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FTMO - For serious traders

  • #8,061
  • Nov 4, 2021 12:04pm Nov 4, 2021 12:04pm
Hi Vitek - or anyone else from FTMO

I'm experiencing an unpleasant situation about my verification process which I passed successfully (confirmed in my client zone and received my certificate) but subsequently my trades have been rejected by your Trading department for attempting an alleged volume arbitration.

I contacted you support many times via email with no response whatsoever, calls to your support line or online chat is not helpful in any way as they say they are not permitted to involve into this type of complaints

I reject the accusation of volume arbitration. I passed the verification successfully which was confirmed. I have not broken any rule. My whole verification account history is publicly available here on myfxbook.

For more information about my case please follow the discussion in another forum - starting from this post - and/or check the [email protected] mailbox

My account page here

I appreciate your help
Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #8,062
  • Edited 1:24pm Nov 4, 2021 12:57pm | Edited 1:24pm
Quoting Vitore
Hi Vitek - or anyone else from FTMO I'm experiencing an unpleasant situation about my verification process which I passed successfully (confirmed in my client zone and received my certificate) but subsequently my trades have been rejected by your Trading department for attempting an alleged volume arbitration. I contacted you support many times via email with no response whatsoever, calls to your support line or online chat is not helpful in any way as they say they are not permitted to involve into this type of complaints I reject the accusation...
FTMO should have clear, quantifiable rules in place for this type of cases. Customers should not be the target of discretionary subjective judgements.

Is it possible to have quantifiable rules? Of course, other firms have them, sometimes ridicule I agree. But at least will not leave margin for doubts in cases like this. It is not reasonable to leave this type of decisions in the subjective hands of a non-independent Grande Juri (I mean some Technical Support, or Account Reviewer individual).

If someone is trading a 200K account what is the maximum amount of DOT lots (contracts) he/she can open? Better you establish a figure instead of blaming the trader.
Follow your guts, if you want to lose your money...
  • #8,063
  • Edited 3:27am Nov 5, 2021 2:38am | Edited 3:27am
A brief history of my FTMO journey (to date):

  1. Oct 15

    1. Registered for the 200k Challenge, received account and started trading

  2. Oct 24

    1. Challenge passed, confirmed by FTMO, account here
    2. Verification account assigned by FTMO, started trading

  3. Nov 2

    1. Verification passed, confirmed by FTMO, account here

  4. Nov 3

    1. Email received in which FTMO rejected my verification trades for an alleged volume arbitration on the DOTUSD symbol
    2. 1st email response sent to FTMO - no reaction
    3. contacted support via on-line chat - got information they could not help me for they are not permitted to access cases of "forbidden trading practices", advised to send an email
    4. 2nd email to FTMO - no reaction

  5. Nov 4

    1. 3rd and 4th emails to FTMO - no reaction
    2. Call to the support phone line - phone number does not exist (! published on their website)
    3. Another call to a different phone number - they were not permitted to access my case neither could they put me through to the responsible person. I was assured they are passing my complain right away to the responsible person who will reach back to me instantly

  6. Nov 5

    1. 5th email sent
    2. Still no response to any of my attempts to communicate and clarify my verification trades


Vitek, FTMO - do you find this a professional and respectful way of treating your customers?

I let alone the fact that the whole case stinks as you nowhere limited the crypto (or any other instrument) volumes allowed for trading the challenge and verification accounts, that your own trading platform allows to trade up to 100mil (!) contracts of DOT in one single order, and your own trading platform's DoM indicates 10mil (!) contracts of DOT available at the market price all the time.

Placing a DOT $450k market order (equiv. to 4.5 lots FX, or 250 Oz Gold) might be a volume arbitration perhaps in traders' wet dreams, but for a professional prop firm?? Please check up the actual market trading volumes of DOT here

Awaiting FTMO to start communicating with me on this topic as I refuse being accused of using any forbidden trading practices on my verification account. My trades are available on myfxbook for anyone to review and make their own unbiased opinion.

Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #8,064
  • Nov 5, 2021 3:56am Nov 5, 2021 3:56am
Vitore, to be honest after looking at your challenge/verification trades, were I FTMO I would certainly be very concerned about letting you loose with $200k of my investor's money. I know you have technically traded within the basic rules but by getting lucky to burn through the profit target in 4 massive & risky trades in one day then spinning through the other 9 days of the minimum trading period with micro lot trades you most certainly did not trade within the spirit of the procedure - and I suspect you are fully aware you have tried to game the system by doing this.

Looking at FTMO's T&Cs I would most certainly think you breached clause 5.4.2 which in turn has resulted in all or some of clauses 5.5, 5.6 and 5.7 being enforced which in my opinion (granted only an opinion) FTMO are quite justified in doing.

Ultimately Clause 7 also applies "If the Customer is successful in both the Challenge and Verification, the Customer may be offered a contract by a third-party company, in its sole discretion to participate in the FTMO Trader Program." - Note "may be offered" which is not a guarantee nor is one implied.

Let's face it, you pretty obviously tried to be clever and game the system. The title of this thread is self explanatory - for serious traders, not gamblers. You got lucky with a few big and risky trades to pass the requirements and are now making a bit of noise because your tactic hasn't paid off.
  • #8,065
  • Nov 5, 2021 4:06am Nov 5, 2021 4:06am
Quoting Vitore
A brief history of my FTMO journey (to date): Oct 15 Registered for the 200k Challenge, received account and started trading Oct 24 Challenge passed, confirmed by FTMO, account here Verification account assigned by FTMO, started trading Nov 2 Verification passed, confirmed by FTMO, account here Nov 3 Email received in which FTMO rejected my verification trades for an alleged volume arbitration on the DOTUSD symbol 1st email...
Your trades are very sketchy i have to say so myself also, altough i dont know if FTMO can be this discretionary when allowing someone to get an FTMO account because ive seen before sketchy traders who passed verification and challenge phases also with odd risky trading practices, so im curious what FTMO will say about this one, idk what volume arbitrage is also... but did u use more margin that you had capital for ? because i saw in ftmo challenges u can use more margin than what money u have, maybe u did that
  • #8,066
  • Nov 5, 2021 4:16am Nov 5, 2021 4:16am
Quoting snowdonred
Vitore, to be honest after looking at your challenge/verification trades, were I FTMO I would certainly be very concerned about letting you loose with $200k of my investor's money. I know you have technically traded within the basic rules but by getting lucky to burn through the profit target in 4 massive & risky trades in one day then spinning through the other 9 days of the minimum trading period with micro lot trades you most certainly did not trade within the spirit of the procedure - and I suspect you are fully aware you have tried to game...
But where exactly is it said it stated that you shouldn't or can't attempt to hit the profit targets with one or two big risky trades and coast through the remaining minimum days?
If that is "gaming the system", then about 85-90% of FTMO passed evaluations involve the system being gamed.... And FTMO has never had an issue with it because there are no rules prohibiting such high risk practices, so long as risk limits are respected.
So this point is irrelevant IMO.

I Also don't think this has anything to do with how much was traded or how many lots were purchased. There's no stated max lot size, so that is not the accusation
Volume arbitrage is not " trading too big of a position "....
  • #8,067
  • Nov 5, 2021 4:25am Nov 5, 2021 4:25am
Quoting snowdonred
Looking at FTMO's T&Cs I would most certainly think you breached clause 5.4.2 which in turn has resulted in all or some of clauses 5.5, 5.6 and 5.7 being enforced which in my opinion (granted only an opinion) FTMO are quite justified in doing. Ultimately Clause 7 also applies "If the Customer is successful in both the Challenge and Verification, the Customer may be offered a contract by a third-party company, in its sole discretion to participate in the FTMO Trader Program." - Note "may be offered" which is not a guarantee nor is one implied. Let's...
To start with many of these clauses are vague and tailored to do anything the Seller (FTMO) wants to do. They are probably illegal in court, in particular in an EU country.
Let me see
Quote
5.4.2.Furthermore, Customer shall not exploit the Services by performing trades without applying market standard risk management rules for trading on financial markets, this includes, among others, the following practices (i) opening substantially larger position sizes compared to Customer’s other trades, whether on this or any other Customer’s account, or (ii) opening substantially smaller or larger number of positions compared to Customer’s other trades, whether on this or any other Customer’s account...

1- What are standard risk management rules? He may have used a large lot but the stop loss might have been at a very short distance.
For people that has no idea about risk (almost everybody), 1 lot of EURUSD with SL at 100 pips from Entry Point has the same risk as 10 lots of EURUSD with SL at 10 pips from Entry Point. Sure, discounting spread, slippage and all that.
2- What is substantially larger position sizes? Where is the consistency rule to define that? Nothing is defined, the customer is in the hands of the Account Reviewer that works for FTMO.

Everything is arbitrary using vague undefined terms. The customer is 100% in the hands of the Seller (FTMO).
Follow your guts, if you want to lose your money...
  • #8,068
  • Nov 5, 2021 4:26am Nov 5, 2021 4:26am
Quoting Koop
{quote} But where exactly is it said it stated that you shouldn't or can't attempt to hit the profit targets with one or two big risky trades and coast through the remaining minimum days? If that is "gaming the system", then about 85-90% of FTMO passed evaluations involve the system being gamed.... And FTMO has never had an issue with it because there are no rules prohibiting such high risk practices, so long as risk limits are respected. So this point is irrelevant IMO. I Also don't think this has anything to do with how much was traded or how...
It doesn't say you can't do that that which I conceded in my post if you go back and read again.

However although it does not state this specifically, common sense/common decency should make it pretty clear trading like this is not in the spirit of the challenges and in doing so you risk being excluded by any of the failsafe 'default' clauses FTMO (or any prop firm) has in their T&C which entitle them to say "thanks but no thanks" to any prospective customer for any reason.
  • #8,069
  • Nov 5, 2021 4:34am Nov 5, 2021 4:34am
And congratulations for the Paintball Match.

Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: fab8428c4f612b2e3568469c29e711f3.png Size: 591 KB


Customers love to know everything about FTMO social life.
Follow your guts, if you want to lose your money...
  • #8,070
  • Nov 5, 2021 5:04am Nov 5, 2021 5:04am
Quoting Vitore
A brief history of my FTMO journey (to date): Oct 15 Registered for the 200k Challenge, received account and started trading Oct 24 Challenge passed, confirmed by FTMO, account here Verification account assigned by FTMO, started trading Nov 2 Verification passed, confirmed by FTMO, account here Nov 3 Email received in which FTMO rejected my verification trades for an alleged volume arbitration on the DOTUSD symbol 1st email...
The Nov 3rd email stated precisely why they invalidate your account. Nothing else needs to be said.
Trade with confidence, trade without fear.
  • #8,071
  • Nov 5, 2021 5:09am Nov 5, 2021 5:09am
Quoting snowdonred
I know you have technically traded within the basic rules but by getting lucky to burn through the profit target in 4 massive & risky trades in one day then spinning through the other 9 days of the minimum trading period with micro lot trades you most certainly did not trade within the spirit of the procedure.
4 massive and risky trades? He only had to make 5%. If those trading opportunities occured in one day then so what.

And also like someone else pointed out, coasting through the minimum days using micro fillers is pretty much standard practice. You would have to be an idiot to put your equity at risk after hitting a target, are you saying FTMO are looking for idiots. A question to you is... lets say you hit 10.2% in 5 days.....how are you going to negotiate around the next 5 trading days....take 5 trades at 1% risk behave yourself mate.

Ive seen a few challenge passes recently where the trader got into massive drawdown, then bet the farm on 1 trade and passed (as shown by the massive V-bottom equity curve).

And also like JotaP pointed out, if your using risk based position sizing then lot sizes can look bigger with a smaller stop loss despite using the same percentage of risk. What kind of lot size do you reckon the drawdown home runners were going for when the passed??

Have you read all Vitore's posts over at "The Prop Firm" thread which goes into more detail?

Surely it looks suspicious, not only because they wont reply to his emails and get all cards on the table to discuss the matter thoroughly, but also because they happen to have deleted the Verification stats so that the trades cant be analysed, but they happen to have left the Phase 1 stats alone.... pretty wierd if you ask me.
  • #8,072
  • Nov 5, 2021 5:12am Nov 5, 2021 5:12am
Quoting snowdonred
Vitore, to be honest after looking at your challenge/verification trades, were I FTMO I would certainly be very concerned about letting you loose with $200k of my investor's money. I know you have technically traded within the basic rules but by getting lucky to burn through the profit target in 4 massive & risky trades in one day then spinning through the other 9 days of the minimum trading period with micro lot trades you most certainly did not trade within the spirit of the procedure - and I suspect you are fully aware you have tried to game...
Of course I was trying to pass and of course I did what I was allowed by the published FTMO rules to meet the target. But I don't agree with that my trades were massive and risky. Yes, I started more aggressive and was prepared to give up on the trades should my DD reach about 3% (while being allowed for 5% or 10% respectively). I was scaling up into the positions as the trend went into my way and kept them protected in profit. Even if the trend eventually reverted after I was fully scaled in I would still end up in profit.

Those trades lasted many hours while my total DD was less than 2.7%. That shows they were not oversized, I was planning the volumes, entries and exits carefully, monitoring the trades all the time, and was not exposed to any wild markets moves. In average those trades made over 1000 pips each. No 5min scalping, no guessing and hoping for the best.

I'm fully aware of the fact this was an exceptional profit made but such trading days occur. Any single FTMO trader can be accused of breaching the clause 5.4.2. and the subsequent ones. It is nothing else then a mean to get rid of ANY trader they don't like. I fully understand that, it's a sad reality of all prop firms, not only FTMO.

I don't agree my trades fulfill the criteria of the volume arbitraging. But I fully accept that the trading style I applied (= scaling into a winning positions in order to meet the profit target) may not be what FTMO likes or expects. But then they should make it transparent and clear to traders by publishing the specific volume limits - some other prop firms do it.

And I was prepared to discuss all that with the FTMO since the very beginning, and before going public.
The problem is FTMO is not willing to communicate
Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #8,073
  • Nov 5, 2021 5:20am Nov 5, 2021 5:20am
Quoting Cryptosurf
{quote} The Nov 3rd email stated precisely why they invalidate your account. Nothing else needs to be said.
Yes, they stated it, that's ok.

I responded them asking for a review of their decision by a responsible person, offering my reasons and supporting facts why I believe they should not be classified as forbidden practice.

They never come back to me ever since...

Nothing else to be said.
Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #8,074
  • Nov 5, 2021 5:29am Nov 5, 2021 5:29am
First response from FTMO received just now:

"Please be reassured that your case has not been left unattended. This case is a higher profile one so it can not be discussed on standard communication channels like Live Chat or call. Our team is currently under higher-than-usual pressure and despite usual replies may occur at a faster rate depending on the overall lower administrative pressure, the standard reply time is within 1-2 business days. For this reason, I kindly ask you to allow us for further time to double check the case based on your new observations. However, you can expect a reply within today.


Thank you for your understanding."


So I'm putting this case on hold here for now.

Thanks for your support
Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #8,075
  • Nov 5, 2021 5:32am Nov 5, 2021 5:32am
Just to add something about lot size.

GBPUSD, 3 pip stop loss on a 200k account. (One of those nice sniper entries that smart money style traders seem to like).

4% risk - well within the daily drawdown parameters and im very sure that this kind of trade size would be a common occurrence due to the amount of hail mary challenge passes.

Lot Size for this trade???? 266.67 lots.
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  • #8,076
  • Nov 5, 2021 5:34am Nov 5, 2021 5:34am
Quoting Vitore
First response from FTMO received just now: "Please be reassured that your case has not been left unattended. This case is a higher profile one so it can not be discussed on standard communication channels like Live Chat or call. Our team is currently under higher-than-usual pressure and despite usual replies may occur at a faster rate depending on the overall lower administrative pressure, the standard reply time is within 1-2 business days. For this reason, I kindly ask you to allow us for further time to double check the case based on your new...
Nice one mate, at least your getting some progress.
  • #8,077
  • Nov 5, 2021 5:56am Nov 5, 2021 5:56am
Quoting Vitore
{quote} Yes, they stated it, that's ok. I responded them asking for a review of their decision by a responsible person, offering my reasons and supporting facts why I believe they should not be classified as forbidden practice. They never come back to me ever since... Nothing else to be said.
Remember i was the nearly the first one to suggest you bring it here to get their attention. And yet you still rambled on about it with dozens of posts on the Prop Firm thread for whatever reasons.
Trade with confidence, trade without fear.
  • #8,078
  • Nov 5, 2021 6:06am Nov 5, 2021 6:06am
Quoting Cryptosurf
{quote} Remember i was the nearly the first one to suggest you bring it here to get their attention. And yet you still rambled on about it with dozens of posts on the Prop Firm thread for whatever reasons.
And I told you why I did it this way. If you don't understand it's your problem, not mine.
They responded after I sent them 5th email and called twice. No one from FTMO responded to my post here yet. Coincidence does not mean causality.
Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #8,079
  • Nov 5, 2021 6:18am Nov 5, 2021 6:18am
Quoting Vitore
{quote} And I told you why I did it this way. If you don't understand it's your problem, not mine. They responded after I sent them 5th email and called twice. No one from FTMO responded to my post here yet. Coincidence does not mean causality.
And I also told you that others that had issues got it quickly addressed when they posted their problems here.

If you don't understand it's your problem, not mine.
Trade with confidence, trade without fear.
  • #8,080
  • Nov 5, 2021 6:29am Nov 5, 2021 6:29am
Quoting Cryptosurf
{quote} And I also told you that others that had issues got it quickly addressed when they posted their problems here. If you don't understand it's your problem, not mine.
My problem was not yet addressed here (since my yesterday's post) so I don't know what you are referring to. They responded my today's 5th email without saying a word about my posts here.
COINCIDENCE.
Money is made by sitting, not trading
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