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The brutal truth of day trading

  • #1,601
  • Jun 27, 2021 5:55am Jun 27, 2021 5:55am
Quoting PeterCaleb
I don't privately mentor anyone. Seeing as the rules are the same for all of us .... That means all of you AND me. My suggestion to someone who wants to learn to trade would be this ... * Usually there is no reason to join any site to be able to access the information and knowledge found on the site. Trading sites are known for changing the way people think. It's important to understand that opinions are not going to help you learn how you can trade. Only what you can do is important. * Know that you are alone. Trading is an activity best done on...
Recently (last year) I went onto the forum at my broker's website, I wanted to find answers to practical questions concerning why my payment had not yet arrived in my account.

The site was full of threads a bit like this one. People wanting to know... People arguing about how to.... People dissing other people just because their point of view differed from "their own".

I succumbed, I devoted about an hour to a page of text sharing some truths, and I have not been back since.

The truth is this, in support of your previous post: as you wrote, people come to these websites in search of knowledge and that makes them susceptible to a good salesman. The parallel to that is that, as I wrote just above, you almost never find successful traders on these types of website.

Why?
1) they don't need to learn much, the market is your teacher and your own mistakes the tutor.
2) the horrendous invective levelled by some people at traders who attempt to correct misconception is unbelievable, and ultimately intolerable, so they go away.

Everybody is different.
Carbon-Dioxide: the gas of life! https://youtu.be/ttJBdr6eBuo
  • #1,602
  • Jun 27, 2021 6:08am Jun 27, 2021 6:08am
When I have the time I might read this thread starting from post #1
Carbon-Dioxide: the gas of life! https://youtu.be/ttJBdr6eBuo
  • #1,603
  • Jun 27, 2021 7:14am Jun 27, 2021 7:14am
Quoting Exodus
{quote} Recently (last year) I went onto the forum at my broker's website, I wanted to find answers to practical questions concerning why my payment had not yet arrived in my account. The site was full of threads a bit like this one. People wanting to know... People arguing about how to.... People dissing other people just because their point of view differed from "their own". I succumbed, I devoted about an hour to a page of text sharing some truths, and I have not been back since. The truth is this, in support of your previous post: as you wrote,...
Hi Exodus

I have had the great pleasure of trading alongside few great traders here that are members of Forex Factory.

One of them is a Russian trader who has helped me expand by horizons on how I could trade liquidity imbalances.
He has placed almost no posts on Forex Factory because he has no desire to waste his time.
I also have had the pleasure of working with a very experience trader from the UK who has worked within the trading industry for twenty years.
Neither does he feel any need to waste his time posting on Forex Factory.

I am just glad they reached out to me to offer some of their wisdom to me - for that I am forever grateful.

That is the value of Forex Factory. Its not about the traders you converse with here but about the networking outside Forex Factory that is unmeasurable.

And I can't say enough about another experienced trader here who keeps me focused on what's important.
He decided to turn Commercial to prevent himself posting in Forums and wasting his time here as will.

Cheers Zoltan, Rich, Andrew
Trading thin liquidity at the boundary of the charts
  • #1,604
  • Jun 27, 2021 7:23am Jun 27, 2021 7:23am
Quoting Exodus
The truth is this, in support of your previous post: as you wrote, people come to these websites in search of knowledge and that makes them susceptible to a good salesman.
The first truth is that people are NOT coming here in search of knowledge. They are coming to read fairy tales or/and in search of holy grail.

Second truth is that in most cases there is nothing to "learn" here. Check what they post.
One great trader showing yet another fibo levels. Few pages back the holy grail was near 79, on this page it is 89. What to learn here? Another great trader draw zigzag lines using the data that was not available at the moment of drawings. What to learn here?
Another one claims he is earning 5%/day. What to learn here?

Bullshit. Nothing changes. 10 years ago and now. The same fairy tales, magic random lines and higher timeframes. In that 10 years people send rovers to Mars, created electric cars, mobile phones and more. But in trading everything still covered with magic. Lines, rectangles, fibo levels and luck. No new approaches. Nothing new. Few traders are trying to think different but no one cares.
Observer effect
  • #1,605
  • Jun 27, 2021 7:49am Jun 27, 2021 7:49am
Quoting scherzi
{quote} These templates are what analysts observe, but as long as they do not understand the templates used at each iteration, they will find their patterns failing over and over or just being too imprecise or impossible to anticipate. I say all this because trading liquidity imbalances is applicable to any timeframe. The difference between 1 minute or the smaller timeframes and H4+ timeframes is the velocity. Lower timeframes will give you less opportunities to join the move basically, since changes will be more abrupt in...
Hi Scherzi

Very nice read, i totally agree apart from the statement LTF gives less opportunities, in-fact its the other way round HTF gives lesser, as you go to daily or weekly accordingly.

People can learn alot from here if they put some effort but alas they wasted years thinking they have the grail and i hope they will not waste the years to come.

Cheers
GLGT
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"Exchange of hands"
  • #1,606
  • Jun 27, 2021 8:22am Jun 27, 2021 8:22am
Quoting bilal1947
{quote} Hi Scherzi Very nice read, i totally agree apart from the statement LTF gives less opportunities, in-fact its the other way round HTF gives lesser, as you go to daily or weekly accordingly. People can learn alot from here if they put some effort but alas they wasted years thinking they have the grail and i hope they will not waste the years to come. Cheers GLGT {image}
How many pips do you hunt and what SL do you put? an you trade on 1M TF?
  • #1,607
  • Jun 27, 2021 9:04am Jun 27, 2021 9:04am
Quoting GEfx
{quote} I have no doubt that you are qualified to speak of your friends, just not mine. I don't judge "qualifications". It seems something has upset you. If so, sorry. Best wishes and good trading!
Your friend is my friend. Who raised you?

I strongly suspect that you're using terms for which you haven't fully grasped the implications.
"The fun is in the hunt. Not the kill."
  • #1,608
  • Jun 27, 2021 9:07am Jun 27, 2021 9:07am
Quoting RickM
{quote} I never got your thought process on this. If you get it wrong because price can pull back 5 pips at anytime, you would be in serious draw down. I do agree we shouldn't apply standard money making strategy's to the market as the results end up favouring our brokers most times, but why risk so much on a single trade. If you can get five pips easy, why not trade smaller and repeat the process ten times a day with very little risk to your account. Ten good small 5 pip trades and you are done for the day, no single loss would eat up more than...
Yes, for the DD I understand the risk. Hence, my entry is always very careful with my reading of the direction bias.
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These were demo. Let said it I enter trade 1 with 1 lot I believe I will hold till my perceive target. Instead of where I would close if I open 20 lots.
Then another opportunity came trade 2 and I will closed where if should be. Because it was another small lot - total trade 1 and trade 2 is 2 lots, I will hold.
Now look at the time required and the risk I make myself if I trade small lot size.
After closing I could be out hunting for fish or Dungeness crab or get stuck waiting to hit perceived target.
  • #1,609
  • Jun 27, 2021 10:03am Jun 27, 2021 10:03am
Quoting Redeflect
{quote} Your friend is my friend. Who raised you? I strongly suspect that you're using terms for which you haven't fully grasped the implications.
I have no idea what you are saying or talking about. If you want to argue about something, then you're on your own from this point forward. If you have have something to say then just say it. Hope you have a good day!
  • #1,610
  • Jun 27, 2021 10:05am Jun 27, 2021 10:05am
Quoting PeterCaleb
Day trading, in whatever morphed state you choose to see it, is just the same as watching people for long enough ---- "Ergo, a falsis principiis proficisci." Not attempting to be clever here, because I know "people" love to druel over online nonsense and call it sweet melted butter.
I recall when I was in kindergarten that a boy and a girl in the class were being a bit more 'curious' about certain aspects of human nature which adults tend to hold a monopoly of control over. Decades later; they've undoubtedly become the same sort of adults that would condemn such behavior on principle. If they didn't know that they were being observed... have they actually become capable of forming proper judgements as to appropriate behavior for children of that age when they, themselves, never observed it objectively? The worst parents are often over-compensating for having been the most ill-behaved children.

The lesson carries over to trading;

They don't know what they don't know and can never know what they might have known if they had already known it.
"The fun is in the hunt. Not the kill."
  • #1,611
  • Jun 27, 2021 10:25am Jun 27, 2021 10:25am
Quoting asalami23
{quote} How many pips do you hunt and what SL do you put? an you trade on 1M TF?
I dont use SL if price started to go against me one candle more from my entry i closed it my self. I keep taking profits on the way and there is something always left on the table. There are no targets unless i foresee price going to hit me BE then i close the remaining too. Yes i trade at 1m TF as price dont know what time frame we are trading it.
"Exchange of hands"
  • #1,612
  • Jun 27, 2021 12:42pm Jun 27, 2021 12:42pm
Quoting GEfx
{quote} I have no idea what you are saying or talking about. If you want to argue about something, then you're on your own from this point forward. If you have have something to say then just say it. Hope you have a good day!
There's nothing to argue; if your 'friend' believes that trading higher timeframes is the only way to be a successful trader then that's entirely false. If he believes that most traders will be more successful trading on higher timeframes then that is true. If he believes that the most successful traders only do so on higher timeframes then that is false.

Any profitable trader is successful. Your perception of his degree of 'success' is relative to your own lack of successfulness rather than a thorough comprehension of the metrics which can be used to define it. Any successful trader that only trades higher timeframes because they are unsuccessful on lower timeframes is inarguably less capable than one that successfully trades all timeframes. This is undeniably fact and quantifiable.
"The fun is in the hunt. Not the kill."
  • #1,613
  • Jun 27, 2021 1:17pm Jun 27, 2021 1:17pm
Quoting Redeflect
{quote} There's nothing to argue; if your 'friend' believes that trading higher timeframes is the only way to be a successful trader then that's entirely false. If he believes that most traders will be more successful trading on higher timeframes then that is true. If he believes that the most successful traders only do so on higher timeframes then that is false. Any profitable trader is successful. Your perception of his degree of 'success' is relative to your own lack of successfulness rather than a thorough comprehension of the metrics which...
Trading higher time frames with macroeconomics is the way to go. Day trading is very stressful but there are very few retail traders that are very successful in day trading and make high income. There are very few day traders that are constantly profitable. Trading higher time frames gives you better results and consistency.But none of those day traders are here on FF.
  • #1,614
  • Jun 27, 2021 1:21pm Jun 27, 2021 1:21pm
Quoting bilal1947
{quote} I dont use SL if price started to go against me one candle more from my entry i closed it my self...
I think that is a smart way to trade. For you never know when price will hit your stop loss and then move in the direction you were trading. It sucks when that happens. And that is why I usually don't use a stop loss. But I will set a stop loss price to manually close the trade if a candle closes above or below it (depending on the direction I am trading).
Learn from your mistakes and march on.
  • #1,615
  • Jun 27, 2021 2:05pm Jun 27, 2021 2:05pm
Quoting Redeflect
{quote} There's nothing to argue; if your 'friend' believes that trading higher timeframes is the only way to be a successful trader then that's entirely false. If he believes that most traders will be more successful trading on higher timeframes then that is true. If he believes that the most successful traders only do so on higher timeframes then that is false. Any profitable trader is successful. Your perception of his degree of 'success' is relative to your own lack of successfulness rather than a thorough comprehension of the metrics which...
I posted this comment several pages ago, so let me refresh your memory as to what exactly I said:

"I am not dividing traders into good or bad depending on their trading timeframe. I am stating that long-term traders that I know ALL trade on higher timeframes, and I do not know of one single professional traders who trades retail forex today, that ever considers PA on a 1M chart. Nor do I know or trade with any long-term retail forex trader that considers PA on a 1M chart. That is not to say that profitable retail traders do not exist in retail forex that trade a 1M chart. I am stating that moving up to a higher timeframe is, in general, the path to retail trading longevity. And to the point I was trying to make about Peter, who claims to be a long-term trader, if he were in fact a long-term trader, he would not be spending time on a 1M chart, because he would have more experience than to do that."

So, I am not talking about what a friend thinks or says. This is my comment and my thinking. I did not say higher timeframes is the only wat to be successful. In fact, if you will read carefully, you will see that I stated just the opposite of what you claim I said.

As for your comment about my lack of success, and my friends lack of success trading on lower timeframes, you are not correct in your assumption. My friend is in reality, a group of traders that I trade with, numbering over 100. We belong to a group of target traders that all trade the 4H (sometimes the Day chart), and nearly everyone in the group is a former professional trader, with many from the bond market in Chicago, and quite a few former bank currency traders. I am a former management consultant in Chicago, where I owned my consulting firm and focused our time on banks, Chicago trading firms, the CBOE, and the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago. I have been trading with the group for over 15 years, and have a measure of success during that time. I am not a trading expert, but I can trade the hell out of the currency markets using our approach (part of which I have presented in my journal here on FF). I have told this story a number of times on FF, so there is nothing new here. Let me review for you: I trade the 4H market structure, and look for trade setups by examining PA within that structure on the 1H and 10M chart. It did not take me 50,000 hours of practice to get where I am, nor did I suffer from bleeding eyes, but I respect your efforts and the path you took to get where you are now. I do not think I am less a trader because I don't trade the 1M chart. But I respect your success there.

I hope that clears up any misconceptions on your part. Hope you have a good week.
  • #1,616
  • Jun 27, 2021 3:29pm Jun 27, 2021 3:29pm
Quoting GEfx
if he were in fact a long-term trader, he would not be spending time on a 1M chart, because he would have more experience than to do that.
Or, perhaps, he has enough experience to do so. One man's noise is another man's harmony.
"The fun is in the hunt. Not the kill."
  • #1,617
  • Jun 27, 2021 3:43pm Jun 27, 2021 3:43pm
Quoting Redeflect
{quote} ...One man's noise is another man's harmony.
Learn from your mistakes and march on.
  • #1,618
  • Jun 27, 2021 4:17pm Jun 27, 2021 4:17pm
Quoting ryuryu
But in trading everything still covered with magic. Lines, rectangles, fibo levels and luck. No new approaches. Nothing new. Few traders are trying to think different but no one cares.
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This trader's account balance is 300 usd and the account operates with 2.8 mil $ >10900 investor's money. The average monthly profit is 20-30%. Using the averaging - dangerous method. But somehow Asia trading session seems "safe" (was once 300 usd drawdown, that would wipe out all investors with less than 500 usd capital) for that already 3 years.

Using own 300 usd money this trader earns on average 100000 usd monthly as a commission (15% from investors profits).

This is the reason why some people might come to forex factory and similar places to acquire investors/folowers. Those who realized that trading is hard work can find some successful trader to invest in.

Commercial Members cant adverstise their signals all around FF freely. So some of them "teach" (some general concepts but no details) for free... demonstrate a supportive attitude and introduce potential investors with knowledge. It is OK win-win situation: FF get content & trafic, traders get investors, investors find traders.

This is another reason why someone comes here... but yes you are right... holy grail seekers/providers and adventurists here come too.
  • #1,619
  • Jun 27, 2021 4:29pm Jun 27, 2021 4:29pm
Quoting Redeflect
{quote} Or, perhaps, he has enough experience to do so. One man's noise is another man's harmony.
As a general statement, sure why not! But I made my statement in reference to Peter. If you are suggesting Peter is an experienced trader then no, he is incapable of distinguishing between noise, harmony, or the numerous voices shouting in his empty head.
  • #1,620
  • Jun 27, 2021 8:07pm Jun 27, 2021 8:07pm
Quoting mixedbags
{quote} Yes, for the DD I understand the risk. Hence, my entry is always very careful with my reading of the direction bias. {image} These were demo. Let said it I enter trade 1 with 1 lot I believe I will hold till my perceive target. Instead of where I would close if I open 20 lots. Then another opportunity came trade 2 and I will closed where if should be. Because it was another small lot - total trade 1 and trade 2 is 2 lots, I will hold. Now look at the time required and the risk I make myself if I trade small lot size. After closing I could...
This is the DD for holding Trade 1. Yes getting the direction and entry right is crucial for bigger lot size.
My method is always 1 trade at a time, closed Trade 1 then wait for another opportunity and that will be Trade 2.
both trade were exposed in the market for a short duration.
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