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  • #3,941
  • Sep 19, 2021 8:32am Sep 19, 2021 8:32am
Quoting Expo33
{quote} UPDATE Mark, the "one-man-band" said he'd check on my ID verification and now I'm verified and good to go. Certainly not recommending DT4X but so far the trading conditions and support have been good. Although having a dead chat box on their website is foolish. You'd think they could at least hire someone named Mobumbadingo from the Congo to man the chatbox. Also, I haven't been able to find any complaints about nonpayment. If I had to guess, I would assume they don't have a big client base and I would imagine the majority of...
Just wondering how are things going with DT4X...? few days left to payday
It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future...
  • #3,942
  • Sep 19, 2021 8:53am Sep 19, 2021 8:53am
Quoting mcquak
{quote} Toxic order flow is being identified when huge orders come onto markets and need to consume a lot of liquidity to be fulfilled. Hence we can see liquidity withdrawals in form of huge candle bodies from time to time on the charts when this happens.Institutions can not place whole order at once, so accumulation phase can keep theirs algos busy for several hours or even days I do not think my two 5 lot orders I make twice a day would have such effects on liquidity. After all majority of 'prop firms' operate on demo accounts (and their copy...
In the chain on FX someone is always warehousing the orders. Somewhere, an LP for example will take retail flow because of its high rate of failure so they will tighten the conditions significantly to attract more of that flow and thus you get the lovely low spreads of 0-0.1 with whatever clicks you are hitting. If you get enough brokers sending you their retail flow, especially if they are netting, you will make money as an LP by warehousing.

If that order flow becomes more disciplined (automated) and is more consistent to make profit, regardless of frequency or size, it is considered toxic retail flow. There are LP streams you then move that trader to which generally has a wider quote. With a wider quote, the LP can deal with the order better without having to over expose themselves on risk.

You can hit 100 lot clicks manually without it being considered toxic so long as its not automated and still retail and 9/10 times it will be fine. You start hitting 100 lot clicks with automated trading and the slippage and rejections will be significant. Hell, even LMAX's fine print suggests that automated trading could be rejected on their "no last look" liquidity pool.

We are talking retail, not institutional in terms of toxic flow. Institutional toxic flow is basically giant order block that don't truly want to be filled, predatory HFT etc. but in both instances of trading predatory HFT and giant order blocks are generally market makers to begin with and not connecting to LP's that you and I would trade at.
  • #3,943
  • Sep 19, 2021 8:57am Sep 19, 2021 8:57am
Quoting Takisd
{quote} I think its an interesting topic re: prop firms and Algo trading. The only thing I will say is that institutional spreads aren't 0 or 0.1 for EURUSD. You can only get retail feeds that low and so all automated trading is toxic on those feeds.
I'm not an expert in the institutional prices but the retail EURUSD spread is not the whole cost. Actually EURUSD is of course maintained artificially low to attract retail who mostly trade this pair, but they are also charged commissions which is equivalent to additional 0.8-1.3 pips. But retail traders don't realize that and hunt for the lowest spread possible disregarding the fact that they pay up to 1.3 in the end, even with the spread of 0.0 pip
I guess 0.8-1.3 pips might be close to the inslitutional cost
Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #3,944
  • Sep 19, 2021 9:42am Sep 19, 2021 9:42am
Quoting Vitore
{quote} I'm not an expert in the institutional prices but the retail EURUSD spread is not the whole cost. Actually EURUSD is of course maintained artificially low to attract retail who mostly trade this pair, but they are also charged commissions which is equivalent to additional 0.8-1.3 pips. But retail traders don't realize that and hunt for the lowest spread possible disregarding the fact that they pay up to 1.3 in the end, even with the spread of 0.0 pip I guess 0.8-1.3 pips might be close to the inslitutional cost

Hmm, I don't think its that high. I'd say total cost is around 0.8 but you certainly can't get large clicks below 0.5 in cost if you are talking about proper institutional order flow. It really depends on how you structure your liquidity because you can make your own spread by taking a buy side MM and a sell side MM and forming your own spread as well providing those 2 providers have depth.
  • #3,945
  • Sep 19, 2021 10:18am Sep 19, 2021 10:18am
Quoting Nsak3y
Curious if anyone has researched this new firm: https://blueedgefinancial.com/funding/ These two things are very interesting, for me personally: 1. No daily or relative draw-down, so any accumulated profits can significantly increase draw-down protection. 2. 10% profit target to double account size, so a 200K account could get you to 1M after hitting 10% only two times. That being said, the spreads for indices are not very competitive. I asked about the option to roll-over partial profits for additional draw-down protection, but I was...
Interesting first post on FF.

I can't even find what the profit split is on their site.

And then there are the subjective shenanigans.
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Looks like an educational site trying to sell their product. They don't offer anything worthwhile for a prop trader
Pride always comes before destruction.... -Proverbs 16:18
  • #3,946
  • Sep 19, 2021 10:21am Sep 19, 2021 10:21am
Quoting Takisd
{quote} Hmm, I don't think its that high. I'd say total cost is around 0.8 but you certainly can't get large clicks below 0.5 in cost if you are talking about proper institutional order flow. It really depends on how you structure your liquidity because you can make your own spread by taking a buy side MM and a sell side MM and forming your own spread as well providing those 2 providers have depth.
You're right, I made a mistake, it shoud be half of my estimated range. I calculate it like this:

Commission in pips = USD commission RT / USD asset price / lot size / pip size

Most brokers charge between 4 and 7 USD RT / lot and so
EURUSD commission in pips = 4 to 7 / 1.17 / 100,000 / 0.0001 =
= 4 to 7 / 1.17 / 10 = 0.34 to 0.6 pips
Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #3,947
  • Sep 19, 2021 10:22am Sep 19, 2021 10:22am
Quoting degorbi
{quote} Just wondering how are things going with DT4X...? few days left to payday
Nothing to report. I'll put in my withdrawal request in a few days and trade with my 1% buffer in the meantime.
Pride always comes before destruction.... -Proverbs 16:18
  • #3,948
  • Sep 19, 2021 10:23am Sep 19, 2021 10:23am
Quoting Expo33
{quote} Interesting first post on FF. I can't even find what the profit split is on their site. And then there are the subjective shenanigans. {image} Looks like an educational site trying to sell their product. They don't offer anything worthwhile for a prop trader
Can't confirm, but based on the setup, I'm 99% certain another white label of Traders Central. One dead giveaway is you are ALWAYS required to keep the 10% profit in the account in order to scale. You can only withdrawal over the 10%, you may withdrawal all profit if you don't scale. This one rule always ties back to Traders Central. I get weekly emails from them to set up my own prop firm. I must be on their list from when I first started investigating prop firms some 15 months ago.
  • #3,949
  • Sep 19, 2021 3:59pm Sep 19, 2021 3:59pm
Quoting Expo33
I can't even find what the profit split is on their site.
-Hi. It is about half-way down the page.

Regarding being at the mercy of their investors (or risk-assessment team), I am not overly keen on this, either, admittedly. However, I suppose that it would seem justifiable and give them cover should they decide to kick gamblers that straddle news or something similar.

The way that I look at it, is that this is just another option for traders, and more options and competition in this space is a good thing.

Also, most popular firms are not offering absolute draw-down and such quick scaling options, so if anything, this firm might encourage those firms to consider these options in order to remain competitive.

Just my take.

Quoting pipmaster77
you are ALWAYS required to keep the 10% profit in the account in order to scale
-Yes. This obviously protects investor capital by serving as draw-down protection. In my opinion, this does not bother me, since their scaling plan allows for such quick scaling. I do not mind, and would even prefer to be allowed the option to elect that all or partial profits remain in the account in order to maintain additional draw-down protection. I have not seen any firm, including this one, that allows for that, though.

Quoting pipmaster77
I'm 99% certain another white label of Traders Central
-I'm not knowledgeable about those things. I do know that the broker that Blue Edge appears to be using is TCBridge, if that helps.
  • #3,950
  • Sep 19, 2021 6:56pm Sep 19, 2021 6:56pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} Can't confirm, but based on the setup, I'm 99% certain another white label of Traders Central. One dead giveaway is you are ALWAYS required to keep the 10% profit in the account in order to scale. You can only withdrawal over the 10%, you may withdrawal all profit if you don't scale. This one rule always ties back to Traders Central. I get weekly emails from them to set up my own prop firm. I must be on their list from when I first started investigating prop firms some 15 months ago.
To my knowledge there are two firms creating a multitude of so called prop' firms funding traders. They are now popping up like mushrooms. These firms are reaping in 60% making a bloody fortune. Kickstart is yet another of these prop' firms. https://kickstarttrading.com/kicksta...nding-program/. this one is funded by fpfx tech. https://fpfxtech.com/products/prop-trading-tech-kit/ which has at least 6 started so far.
The other is traders central which you already know about. http://www.traderscentral.com/products/liquidity

They all have similar themes. One good thing with all this competition. The so called big boys are are slowly being pulled kicking & screaming into providing more realistic conditions & prices.
Look Left Trade Right
  • #3,951
  • Sep 19, 2021 7:01pm Sep 19, 2021 7:01pm
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote} -Hi. It is about half-way down the page. Regarding being at the mercy of their investors (or risk-assessment team), I am not overly keen on this, either, admittedly. However, I suppose that it would seem justifiable and give them cover should they decide to kick gamblers that straddle news or something similar. The way that I look at it, is that this is just another option for traders, and more options and competition in this space is a good thing. Also, most popular firms are not offering absolute draw-down and such quick scaling options,...
Yes, all of the Traders Central white labels are the same. Keeping profits in and not withdrawing serves absolutely no purpose with a prop firm. It simply increases your chances of blowing the account next month and then never getting paid ANYTHING. You ALWAYS want to withdrawal as often as the particular firm will allow. The even bigger drawback with all of the TCC white labels is the risk assessment team. There are no hard rules which you can break, just hey, we don't like what you are doing (i.e. you're profitable) so here's your money back. It seems to me their business is as follows....collect the fees of failed challenges and refund the profitable traders because you don't like their risk assessment. Once again, it all comes back to the same......there are two solid, proven options in the challenge/eval model...MFF and FTMO
  • #3,952
  • Sep 19, 2021 11:04pm Sep 19, 2021 11:04pm
Quoting pipmaster77
It seems to me their business is as follows....collect the fees of failed challenges and refund the profitable traders because you don't like their risk assessment. Once again, it all comes back to the same......there are two solid, proven options in the challenge/eval model...MFF and FTMO
-I hope that you are wrong about it. To be fully honest, this was the most concerning part of their offerings for me. I asked them a lot about this, because I had those same concerns. Unfortunately, as you say, they can decide, for whatever reason, to close your account. I suppose that any firm could do that, realistically, but it does make you think. I was told many times that it would be very rare for that to happen, but I still have doubts about it.

I will say that FTMO was at the top of my list until MFF came along. I was reluctant, at first, to consider MFF after dealing with their frustrating, lower-level support and the fact that they didn't have a demo account available yet. I initially decided to give them more time in order to get their ducks in a row since they were a new company. But then I quickly changed my mind after seeing their youtube channel.

It was really nice to see how transparent they were about everything. You could see what decisions were being made and why, as well as the people making those decisions. They also seemed to genuinely care about the success of their traders and I really liked the fact that they engaged with their traders and seemed to listen to feedback. Their lead trader, Josh, really sold me on everything. I didn't feel like this was just another possible Ponzi.

Then someone in a facebook group mentioned Blue Edge. When I saw their offerings of no daily draw-down, nice profit-splits and fast scaling option, I tried really hard to get MFF to reconsider their accelerated programs to be more competitive with Blue Edge offerings, because I was really keen on trading with MFF after everything that I had researched at that point. Unfortunately, I kept hitting walls with their lower-level support.

So, for me, it is a toss-up between FTMO, MFF and Blue Edge. From a personal perspective, Blue Edge has the best offerings, with MFF having second-best and FTMO coming in last. FTMO has the best history and they are always improving, I just wish (personally) that they would either remove the daily draw-down, or, allow for faster scaling (or, provide a plan for traders that prefer that). I have also asked FTMO to reconsider their offerings in order to be more competitive. The way that I look at it is, if nothing is said, then we can expect nothing to change. All of this is just my personal opinion or preference though.

Given the information that has been shared in this thread, I do have some concerns about the possibility that Blue Edge would kick successful traders. That really troubles me. The issue with MFF is the 50/50 split on their accelerated accounts. A recent video on their channel suggested that they were considering increasing this for traders that scale up to level-5 or similar, but all of the interactions that I have had with support seem to suggest otherwise. I do not know if these support guys speak on behalf of the company or are relaying information from decision-makers or not.

I also think that MFF's scaling plan could be better, but the point that pipmaster77 made about some firms requiring profits to stay in the account in order to scale up, has me rethinking this. Because the way that MFF's accelerated accounts work, is that the trader's profits still serve as draw-down protection, but they still allow you to withdraw your profits. They can do this by structuring their scaling plan in such a way that traders are required to reach 20% profit on their account before scale-up (instead of just 10%). So, the 10% profit split that MFF would see, could theoretically be tucked away to serve as that draw-down protection, in lieu of leveraging the trader's profit to serve as padding like some of these other firms are doing.

Unfortunately, I asked MFF to consider allowing traders the option to roll-over all or partial profits as a way to maintain additional draw-down protection, but based on the responses that I have been given from support, they seem to be not interested in that. Which confuses me, since being able to do that could be beneficial for all parties involved - the trader could further-mitigate risk on the account, MFF could more-easily keep good traders and investor capital could be more shielded.

Not to say that it would benefit all traders, but for those that elected to do that, it could potentially provide more benefits. So long as MFF is able to take their 50% on-time and in-full, then it should not matter what the trader elects to do with their profits. Unfortunately, they do not agree. I suppose that they might feel that integrating a system to track and automate all of that is too much of a burden to even consider it.

This gives me something to think about. Cheers.
  • #3,953
  • Sep 19, 2021 11:33pm Sep 19, 2021 11:33pm
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote} -I hope that you are wrong about it. To be fully honest, this was the most concerning part of their offerings for me. I asked them a lot about this, because I had those same concerns. Unfortunately, as you say, they can decide, for whatever reason, to close your account. I suppose that any firm could do that, realistically, but it does make you think. I was told many times that it would be very rare for that to happen, but I still have doubts about it. I will say that FTMO was at the top of my list until MFF came along. I was reluctant,...
Just do the evals at MFF and get paid 85%. You pay $499 for 12 K drawdown or $949 for 24K drawdown. You scale by doing more evals, up to 600K.
  • #3,954
  • Edited 2:27am Sep 20, 2021 12:13am | Edited 2:27am
Isn't MFF's daily draw-down a relative/trailing draw-down? Nonetheless, just as a personal preference, I would rather have a total draw-down, where I can pad the account as I accumulate profits. It may not be for everyone, but I prefer it over the traditional model.

Being able to pad the account with profits has several benefits for me. It allows me to reduce the possibility of losing the account by significantly increasing draw-down protection, in the case of something uncontrollable happening. As a trader, I can feel the rewards of my progress and even leverage that if I wanted to, instead of feeling like I am starting all over everyday, which can feel unrewarding and stressful. By having more breathing room, I can eliminate a lot of the pressure and psychological hurdles, which can allow me to perform better.

I realize that some traders need more tight restrictions in order to effectively trade more safely, but not all traders. If traders want to swing for the fences, then that is their prerogative, but not something that I would advocate.

Also, the idea of having to prove myself more than once (and to pay to do so) for the same-sized account is not appealing, and I do not see that is should be necessary. Which is why I favor scale-up options over 'multiple account' options, even if accounts can be merged. Liquidity is another matter, I suppose. My views about this do not apply to diversification across multiple brokers/firms, however.

That being said, I do think that the daily draw-down allowance is good for many traders, especially newer traders that struggle with discipline. It is mostly favorable for prop firms, for obvious reasons. It can be a double-edged sword as far as account turnover rates, unfortunately, but the ultimate purpose is more about teaching, establishing and maintaining discipline and good money management, so I do not think that it should be removed from most programs. I do, however, wish that more firms would have an option for those that prefer not to have those constraints. I would not even consider anything with a relative/trailing daily draw-down. Just my opinion.
  • #3,955
  • Sep 20, 2021 1:23am Sep 20, 2021 1:23am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote} -I hope that you are wrong about it. To be fully honest, this was the most concerning part of their offerings for me. I asked them a lot about this, because I had those same concerns. Unfortunately, as you say, they can decide, for whatever reason, to close your account. I suppose that any firm could do that, realistically,
Yes, all of them can close your account any time they want. Some like to use this option, some other les so. Some even have so called "consistency rule" to make it even easier for them.
But the top ones (FTMO and MFF) want you to be successful.
Of those two I prefer FTMO (reasons in my earlier post) but you won't go wrong with any of them.
Money is made by sitting, not trading
  • #3,956
  • Sep 20, 2021 2:24am Sep 20, 2021 2:24am
Quoting Vitore
Some like to use this option, some other les so. Some even have so called "consistency rule" to make it even easier for them.
-Yeah, the guys that appear to be running Blue Edge seem to be Americans, based in the US. For all I know, they could just be hired faces, however, their social media seems to indicate that they are part of the company as well. No idea about their investor partners, but I suspect that at least one of their partners might not be local, based on the offerings that they are providing and the regulatory restrictions in the US that they are able to circumvent. But, I suppose that having an offshore broker is all that might be needed for that, based on the nature of the business. The owners in the introduction video seem to be traders (or have experience with trading) that also are entrepreneurs, doing business in other areas.

On the one hand, it is unknown whether or not they actually want successful traders. However, being presumably based in the US, and the fact that terminating accounts with many good traders would quickly circulate and become well-known, it would seem that they would have a lot to lose if it was ever proven that they were running some kind of questionable prop firm.

That being said, I definitely think that MFF wants their traders to be successful - at least their lead trader, Josh, seems to give me that impression. Regarding FTMO, their good history and track-record gives them a lot of credibility. I just do not know if they are in the business of churning accounts or if they are actually pushing trades to a live market. At the end of the day, though, it is not that important (from a trader's perspective) so long as these firms continue to pay out. And truthfully, the burden of proof is very low for these prop firms that are looking to set up a ponzi-type business, as they would really only need a few trades on a single account to skirt that (presumably).
  • #3,957
  • Sep 20, 2021 3:43am Sep 20, 2021 3:43am
Quoting Nsak3y
{quote} -I hope that you are wrong about it. To be fully honest, this was the most concerning part of their offerings for me. I asked them a lot about this, because I had those same concerns. Unfortunately, as you say, they can decide, for whatever reason, to close your account. I suppose that any firm could do that, realistically, but it does make you think. I was told many times that it would be very rare for that to happen, but I still have doubts about it. I will say that FTMO was at the top of my list until MFF came along. I was reluctant,...
Lol Damn man, that's a lot of suggestions.
You're not going to find any firm with perfect conditions that tick all your boxes. Make your decision based on the one which offers the best possible conditions compared to others.
Also, if you're not in a hurry to start earning and have the patience to wait for potentially greater rewards, you should definitely consider evaluations over MFF accelerated or any other Direct funding offer.
  • #3,958
  • Sep 20, 2021 5:49am Sep 20, 2021 5:49am
Quoting garfield75
This is interesting response. Self funded free account might be a marketing stunt based on their response. ASIC doesnt care if I have 1 or 10 accounts with brokers. {image}
Saw this chat on their discord channel for scaling model - https://www.fundedacademy.com.au/
Why would anyone even bother?

Looked them up on the ASIC register(cost $9 AUD). the company is registered a few months back. 1 owner - Jack Payne with 100 shares.
The registered address for the company is a residential place at St Ives. The cost of the house would be around $3M to $4M.
Operating in Australia without any AFSL license in the financial space can be a red flag.

I think the business model is primary IB based.
They will introduce you to a broker to trade your own money to qualify for the free challenge. They will get the IB rebate.
If you fail they have nothing to lose. if you pass then give you a demo account to trade. if you fail, then back to square one.
if your pass stage 1, then they will give you another demo account to trade for stage 2. if you fail then back to square one.
if you pass stage 2, then Jack is likely to go "Oh Shit now what".
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Trading is SIMPLE not EASY.
  • #3,959
  • Sep 20, 2021 6:12am Sep 20, 2021 6:12am
FTMO update :

Our main goal at FTMO has always been creating the best trading conditions and environment for our FTMO Traders.

In line with this spirit, we are proud to introduce some of the most exciting updates to date! From now on, all of our FTMO Traders get an upgraded 80:20 Profit Split.

Those who are on the Scaling Plan will not only get their FTMO Account balance increased by 25% but also receive a staggering 90:10 Profit Split on their payouts!

But we're not stopping here. All our new and existing FTMO Traders can now benefit from the Bi-weekly withdrawals and Payout-on-demand.

It is now completely up to your convenience when to withdraw your profits.
Intraday only.
  • #3,960
  • Sep 20, 2021 6:15am Sep 20, 2021 6:15am
Quoting garfield75
{quote} Saw this chat on their discord channel for scaling model - https://www.fundedacademy.com.au/ Why would anyone even bother? Looked them up on the ASIC register(cost $9 AUD). the company is registered a few months back. 1 owner - Jack Payne with 100 shares. The registered address for the company is a residential place at St Ives. The cost of the house would be around $3M to $4M. Operating in Australia without any AFSL license in the financial space can be a red flag. I think the business model is primary IB based. They will introduce...
Lol you private investigators are doing the Lord's work.
I'd ignore them for now. Not worth risking.

in other news - Funding talent review

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This can't be true right? something is missing.... This is just too much.
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