refundable. Whereas, with a traditional model, you not only get your money back, thus immediately removing all risk for the trader upon successful completion, but you also have to factor in that added capital buffer that is returned to you (that could be used to purchase more accounts), that you would literally have to earn back on an instant funding model. Because of this, the time and risk spent earning your own money back, is little different than the time and risk spent taking the challenge, except, with the challenge, you are generally afforded more draw-down allowance to achieve your goals.
  • #5,546
  • Nov 17, 2021 2:57pm Nov 17, 2021 2:57pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} Just keep in mind, that double scaling at 10% with 4% dd is a 250% return in your personal account. Before I started trading with MFF and FTMO, I was overseas as well and still keep 1 personal account open at an offshore broker. Yes, you cannot trade with US brokers, leverage, FIFO, no indices, no gold, etc, etc. The key to risk mitigation is take your "trading capital" and keep 70% in your FDIC insured bank account, keep 15% at FDIC insured coinbase, just in case you need to move quickly and only keep 15% with the actual broker. Your risk...
Right but what reputable 500x broker will work with people in the US? Are you trying to avoid looking like a shill for any brokers by recommending them? Is it a state secret? Sorry if I come across as lazy and entitled. I like to occasionally do that to filter out the bootstraps types. I do plan on eventually finding a good 500x broker though. Based on the numbers, it seems like it should be a good way to compound very fast, even with some withdrawals just to pad my regular bank account, since the 500x has much more tolerance for account size diminishment. A 200x would not work for that. Furthermore, can I expect anywhere close to comparable spreads with one of these 500x overseas U.S. resident/citizen working-with brokers as I would see on the5ers? Granted, I'm sure they'd be better than Oanda, so it shouldn't be an issue.

I find it difficult to find good info on brokers, it seems like all the discussion is a bunch of conspiracy theory bug-eyed ranting
  • #5,547
  • Nov 17, 2021 3:14pm Nov 17, 2021 3:14pm
Quoting Max0r
{quote} Right but what reputable 500x broker will work with people in the US? Are you trying to avoid looking like a shill for any brokers by recommending them? Is it a state secret? Sorry if I come across as lazy and entitled. I like to occasionally do that to filter out the bootstraps types. I do plan on eventually finding a good 500x broker though. Based on the numbers, it seems like it should be a good way to compound very fast, even with some withdrawals just to pad my regular bank account, since the 500x has much more tolerance for account...
I PM'd you.
  • #5,548
  • Nov 17, 2021 3:34pm Nov 17, 2021 3:34pm
Quoting Nsak3y
If someone gave you a $2 million account to trade with, and told you that your draw-down allowance was 2K, is it really a $2 million account? And if you paid 2K non-refundable for that account, then guess what...you're trading your own money.
Well, if I pay 266 for 250 drawdown allowance and hit multiple targets my drawdown allowance and expectancy per trade while staying within risk parameters increases exponentially, and I get 50% profit payouts, and the account gets doubled over and over until it hits 1.28 million with 6x or 30x leverage, and my expectancy 50% split per trade is $1,500 or so (maybe much higher if new protocol stats turn out to be as good as they are appearing to be), and my max DD is around 53k or whatever, am I trading my own money? I mean, I guess you could say I am, since that compounding can also be done with a personal account. But if I end up losing big or the bank/broker takes a hit on a black swan event am I trading my own money? Am I losing my own money?

Quoting Nsak3y
And even if the numbers do work out in the trader's favor, and the draw-down is greater than the buy-in fee, the overall benefits of draw-down allowance and higher profit split on traditional models will likely far outweigh the benefits of immediate trading on instant-funding models over the long-term, especially when you consider rate of growth relative to risk exposure. And even though you may not be required to complete a challenge phase for instant-funding models, they typically are not refundable. Whereas, with a traditional model, you not...
Those challenges have really hardball targets/time-limits and aren't worth the stress. They also tend to have a bunch of stupid rules. I love the freedom and simplicity and relatively relaxed goals of the insta-fund programs. Hitting targets on them will very quickly pay for the initial fee and then some with the increased expectancy. With the 5ers you can start at the bottom tier and work all the way up to the top tier, so it's not so bad. Granted, the ultimate freedom/simplicity would just be trading my own money. If I can find a good enough overseas 500x broker that will work with people in the US, I might just end up doing that.
  • #5,549
  • Nov 17, 2021 3:36pm Nov 17, 2021 3:36pm
The only 2 positive things I see in direct funding vs own account are:

1. If we experience a huge weekend gap or a sudden thing like the CHF peg a couple of years ago. This can wipe a personal account (and even a negative balance), while in a prop firm the loss is just the entry fee.

2. Fiscal reasons because this is a shady industry, out of CRS reporting and paying in cryptos.

None of them are enough to convince me, though.

I don't think these are enough to overtake the huge disadvantage of a profit split (instead of 100% profits), among other things like business risk, unreliable brokers, discretionary interpretation of rules, etc.
  • #5,550
  • Edited 4:48pm Nov 17, 2021 4:21pm | Edited 4:48pm
Joined to ask if anyone has heard of www.bluegaurdiancapital.com ? Saw them shared on discords and someone said they got paid but want to know if anyone knows if they're legit in here.
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  • #5,551
  • Nov 17, 2021 5:28pm Nov 17, 2021 5:28pm
Quoting mlseenie
Joined to ask if anyone has heard of www.bluegaurdiancapital.com ? Saw them shared on discords and someone said they got paid but want to know if anyone knows if they're legit in here. {image}
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Pride always comes before destruction.... -Proverbs 16:18
  • #5,552
  • Nov 17, 2021 5:32pm Nov 17, 2021 5:32pm
Quoting Expo33
{quote} {image}
lol
  • #5,553
  • Nov 17, 2021 5:33pm Nov 17, 2021 5:33pm
Quoting mlseenie
Joined to ask if anyone has heard of www.bluegaurdiancapital.com ? Saw them shared on discords and someone said they got paid but want to know if anyone knows if they're legit in here. {image}
Their prices, targets, rules are decent for me but this infantile nonsense doesn't appeal to me. I'm sure their target market is a bit younger than me.
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For "real' prop firms try the "prop firm delete" thread.
Pride always comes before destruction.... -Proverbs 16:18
  • #5,554
  • Nov 17, 2021 5:40pm Nov 17, 2021 5:40pm
Quoting Expo33
{quote} Their prices, targets, rules are decent for me but this infantile nonsense doesn't appeal to me. I'm sure their target market is a bit younger than me. {image} For "real' prop firms try the "prop firm delete" thread.
Maybe they're not very good looking ahahha
  • #5,555
  • Nov 17, 2021 6:27pm Nov 17, 2021 6:27pm
Quoting Max0r
Those challenges have really hardball targets/time-limits and aren't worth the stress. They also tend to have a bunch of stupid rules. I love the freedom and simplicity and relatively relaxed goals of the insta-fund programs. Hitting targets on them will very quickly pay for the initial fee and then some with the increased expectancy. With the 5ers you can start at the bottom tier and work all the way up to the top tier, so it's not so bad.
-Most of these programs require you to hit targets that are exactly like flipping/compounding your account (or more). Your profits serve as draw-down for the scale-up in most cases. Again, not sure about 5ers, but in most cases, the scale-up is an illusion because it is the draw-down that matters, not the account size, and in most cases, it is your profits that are serving as draw-down, whether directly or indirectly.

If what you have found is good for you, then go for it. You seem to have convinced yourself well enough, and I am certainly not trying to dissuade you, as I already said that I do not know the details of the program that you are looking at. I am simply explaining why most of these instant-funding type programs are not worth it, comparatively-speaking.
  • #5,556
  • Nov 17, 2021 9:07pm Nov 17, 2021 9:07pm
Blue Guardian Capital has a payout cap of 4% each month, see below from their site
==============================================
Traders are entitled to 80% of the profit generated under the Payout Cap.

E.g. If you are trading a 100k account and make $3,000(3%) (< $4,000(4%) Payout Cap). You will receive 80% Profit Split = $2,400 .

If the traders monthly profit is larger then the Payout Cap they will receive a 100% Profit Split of the 4%. Anything above the Payout Cap will stay in your account and you can withdraw it the following month.

E.g. Trading a 100k account:

If you make $4,500(4.5%), you will receive 100% of the of the first $4,000(4%). The remaining $500 will stay in your account.

We do this so we can maintain payouts as well as offer the best market parameters.
  • #5,557
  • Nov 17, 2021 9:12pm Nov 17, 2021 9:12pm
Yeah, some of these firms are thinking outside of the box in the wrong kind of way.

If it doesn't benefit traders, we're not interested.
  • #5,558
  • Nov 17, 2021 9:52pm Nov 17, 2021 9:52pm
Quoting Nsak3y
Yeah, some of these firms are thinking outside of the box in the wrong kind of way. If it doesn't benefit traders, we're not interested.
i only make around 4% a month anyway do you think its worth it. What do you think they need to improve on
  • #5,559
  • Nov 17, 2021 10:14pm Nov 17, 2021 10:14pm
Quoting mlseenie
i only make around 4% a month anyway do you think its worth it. What do you think they need to improve on
-Serious question?
  • #5,560
  • Nov 17, 2021 10:29pm Nov 17, 2021 10:29pm
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote}-Serious question?
well yes. They have the lowest target, allow 1:100, ea’s, weekend holding, trading news, the only bad thing i see if the drawdown limits and the payout cap. But for me i only make under 4% anyway so if anything its better because if i make 4% i get 100% which is equal to like 5% with ftmo. I think to improve they need to increase the drawdown limits and either remove or increase that payout cap rule but apart from that it looks decent. So many new firms these days it hard to keep track of all the models
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