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  • #3,241
  • Aug 28, 2021 1:54pm Aug 28, 2021 1:54pm
This is more about getting in the fees, what I understand.
  • #3,242
  • Aug 28, 2021 3:49pm Aug 28, 2021 3:49pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} Actually, they pay from a combination of revenue streams.......fees from failed challenges, volume from the LPs which they execute through and if they are a-booking MY trades, then yes profit from traders as well. As far as the folks who have an issue that these firms profit from failed challenges. It really is no different than depositing money with a b-book broker (90% of them, 100% if you're in the USA) and losing your money. Actually, these folks lose WAAAAAAAAAAAAY more than a failed challenge fee.
Exactly. The road to successful trading is paved with blown and (repeatedly) topped off accounts. Nobody is a success from their first day of trading.

Even the old school guys trying to make their way on the CME had to do the same thing. Mark Douglas mentions on many occasions having to wire funds to cover underwater or blown positions. Its nothing new. So your either you're sending money to a broker, or to a Prop Firm the goal remains the same.

Its entirely up to the individual when to throw in the towel, or make it work.
Trade with confidence, trade without fear.
  • #3,243
  • Aug 28, 2021 4:22pm Aug 28, 2021 4:22pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} Are you speaking of FT specifically? If so, I agree 100%. If you're speaking on the entire industry, that's a pretty bold statement without knowing the inner workings of each company. FTMO, MFF and the 5%ers are definitely executing trades in the market.
I really dont understand how FTMO, MFF is different from FT? Just because other firms says they are executing trades from profitable traders how one knows they execute? Does it make sense to put trades live when 90% of people fails and 90% of remaining traders loose money in first months? The only thing traders needs to worry about payment received or not. Plus long term successful traders dont need to worry as their profit monthly will not be crazy like 200K so they usually gets paid.
  • #3,244
  • Aug 28, 2021 4:30pm Aug 28, 2021 4:30pm
Quoting Eren10
This is more about getting in the fees, what I understand.
Uninformed understanding.

I saw your initial post before it was deleted/edited. Sure, it'd be cool to get a job and save up 10k or less (as you said), but i don't know how you would survive off the income generated.. Also, you have your whole savings at risk.. Not too smart.
It's absolutely the worse idea compared to taking $600 of that 10k savings and attempting a $100k prop challenge once you have established your trading prowess on your own personal account.
Both accounts would have 10k to lose before death.....but only one limits your personal risk to $600.

Hmmmm... difficult decision.
  • #3,245
  • Aug 28, 2021 4:35pm Aug 28, 2021 4:35pm
Quoting sampat
{quote} I really dont understand how FTMO, MFF is different from FT? Just because other firms says they are executing trades from profitable traders how one knows they execute? Does it make sense to put trades live when 90% of people fails and 90% of remaining traders loose money in first months? The only thing traders needs to worry about payment received or not. Plus long term successful traders dont need to worry as their profit monthly will not be crazy like 200K so they usually gets paid.

FT have admitted they dont. FTMO and MFF appear to have some brains and realize you can make more from the order flow if you manage it properly than just b booking for 500$ when your downside risk is infinite.

Either way, get paid enjoy prop, I was "ok" with FT until Jessica started threatening people, posting ridiculous shit, backtracking, lying, being aggressive and showing her true colors. I was ok with it because people were for the most part getting paid. Then, they had a boom and stopped paying many legit people with fuzzy rules and shit. Have you seen FTMO / MFF filled with complaints like FT? Nope, and FTMO is by far bigger and MFF is of similar size (traffic stats). The noise is in one place thats why we shit on FT.
  • #3,246
  • Aug 28, 2021 4:39pm Aug 28, 2021 4:39pm
If you run a prop firm long enough you'll eventually encounter a few exceptional traders who could theoretically make more than the amount of fees you're pulling in. Hence why you need to hedge in some form to ensure that your cash flow is sufficient to cover all aspects of your operations. FT are clueless dilettantes who thought that failed challenge fees would suffice, but given what they've been up to lately it's obvious that's not the case and they haven't a clue how to increase their revenues beyond signing up more people hoping they'll fail. When it became apparent that their only source of cash flow wasn't enough they started to resort to very dodgy tactics to avoid paying out.
  • #3,247
  • Aug 28, 2021 5:18pm Aug 28, 2021 5:18pm
Quoting Koop
{quote} Uninformed understanding. I saw your initial post before it was deleted/edited. Sure, it'd be cool to get a job and save up 10k or less (as you said), but i don't know how you would survive off the income generated.. Also, you have your whole savings at risk.. Not too smart. It's absolutely the worse idea compared to taking $600 of that 10k savings and attempting a $100k prop challenge once you have established your trading prowess on your own personal account. Both accounts would have 10k to lose before death.....but only one limits your...

Their business relies too much on fees, what I see. Therefore I guess chances for being rejected are to high. And you have to spend a lot of time and in the end you will be nowhere, only you get more experience. I am searching for more realistic solutions.
  • #3,248
  • Aug 28, 2021 5:59pm Aug 28, 2021 5:59pm
Quoting Takisd
{quote} FT have admitted they dont. FTMO and MFF appear to have some brains and realize you can make more from the order flow if you manage it properly than just b booking for 500$ when your downside risk is infinite. Either way, get paid enjoy prop, I was "ok" with FT until Jessica started threatening people, posting ridiculous shit, backtracking, lying, being aggressive and showing her true colors. I was ok with it because people were for the most part getting paid. Then, they had a boom and stopped paying many legit people with fuzzy rules and...
Well couple of things FT did wrong in my opinion. The moment they changed live server all shit started. Their server spreads are like 1/5 or 1/10 of most of available prop firms with out commissions. Have you heard bunch of people making 6 digits with scalping? Why dont same people make 200K in FTMO and MyFF.
FTMO also suffered same thing when they started their own server but with in a month they realized too many people are scalping and passing it so they added commissions. FT now realized that they can't survive with such good spreads now their spread is like FTMO and MYFF more or less plus they removed 2 week payouts just to keep gamblers away with the hope that they loose just like MyFF and FTMO doing. MyFF is smart enough to have 2 pip minimum stop loss to avoid aggressive scalpers. The whole order flow management is kind of LIE as no body knows who is going to be profitable unless you have 1-2 years of solid data plus firm is not in danger with those guys as they dont make 100% return in one month. Only Direct funding models maintain order flow as customer is paying for drawdown and they make money via commissions.
  • #3,249
  • Aug 28, 2021 6:13pm Aug 28, 2021 6:13pm
Quoting EnoFX
If you run a prop firm long enough you'll eventually encounter a few exceptional traders who could theoretically make more than the amount of fees you're pulling in. Hence why you need to hedge in some form to ensure that your cash flow is sufficient to cover all aspects of your operations. FT are clueless dilettantes who thought that failed challenge fees would suffice, but given what they've been up to lately it's obvious that's not the case and they haven't a clue how to increase their revenues beyond signing up more people hoping they'll fail....
Agreed but math's doesn't support other way too. Lets say if FTMO has 100 registrations of 100K lets say if they have 650$ fees per client. So if 90% of trader fails firm make 58500 and firm put real money for remaining 10 traders which is like 10% each so total around 100K at risk. So if 70-80% of 10 people loose their account in 2-3 months how order flow management or placing real trades helps firm making money?
Actually if prop firm takes opposite positions of live traders they make more money. So it is not like not placing trades but taking exact opposite position to make money.
  • #3,250
  • Aug 28, 2021 7:21pm Aug 28, 2021 7:21pm
Quoting Expo33
{quote} I bought the conventional accelerated 2K account and reached the 10% target in 2 days. Now I will get 50% of the $200 which is $100. So going forward to the next phase 4K account I have ZERO risk. Got my money back and still have a chance to scale up to a 324K account. {image}
Nicely done. I am thinking of registering for 10K conventional accelerated account. Trading conservatively on the account to make 3.5% a month should give good return scaling up slowly over a period of time. I did a comparison table between the model vs trading with rego fee vs personal account with same starting capital.
The accelerated model is the way to go in my view.
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Trading is SIMPLE not EASY.
  • #3,251
  • Aug 28, 2021 8:48pm Aug 28, 2021 8:48pm
Quoting garfield75
{quote} Nicely done. I am thinking of registering for 10K conventional accelerated account. Trading conservatively on the account to make 3.5% a month should give good return scaling up slowly over a period of time. I did a comparison table between the model vs trading with rego fee vs personal account with same starting capital. The accelerated model is the way to go in my view. {image}
Only difference in a for that $500 fee you can get a $100k eval account, not 10k, making total profit on that one 100k. Eval/ challenge blows any scaling model out of the water. With accelerated your fee is equal to your DD allowed, with eval you get 12k in DD for same $500 fee. In addition, you're getting an 85% split vs 50% split.
  • #3,252
  • Aug 28, 2021 9:01pm Aug 28, 2021 9:01pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} Only difference in a for that $500 fee you can get a $100k eval account, not 10k, making total profit on that one 100k. Eval/ challenge blows any scaling model out of the water. With accelerated your fee is equal to your DD allowed, with eval you get 12k in DD for same $500 fee. In addition, you're getting an 85% split vs 50% split.
Plus on emphatic accelerated program one has to make 20% to goto next level where as in challenge model one need to make 8+5=13%
  • #3,253
  • Aug 28, 2021 9:06pm Aug 28, 2021 9:06pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} Only difference in a for that $500 fee you can get a $100k eval account, not 10k, making total profit on that one 100k. Eval/ challenge blows any scaling model out of the water. With accelerated your fee is equal to your DD allowed, with eval you get 12k in DD for same $500 fee. In addition, you're getting an 85% split vs 50% split.
Looking further at your numbers, they only scale 2x every OTHER scale up, the other is 1.5 x. Just trying to help, I mean no disrespect whatsoever.
  • #3,254
  • Aug 28, 2021 9:14pm Aug 28, 2021 9:14pm
Quoting sampat
{quote} Well couple of things FT did wrong in my opinion. The moment they changed live server all shit started. Their server spreads are like 1/5 or 1/10 of most of available prop firms with out commissions. Have you heard bunch of people making 6 digits with scalping? Why dont same people make 200K in FTMO and MyFF. FTMO also suffered same thing when they started their own server but with in a month they realized too many people are scalping and passing it so they added commissions. FT now realized that they can't survive with such good spreads...
MFF has bi-weekly payout once you reach month 2. I truly do not think MFF wants you to lose once you've passed. I've had conversations with some folks there and I think they are actually looking for long term good traders. I also mentioned in a previous post, I get a notification addressed to them, not me, every time a trade closes. So they are for sure executing my trades somewhere. I do think FTMO relies more on fees, although I get paid from them monthly as well, they are definitely not as "trader-friendly" as MFF.
  • #3,255
  • Aug 28, 2021 9:16pm Aug 28, 2021 9:16pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} Only difference in a for that $500 fee you can get a $100k eval account, not 10k, making total profit on that one 100k. Eval/ challenge blows any scaling model out of the water. With accelerated your fee is equal to your DD allowed, with eval you get 12k in DD for same $500 fee. In addition, you're getting an 85% split vs 50% split.

Eval/Challenge has a barrier to entry which is to jump through 8% & 5% first and some traders might find that a hurdle or might not suit their trading style. Accelerated could be an option for them. Some traders might have a crack at both options (me).

Basically, it comes down to the horses for courses approach.
Trading is SIMPLE not EASY.
  • #3,256
  • Aug 28, 2021 9:27pm Aug 28, 2021 9:27pm
Quoting garfield75
{quote} Eval/Challenge has a barrier to entry which is to jump through 8% & 5% first and some traders might find that a hurdle or might not suit their trading style. Accelerated could be an option for them. Some traders might have a crack at both options (me). Basically, it comes down to the horses for courses approach.
Yes, and clearly you're crushing the eval, pass that and you don't need the other account, just do 2 more of those..
I guess it's just my personal preference, but every time I run the numbers on those "scaling" models, putting the fee in a personal account always outperforms.
But if you feel doing both is the fit for you, looks like you'll do great.
  • #3,257
  • Aug 28, 2021 10:28pm Aug 28, 2021 10:28pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} Yes, and clearly you're crushing the eval, pass that and you don't need the other account, just do 2 more of those.. I guess it's just my personal preference, but every time I run the numbers on those "scaling" models, putting the fee in a personal account always outperforms. But if you feel doing both is the fit for you, looks like you'll do great.
Thank you for the positive comment and encouragement.

I am just trying to work out the final stage with MFF funding maxed out at low risk and assuming no violation. Something to keep busy on Sunday since the market is closed. .
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Trading is SIMPLE not EASY.
  • #3,258
  • Aug 29, 2021 12:56am Aug 29, 2021 12:56am
Quoting garfield75
{quote} Nicely done. I am thinking of registering for 10K conventional accelerated account. Trading conservatively on the account to make 3.5% a month should give good return scaling up slowly over a period of time. I did a comparison table between the model vs trading with rego fee vs personal account with same starting capital. The accelerated model is the way to go in my view. {image}
My suggestion would be to keep going with the Evaluation Models of both FTMO and MFF (at least at this stage under current conditions/reputation).

Without Scaling:

FTMO maxes out at $400,000 (70/30 profit split)

MFF maxes out at $600,000 (MN1 75/25; MN2 80/20; MN3 85/15 profit split - note that you will be trading 2 x $300K accounts)

Assume you have hit the big $1Million in funding.


Month 1 funded accounts return 5%

FTMO account 0.7*0.05*$400,000 = $14000
MFF accounts 2*(0.75*0.05*$300,000) = $22500

Your profit would be $14000 +$22500 = $36500.


Month 2 funded accounts return 5%

FTMO account 0.7*0.05*$400,000 = $14000
MFF accounts 2*(0.80*0.05*$300,000) = $24000

Your profit would be $14000 +$24000 = $38000.


Month 3 funded accounts return 5%

FTMO account 0.7*0.05*$400,000 = $14000
MFF accounts 2*(0.85*0.05*$300,000) = $25500

Your profit would be $14000 +$25500 = $39500.

Month 4 onwards would be $39500 per month provided you can continue to make a 5% return each month on the 3 funded accounts.

All I'm trying to say here is why not stick to the evaluations until you get $1Million in funding.

Then what I'd be suggesting to do is look for ways to slowly but carefully bump up the return to say 6% or 7% per month.

I would not suggest forcing double digit returns until much later if at all.

Masterrmind...............
Master your Mind then Master your Trades
  • #3,259
  • Aug 29, 2021 4:33am Aug 29, 2021 4:33am
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} Actually, they pay from a combination of revenue streams.......fees from failed challenges, volume from the LPs which they execute through and if they are a-booking MY trades, then yes profit from traders as well. As far as the folks who have an issue that these firms profit from failed challenges. It really is no different than depositing money with a b-book broker (90% of them, 100% if you're in the USA) and losing your money. Actually, these folks lose WAAAAAAAAAAAAY more than a failed challenge fee.
I don't agree
1. Traders are payed with a percentage from profit they made.
2."fees from failed challenges, volume from the LPs which they execute through and if they are a-booking MY trades"- that are another source of profit
  • #3,260
  • Aug 29, 2021 5:48am Aug 29, 2021 5:48am
Quoting Koop
Sure, it'd be cool to get a job and save up 10k or less (as you said), but i don't know how you would survive off the income generated.. Also, you have your whole savings at risk.. Not too smart. It's absolutely the worse idea compared to taking $600 of that 10k savings and attempting a $100k prop challenge once you have established your trading prowess on your own personal account. Both accounts would have 10k to lose before death.....but only one limits your personal risk to $600.
Never gamble what you cant afford to lose imo, so it's up to personal choice and financial status. Saving 10k from your regular job could be easy or hard depending on your work position and country, but thats close to average yearly salary where I live (with cost of life not exactly aligned).
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