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  • #3,681
  • Sep 9, 2021 2:29pm Sep 9, 2021 2:29pm
lol @ funding talent.

Blaming a DDOS on their server.. Someone would have to spend more money than its worth to ddos an MT4 server that doesn't belong to them.

Also "our cyber security team"... fuck off Jessica with your bullshit, you are a white label and you don't have a cybersecurity team, because if you did, they would tell you it wasn't a ddos attack.
  • #3,682
  • Sep 9, 2021 2:40pm Sep 9, 2021 2:40pm
Quoting Takisd
lol @ funding talent. Blaming a DDOS on their server.. Someone would have to spend more money than its worth to ddos an MT4 server that doesn't belong to them. Also "our cyber security team"... fuck off Jessica with your bullshit, you are a white label and you don't have a cybersecurity team, because if you did, they would tell you it wasn't a ddos attack.
If people are still contemplating FT after all this, they’re better off just lighting their money on fire. At least it’ll serve a purpose in keeping you warm.
Trade with confidence, trade without fear.
  • #3,683
  • Sep 9, 2021 3:34pm Sep 9, 2021 3:34pm
Quoting endgame99
000{quote} I put numbers in the spreadsheet and here are the results. (If you're serious about using my calculations to make decision and invest your hard earned money, then please double-check the numbers. You never know, mistakes happen.) {image} MFF Conventional will get you $33,000 in profits when you scale all the way to the $540,000. Real account without withdrawals grows to over a million. Real account with withdrawals - you pay yourself same amounts as with MFF - gives you $33,000 in withdrawals and your $500 account grows to over $200,000....
Interesting numbers, certainly a different way to look at things.
Thanks!
  • #3,684
  • Sep 9, 2021 4:34pm Sep 9, 2021 4:34pm
Quoting EnoFX
{quote} Thanks for this. That whole direct funding model is getting really difficult to justify given the profit disparity when compared with a personal account. The only upside that I see to doing it is black swan protection, such as broker going tits up, or some type of extreme market move that could wipe out your personal account. Apart from that I'm not really seeing the rationale behind it.
Been saying that for months. Evals/challenges give you 10-12K in DD for $500-650. It's aprox 20 times your fee in DD.
  • #3,685
  • Sep 9, 2021 11:18pm Sep 9, 2021 11:18pm
@mastermind

your TE makes me remind my start of forex.

dont give up buddy
Allergic to bullshitters, never argue with fools
  • #3,686
  • Sep 9, 2021 11:40pm Sep 9, 2021 11:40pm
This is my view of prop models we have.

There are 3 funding models:
- Challenge model
- Scaling model
- Direct funding model

Challenge model MFF/FTMO ($100K)
need to pass a test (Challenge) on demo account with strict time restriction (30 + 60 days)
after passing a test you get $10K-$12K DD for $500-$650 fee
slow scaling at 25-30% of initial balance every 4 months (10% profit)
Overall - best option when looking at ratio between fee/maxDD, time restriction may be a problem for some traders

Scaling model CTI ($50K)
need to pass a test (Evaluation) on live account with generous time limit (12 months)
after passing a test you get $2,500 DD for $620 fee
on average 1.7x scaling every 10% profit
can grow 2 accounts, each to $2million
*5ers offer similar model, but due to lower profit split, lower DD, lower max AUM, I find CTI better
Overall - still reasonable fee/maxDD ratio, generous time limit, from long term perspective the scaling will eventually produce more profit than Challenge model

Direct Funding model MFF
no need to pass any test
trading live account right away
your DD is the fee you pay
very low profit split at 50%
1,5-2x scaling every 10-20% profit
Overall - fee is your DD so trading your own account may be better

IF you don't mind time restriction, then go for Challenge model and load up on as many accounts as you can. You'll have opportunity to make huge profits in just few months.

IF you want to trade in a relaxed way without any pressure to perform in very short time, then go for Scaling model. It may give you less profit initially but over time the scaling will outperform the Challenge model.

It doesn't matter whether you trade your own account or any funding option, smart risk management will help you to stay in the game as long as possible.

I like Scaling model a little bit more because the Evaluation is closer to natural trading (no harsh time limits to perform) and Challenge model has a competition-style initial test. Choose whatever suits best your own circumstances and your trading personality. Whether you choose to get as many Challenge accounts as possible or you take it slow with Scaling accounts, remember the most important thing is to survive long term. Don't get sidetracked by crazy payouts shown on youtube. Most traders blow up very fast so take your time and enjoy the journey.
  • #3,687
  • Sep 10, 2021 12:46am Sep 10, 2021 12:46am
Quoting Muhammedfx
@mastermind your TE makes me remind my start of forex. dont give up buddy
yours looks quite simillar....small wins and carying big floating loses..
am i missing something ?
  • #3,688
  • Sep 10, 2021 12:59am Sep 10, 2021 12:59am
Quoting endgame99
This is my view of prop models we have. There are 3 funding models: - Challenge model - Scaling model - Direct funding model Challenge model MFF/FTMO ($100K) need to pass a test (Challenge) on demo account with strict time restriction (30 + 60 days) after passing a test you get $10K-$12K DD for $500-$650 fee slow scaling at 25-30% of initial balance every 4 months (10% profit) Overall - best option when looking at ratio between fee/maxDD, time restriction may be a problem for some traders Scaling model CTI ($50K) need to pass a test (Evaluation)...
Wait Up Endgame, i'm going to challenge your calculations in a bit.... All models are totally inferior to the challenge models in the long run in terms of practical earnings and risk availability..... but an MFF accelerated account will outperform a personal account and the 5ers regular scaling account in the long run under normal realistic trading conditions...

Still running the numbers... i'll be accounting for potential losses and reasonable risk appetite on the personal account.

If my brain gets too stressed in the process, i'll just load up a $250 trading account and trade an accelerated $5000 account side by side (costs $245).
  • #3,689
  • Sep 10, 2021 1:10am Sep 10, 2021 1:10am
Quoting bradu
{quote} yours looks quite simillar....small wins and carying big floating loses.. am i missing something ?
yes, you missing the whole thing, look at all the TE with more intelligence.

My systems are here to run for a long term basis.
Allergic to bullshitters, never argue with fools
  • #3,690
  • Sep 10, 2021 1:12am Sep 10, 2021 1:12am
Quoting endgame99
This is my view of prop models we have. There are 3 funding models: - Challenge model - Scaling model - Direct funding model Challenge model MFF/FTMO ($100K) need to pass a test (Challenge) on demo account with strict time restriction (30 + 60 days) after passing a test you get $10K-$12K DD for $500-$650 fee slow scaling at 25-30% of initial balance every 4 months (10% profit) Overall - best option when looking at ratio between fee/maxDD, time restriction may be a problem for some traders Scaling model CTI ($50K) need to pass a test (Evaluation)...
A nice neat summary. My take on things using FTMO as an example:

- If you invest 600$ you get a $100K account with 10K drawdown so thats 16 times your investment
- But, say it takes you 3 failed attempts, so in reality your investment is $1200 ($600 x 3 - fee refund of $600 when you pass)
- But ftmo profit split of 70% means it really has the value of a 7K account (70% x 10K)
- So finally your typical investment is $1200 for a 7K account which is 6 times your investment.

Still worth it, but not as earth shattering a deal as it may first appear.
Your worst drawdown is yet to come
  • #3,691
  • Sep 10, 2021 1:42am Sep 10, 2021 1:42am
0
Quoting Koop
{quote} Wait Up Endgame, i'm going to challenge your calculations in a bit.... All models are totally inferior to the challenge models in the long run in terms of practical earnings and risk availability..... but an MFF accelerated account will outperform a personal account and the 5ers regular scaling account in the long run under normal realistic trading conditions... Still running the numbers... i'll be accounting for potential losses and reasonable risk appetite on the personal account. If my brain gets too stressed in the process, i'll just...
I'm looking forward to your perspective. I actually like to be made wrong because that means that I learn something new.
  • #3,692
  • Edited 2:11am Sep 10, 2021 1:49am | Edited 2:11am
Quoting nebby
{quote} A nice neat summary. My take on things using FTMO as an example: - If you invest 600$ you get a $100K account with 10K drawdown so thats 16 times your investment - But, say it takes you 3 failed attempts, so in reality your investment is $1200 ($600 x 3 - fee refund of $600 when you pass) - But ftmo profit split of 70% means it really has the value of a 7K account (70% x 10K) - So finally your typical investment is $1200 for a 7K account which is 6 times your investment. Still worth it, but not as earth shattering a deal as it may first...
This is a very inaccurate representation IMO.

First off, because your profit split is 70%, the value of your 100k account is only actually $7000? lol come on man...that's a very unrelated equation..
You can't decide on account balance value based on profit split.. Doesn't even make sense.. The value remains the same whether or not there is even a profit split or regardless of what the split is.

Secondly, i've had this argument more times than i remember....
The moment people stop looking at this prop firm thing as "your account value is your DD" or " The only thing the account is worth is your allowed DD"...... the sooner they begin to understand the unlimited potentials.

Of all the people making $5000 t0 $20,000 profits and above on their $100k prop accounts, how may of them were achieving the same feats on their personal $10k accounts?
Are you only thinking of the potential of losing the account when you talk about DD? what about the potential of growing your profits exponentially with the buying power afforded to you?

Risking 0.5% t0 1% on your 100k prop account is risking $500-1000 per trade...... and that is quite conservative and will earn you great returns if you actually have a trading edge. It ill allow you at least 20-10 straight losses before you burn out... and you would have only lost $650 of real investment.
(as i have said before... if you're losing that much, what are you even doing trading?)

But regardless of your confidence in your system, will you comfortably risk $500-1000 per trade on your personal $10k account? thats 5%-!0% risk. Nuts.
And if you lose as much as you did on the prop challenge...... you won't only be losing $650 in fees..... but a whole $10,000 deposit.


The psychological factor can't be denied... It is actually "shattering" when you consider the risk v. profit potential....... not just looking at one side of the equation.
  • #3,693
  • Sep 10, 2021 1:52am Sep 10, 2021 1:52am
Quoting Muhammedfx
{quote} yes, you missing the whole thing, look at all the TE with more intelligence. My systems are here to run for a long term basis.
well...good luck !
i was just pointed the obvious...dont care for the rest.

it is not a competition here, nor signal thread, so as long as you both make money, own ones or prop firm ones.....it is perfect.

so good luck to everyone here (myself included )
  • #3,694
  • Sep 10, 2021 1:57am Sep 10, 2021 1:57am
Quoting Koop
{quote} Wait Up Endgame, i'm going to challenge your calculations in a bit.... All models are totally inferior to the challenge models in the long run in terms of practical earnings and risk availability..... but an MFF accelerated account will outperform a personal account and the 5ers regular scaling account in the long run under normal realistic trading conditions... Still running the numbers... i'll be accounting for potential losses and reasonable risk appetite on the personal account. If my brain gets too stressed in the process, i'll just...

Based on pure maths challenge model will make sense. In all these models/projections there is no inclusion of the role of human emotional/psychology, which plays a big role in profitable trading.

Assuming a system has a defined edge if the trade risks 1% of the equity and targets 2% profit. This will all make money, but can have 15 losses in a straight line.
How many traders have the mental strength to take the 12th,13th,14th or 15th trade after a string of losses? 95% of traders will abandon or change rules after 5 to 7 straight losses. This is where maths go out of the window.
Trading is SIMPLE not EASY.
  • #3,695
  • Sep 10, 2021 2:12am Sep 10, 2021 2:12am
Prop account is the way to go if a trader is not sufficiently self funded and most importantly your personal trading style and risk threshold is permitted by the prop firm.
  • #3,696
  • Edited 5:39am Sep 10, 2021 2:29am | Edited 5:39am
000Long term comparison between CTI $50K and MFF $100K.
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: Untitled.png Size: 46 KB


This shows how profits accumulate over long term after making 112/113% accumulated profit. I used this to allow full scaling on CTI and 4 scaling ups on MFF. Of course the risk is not taken into consideration. That must be addressed. MFF DD is 2.4x larger so you could say that your trade size would be 2.4x larger on MFF.
Therefore MFF profit could be amended from $133,550 upwards to $320,520.

This is ideal scenario with making 5% a month. But remember this is only hypothetical scenario. Reality is always different. MFF scaling is limited by 4 month rule and CTI is limited only by how fast you can make 10%. So it's not exactly comparing apples with apples.

Yes, some traders can easily make 20-30% in a month and with $100K account it results in lovely income. But not every trader is willing risk maxDD in just 10-20 trades. I personally think that if you manage to lose more than 50% of your maxDD, then your trading is aggressive and not conservative. I like pipmaster77 approach of aiming for conservative 3-5% a month and be happy.

There are two ways to make same amount of money. Either you try to increase your monthly profit with same account size or you keep making smaller monthly profit and work on increasing the account size.

These calculations can be easily negated and become irrelevant based on who is looking at them. We all are different traders with different strengths and weaknesses. Some strategies we use have very high win rate and some have very high risk/reward ratio. Some of us need to trade without any time pressure to perform and some strive in Challenge-like environment. There can be long list of conditions when making decision which prop model/firm to choose. We all have different list of conditions and we trade different strategies with different parameters.

Decide what is important to you and do calculations based on that. When I do calculations I'm trying to be objective but sometimes there is always something I forget to take into consideration. So every calculation can be challenged.

We know the statistics for Challenges. Over 90% of traders fail to pass and it looks like less than 5% of all make it past 3rd funded month. Shame we don't have statistics for Scaling model. It would be easier to make these type of calculations.

Well, if you think that Challenge is the best fit for your trading personality and strategy, then go for it.
But if you think that your personality and strategy couldn't handle Challenge model, then give Scaling model a chance.
I also think that the amount of potential profit made should not be the only criteria used on deciding which model is superior. With every model you will make more than enough money over time to enjoy the life you always dreamed of.
In my humble opinion, No.1 criteria should be how long can go without blowing up and not how much money you can make how fast. Some traders enjoy making huge profits and blowing up and taking new Challenges every few months.

At the end of the day, I think we can agree to disagree which model is superior. Use your own criteria and choose what works for you best.

For me, Scaling model fits my personality more but that doesn't mean I will never take some Challenges.
  • #3,697
  • Sep 10, 2021 2:29am Sep 10, 2021 2:29am
Surely it's a lot easier to make $2000 on a Myff 20k accelerated account which pays out $1000 (and then doubles your account balance) then to open a $1000 personal account and have to double the account balance to achieve the same result? One is gonna blow that account trying to double it in a few days
  • #3,698
  • Sep 10, 2021 2:37am Sep 10, 2021 2:37am
0
Quoting garfield75
{quote} Based on pure maths challenge model will make sense. In all these models/projections there is no inclusion of the role of human emotional/psychology, which plays a big role in profitable trading. Assuming a system has a defined edge if the trade risks 1% of the equity and targets 2% profit. This will all make money, but can have 15 losses in a straight line. How many traders have the mental strength to take the 12th,13th,14th or 15th trade after a string of losses? 95% of traders will abandon or change rules after 5 to 7 straight losses....
I completely agree with you. We can enter as many numbers in the spreadsheet as we want and it still won't come close to show what the reality would look like.

Psychology plays a huge role and most traders hugely underestimate its importance.
Other think is risk management. Risking 1% per trade is easy and simple and may work for many traders. But for me it is not good enough. I always adjust risk management and apply little more complex calculations based whether I am in profit or in DD.

If more traders would take psychology and risk management into consideration, less traders would blow up prop accounts.

Here is something I think if a trader understands, it will help him a lot in trading.

What is Money Management?
THE MATHEMATICAL PROCESS OF INCREASING AND DECREASING THE NUMBER OF CONTRACTS/SHARES/LOTS. THE PURPOSE OF UTILIZING MONEY MANAGEMENT SHOULD BE TO INCREASE THE PROFITABILITY DURING POSITIVE RUNS AND PROTECT THOSE PROFITS DURING DRAWDOWNS OF ANY TRADING SYSTEM OR METHOD.
In the simplest terms, money management is a strategy for increasing and decreasing your position size, in order to manage risk while obtaining the greatest growth possible for your trading account.
  • #3,699
  • Sep 10, 2021 3:20am Sep 10, 2021 3:20am
Quoting Muhammedfx
@mastermind your TE makes me remind my start of forex. dont give up buddy
Firstly, your comment is ridiculous and secondly it has no relevance.

The challenge period is barely halfway through so giving up would be really silly and premature.

Based on time left and where the equity stands nearer to the end of the challenge period I will either opt for a free retake by keeping the account just in profit or trade with heavier but calculated volume.

Don't let me get started on your TE ... omg. !

ps. Post 1has been updated

Masterrmind .........
Master your Mind then Master your Trades
  • #3,700
  • Sep 10, 2021 3:24am Sep 10, 2021 3:24am
You getting trigger on a simple friendly post shows your in security and lack of experience. Any ways we all are watching closely. Do continue.

I appreciate atleast you have balls to put your TE in public and not like others.

Truely mastermind is here to stay.
Allergic to bullshitters, never argue with fools
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