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  • #1,221
  • Edited 10:27am May 22, 2021 10:15am | Edited 10:27am
Quoting Koop
{quote} Man on a second look, I agree with Takisd, in comparison to 5ers at least. (The new site is up by the way, with all the details). The direct funding thing is probably not for me either, but if I were to pick any one it would be MFF. However, it only makes sense if you're aiming for at least the $20,000 account. Anything below is just cheating yourself. Okay, the $10,000 emphatic account with 10% max DD and 1:100 lev. Is also not bad For the conventional, compared to 5ers and CTI you get - 1:50 lev 5% max DD (which eliminates the risk of...
slight correction, was asking about the 100k acct ( then the max offer) with the 10k paid up for the max dd ( 10%)
the other part i fully agree, 50/50 split makes no sense when the trader responsible for all the dd alone...70/30 does make sense in such scenario.

like the above example, i wrote on 5ers, the risk shouldering flips when the trader progress from initial lvl1 to lvl2, and gets 4x equity.

else,
would someone smart be kind and explain my what is assured funding means? (highlighted line), those numbers doesnt make any sense to me in any way i can think of...

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many thx in advance!

oh, almost forget: with the 50% split, the Emphatic version of 10% max dd would need to produce 20% profit to be back to cost (BE) for the trader at 50/50 split...not at all an ideal proposal really.
with careful trading that doesnt happen overnight.
looking at my 2021 stat of my main trading acct, that is 4 months of trading literally, bcos the weekly payout also means there is literally nothing to compound. give some, take some. that is a rather long time to get back the money paid upfront. one could argue that it is so easy to consistently make 10-20% monthly, so why average 5%, but i beg to differ when it comes for consistent returns on the longer run.
there is always, always another trade!!
  • #1,222
  • May 22, 2021 10:21am May 22, 2021 10:21am
Quoting Koop
{quote} Man on a second look, I agree with Takisd, in comparison to 5ers at least. (The new site is up by the way, with all the details). The direct funding thing is probably not for me either, but if I were to pick any one it would be MFF. However, it only makes sense if you're aiming for at least the $20,000 account. Anything below is just cheating yourself. Okay, the $10,000 emphatic account with 10% max DD and 1:100 lev. Is also not bad For the conventional, compared to 5ers and CTI you get - 1:50 lev 5% max DD (which eliminates the risk of...

Absolutely agree. Frankly I think the cost is way too high and 50% is not attractive. $5000 for a $50k account? WOW!
  • #1,223
  • May 22, 2021 10:40am May 22, 2021 10:40am
Quoting Takisd
{quote} If risk = drawdown then you start with 0 risk as the firm. There is definitely a way to make it work sending trades to the market but definitely not a way if you are giving more drawdown than the fee to enter.
Which brings up the point, there is absolutely 0 benefit to the trader with these models. I have 100% of my personal account which will allow the same size positions as the prop firm. Doesn't matter the leverage they are offering, 50:1 with 5% DD allows 10 pips before you lose the account and the same with 100:1 with 10% DD. So once again, you will be reduced to trading sizes that one could accomplish in one's own account and keep 100%.

I am probably one of the biggest PRO prop firm advocates out there, but these models flat out suck for the trader. I also understand the firm perspective as well, not wanting to risk anything on unproven trader. However, in the end, the firm makes out big time....with 0 risk, they are simply allowing one to fund their own account and then grabbing 35,40,50% .
  • #1,224
  • May 22, 2021 10:46am May 22, 2021 10:46am
Quoting profitfarmer
{quote} FWIW the 5ers acct seem to be real, feel to be real, acts as real (use the mt5). bcos a lot tighter rules, assume that discourage most gambling attempts, the period is a longer min days trading period too. since the leverage limits very large lot type all or nothing trading, and every position have to have a SL attached, those probably also serve toward screening out the traders more serious about responsible money handling. plus for the initial stage (lvl1) which generally equals the challenge+verification sort of, the firm is fully covered...
They are not taking a leap of faith if they have you on live from the get go. They made 50% of your profits on stage 1 plus your fee. Not quite equal to the new DD, but close enough. If you pass stage 2, from that point you are an ATM for them as there risk is completely gone and they are now just keeping 50%. I don't care how anyone spins this, from a pure math perspective, it is a one sided deal in huge favor of the 5%ers.
  • #1,225
  • May 22, 2021 10:48am May 22, 2021 10:48am
Quoting Koop
{quote} Man on a second look, I agree with Takisd, in comparison to 5ers at least. (The new site is up by the way, with all the details). The direct funding thing is probably not for me either, but if I were to pick any one it would be MFF. However, it only makes sense if you're aiming for at least the $20,000 account. Anything below is just cheating yourself. Okay, the $10,000 emphatic account with 10% max DD and 1:100 lev. Is also not bad For the conventional, compared to 5ers and CTI you get - 1:50 lev 5% max DD (which eliminates the risk of...
Leverage is irrelevant, if you max out the leverage on either model, you have a 10 pip stop loss before violating. The DD is the factor, and once again you will be reduced to trading sizes you can accomplish on your own.
  • #1,226
  • May 22, 2021 10:58am May 22, 2021 10:58am
Just to clarify, I like MFF. I am doing a 100K eval right now and plan on maxing whatever they allow on THAT MODEL. Will trade it alongside my 200K FTMO.
I just feel like these other models are an absolute "play on numbers" and very deceiving as I see folks with well above average math skills (myself included, initially) thinking it's a good deal. Once you plug the numbers of what you can "realistically" trade with those DD limits, it's simply indisputable math. Of course, one can convince oneself of whatever they'd like to believe.
  • #1,227
  • May 22, 2021 11:01am May 22, 2021 11:01am
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} They are not taking a leap of faith if they have you on live from the get go. They made 50% of your profits on stage 1 plus your fee. Not quite equal to the new DD, but close enough. If you pass stage 2, from that point you are an ATM for them as there risk is completely gone and they are now just keeping 50%. I don't care how anyone spins this, from a pure math perspective, it is a one sided deal in huge favor of the 5%ers.
close enough is how close enough?

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take the 52k program....

start 13k, profit target 910$(7%)....fee 565$
50% of profit firm keeps = 455$
initial fee + profit = 1020$

new acct equity 52k
max allowed dd = 4% = 2080$

i get your bitter attitude, but if for a moment stop being a millennial snowflake, and let the math sink in, you can probably see some "leap of faith" there in the numbers!!
seriously, why waste time??
is it too much to assume one have a calculator and not go by "feelings" when approach a number issue?!
trading is inherently a business full of numbers.
if you cant see the difference, you are blind!
there is always, always another trade!!
  • #1,228
  • May 22, 2021 11:38am May 22, 2021 11:38am
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} Which brings up the point, there is absolutely 0 benefit to the trader with these models. I have 100% of my personal account which will allow the same size positions as the prop firm. Doesn't matter the leverage they are offering, 50:1 with 5% DD allows 10 pips before you lose the account and the same with 100:1 with 10% DD. So once again, you will be reduced to trading sizes that one could accomplish in one's own account and keep 100%. I am probably one of the biggest PRO prop firm advocates out there, but these models flat out suck for...
i think you are missing the margin factor in the equation. 20%of 10k is more than 20%of 1k... margin calls etc are a big factor in size too. You'd need 1:500 and 0% stop out to match it

also the scaling happens even after you withdraw profits.. so theres that.. someone in the discord did the math its like 244k better off when you reach the 50k max guaranteed and you have actually withdrawn it
  • #1,229
  • May 22, 2021 12:16pm May 22, 2021 12:16pm
Quoting profitfarmer
{quote} close enough is how close enough? {image} take the 52k program.... start 13k, profit target 910$(7%)....fee 565$ 50% of profit firm keeps = 455$ initial fee + profit = 1020$ new acct equity 52k max allowed dd = 4% = 2080$ i get your bitter attitude, but if for a moment stop being a millennial snowflake, and let the math sink in, you can probably see some "leap of faith" there in the numbers!! seriously, why waste time?? is it too much to assume one have a calculator and not go by "feelings" when approach a number issue?! trading is...
Ok, now do the math through stage 3, they've now collected 4680, new DD is 4160. It just gets worse from there. You see after the initial 4x, it only doubles from that point. But, hey, spin it however you see fit.
  • #1,230
  • May 22, 2021 12:34pm May 22, 2021 12:34pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} Ok, now do the math through stage 3, they've now collected 4680, new DD is 4160. It just gets worse from there. You see after the initial 4x, it only doubles from that point. But, hey, spin it however you see fit.
err,
the spinning is by you.
claim was the 5ers at no point risk and your fees cover anything...which is factually untrue. the rest just your mambojambo.
get your facts straight, not just throw around bold claims.

i couldnt be bothered to write about "advanced" things like free margin and stopout, but Takisd was kind and pointed them out anyhow.
your ego got hurt failing so fast, no problem, happens.
but do check your facts before make generalized bold claims. it would benefit you on the long run.
there is always, always another trade!!
  • #1,231
  • May 22, 2021 12:42pm May 22, 2021 12:42pm
Quoting profitfarmer
{quote} err, the spinning is by you. claim was the 5ers at no point risk and your fees cover anything...which is factually untrue. the rest just your mambojambo. get your facts straight, not just throw around bold claims. i couldnt be bothered to write about "advanced" things like free margin and stopout, but Takisd was kind and pointed them out anyhow. your ego got hurt failing so fast, no problem, happens. but do check your facts before make generalized bold claims. it would benefit you on the long run.
Ah, no math rebuttal after stage 3? Correct, as there isn't one. Actually, my initial statement is the "fee" would be better in a personal account. I have proven, over and over again, after stage 3, personal account blows the 5%ers account away from an overall equity stand point. Not even taking into consideration, giving up 50% of your profits. Stage1, 5%ers have no skin in the game, stage 2, OK, some, after stage 3, they are taking 50% after you basically funded your own account. As far as being bitter, I'm glad I failed as it opened my eyes to the fact that it offers absolutely no benefit to a trader.
Last post on this topic, to each their own I guess. I tried it, I failed it, I learned from it.
  • #1,232
  • May 22, 2021 12:46pm May 22, 2021 12:46pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} Ah, no math rebuttal after stage 3? Correct, as there isn't one. Actually, my initial statement is the "fee" would be better in a personal account. I have proven, over and over again, after stage 3, personal account blows the 5%ers account away from an overall equity stand point. Not even taking into consideration, giving up 50% of your profits. Stage1, 5%ers have no skin in the game, stage 2, OK, some, after stage 3, they are taking 50% after you basically funded your own account. As far as being bitter, I'm glad I failed as it opened my...
err, again
so after stage#1 & stage#2....is there a withdrawal/profit split?
did you calculate the way that it can be then traded on a personal acct after received, and earn the same 100% profit?
happy your eyes are open.
next step to open up your mind too
dont thank me!
there is always, always another trade!!
  • #1,233
  • May 22, 2021 12:49pm May 22, 2021 12:49pm
Quoting profitfarmer
{quote} err, again so after stage#1 & stage#2....is there a withdrawal/profit split? did you calculate the way that it can be then traded on a personal acct after received, and earn the same 100% profit? happy your eyes are open. next step to open up your mind too dont thank me!
When I have a couple of hours I can't find anything else to do with, I will post a spreadsheet. Actually someone else already has, for CTI, though, but same concept.
  • #1,234
  • May 22, 2021 12:57pm May 22, 2021 12:57pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} When I have a couple of hours I can't find anything else to do with, I will post a spreadsheet. Actually someone else already has, for CTI, though, but same concept.
the 5ers math is pretty umm complicated and i think you are right on it. But I don't think that it applies to everyones programs and a 2 or 3 % shift either way completely changes the math.

To me i won't be buying the program at MFF since that was the topic of this conversation, but its the first one that feels attractive to me that is direct funding. Other than that guy who has the rusty boat in his backyard and does interviews from his bedroom, his program ROCKS but i know its a scam because no one is gonna let me lose that much money without even knowing me.
  • #1,235
  • May 22, 2021 1:00pm May 22, 2021 1:00pm
Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} When I have a couple of hours I can't find anything else to do with, I will post a spreadsheet. Actually someone else already has, for CTI, though, but same concept.
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  • #1,236
  • May 22, 2021 1:02pm May 22, 2021 1:02pm
Quoting Takisd
{quote} the 5ers math is pretty umm complicated and i think you are right on it. But I don't think that it applies to everyones programs and a 2 or 3 % shift either way completely changes the math. To me i won't be buying the program at MFF since that was the topic of this conversation, but its the first one that feels attractive to me that is direct funding. Other than that guy who has the rusty boat in his backyard and does interviews from his bedroom, his program ROCKS but i know its a scam because no one is gonna let me lose that much money...
Yes, I just feel the eval/challenge model is so much more superior. $499 for 12 K DD, and then you're funded at 100K , still with 12 % DD and 75/80/85% split. They are even paying, 2% and 4% on eval and verification, so $160 and $200, which equates to more than what they would pay as a profit split on the 10000 "live" account for the same cost of $500. 8% on the 5K would pay you $200 and 5% will pay you $125. Then you are trading 100K with 12% instead of 5K with 5%????? Um, no brainer. Actually, I'm off there, would be a 10K account for $500, so you'd get 400 and 250. So, yes, you'd make $300 more upfront for your initial effort of 8% and 5%.
  • #1,237
  • Edited 2:17pm May 22, 2021 2:05pm | Edited 2:17pm
Quoting Takisd
{quote} the 5ers math is pretty umm complicated and i think you are right on it. But I don't think that it applies to everyones programs and a 2 or 3 % shift either way completely changes the math. To me i won't be buying the program at MFF since that was the topic of this conversation, but its the first one that feels attractive to me that is direct funding. Other than that guy who has the rusty boat in his backyard and does interviews from his bedroom, his program ROCKS but i know its a scam because no one is gonna let me lose that much money...
i agree, Tradingprop offers the best Direct funding plan so far, but that's the same reason it feels shady.(btw i tried using google earth to find this boat in his backyard but nothing turned up).

MFF is better than the rest, even though not by a huge margin, but it's obvious enough to me.

Quoting pipmaster77
{quote} Leverage is irrelevant, if you max out the leverage on either model, you have a 10 pip stop loss before violating. The DD is the factor, and once again you will be reduced to trading sizes you can accomplish on your own.
Leverage is very Relevant man, In fact, if all the firms including FTMO were forced by regulation to start offering only 4% max DD, what would be the Tie breaker for you when choosing who to go with? Mine would definitely be Leverage.

Yes, you're right about having to trade tiny sizes that you could probably trade on your personal account...
But that's only at the initial stages of getting the account though.

Remember Pip, the only reason any of us even bother to try these funding firms is to have more buying power/margin to trade. That's the Primary reason, and that's more about leverage than max allowed loss.

If 5ers allowed up to 50% of Drawdown but gave you a $10K account at 1:6, what difference does it really make compared to the current conditions? It only increases how much you can lose but it does almost absolutely nothing for how much you can make.


5ers - $10,000 at 1:6 = $60,000 worth of buying power

A Trader that trades only EURUSD does not even have enough margin to trade more than 0.35 mini lots with a 10 pip stop at any point in time with $10,000 5ers account even if they are no where close to breaching their Max DD.
Thus, you can have all the DD in the world but because of this leverage restriction that limits your earning potential, you are not allowed to risk even up to 0.5% of your $10,000 account on just one EURUSD trade at a time, not to talk of having multiple open trades.
Defeats the purpose of paying for a funded account IMO.

MFF - $10,000 at 1:50 = $500,000 worth of Buying power

Same EURUSD example. But in this case you have available to you the ability to open up more than 5 standard lots if you wanted. You have the allowance to risk upto 1% per trade on 5 trades before your margin is exhausted. Thus, more buying power and more potential to earn, grow your balance and scale up faster.

In this prop game, the way i see it, Leverage is just as (if not more) important as DD limit.

WIth both firms, one could decide to trade very small positions early on, risking small percentages of the account per trade in order to stay far away from breaching DD Limits. But as the account grows and the Max DD limit grows with it, a trader should then have the opportunity to choose if they want to take on bigger risks (thanks to the buffer they have created for themselves) so they could take advantage of this "large trading balance" , but somehow with 5ers this opporunity is still stifled and limited.
  • #1,238
  • May 22, 2021 2:17pm May 22, 2021 2:17pm
Quoting Koop
{quote} i agree, Tradingprop offers the best Direct funding plan so far, but that's the same reason it feels shady.(btw i tried using google earth to find this boat in his backyard but nothing turned up). MFF is better than the rest, even though not by a huge margin, but it's obvious enough to me. {quote} Leverage is very Relevant man, In fact, if all the firms including FTMO were forced by regulation to start offering only 4% max DD, what would be the Tie breaker for you when choosing who to go with? Mine would definitely be Leverage. Yes, you're...
Right, but my point is if you are actually going to use the 50:1, you are done with a 10 pip move against you. That's what I mean by irrelevant, it's still all about the DD. You simply can only lose so much, so you must adjust your leverage to reflect what you can lose.
  • #1,239
  • May 22, 2021 2:32pm May 22, 2021 2:32pm
MFF had 1000 traders sign up for Evaluation Aggressive accounts. Only 9 traders moved to live accounts and 2 traders remain live today (numbers mentioned by MFF on their webinar). How about this for interesting statistics.

MFF discontinued Evaluation Aggressive accounts for now due to too high failure. They made loads of money from all those failed traders but I like that they stopped the program to rework it to find a way to lower the failure rate. This way less people lose money. Wondering if FTMO would do the same.

MFF could've easily kept Aggressive accounts and continue collecting fees from 100s of failed Evaluations.

It's interesting to see how many people are willing to gamble away their money in few days.
  • #1,240
  • May 22, 2021 2:33pm May 22, 2021 2:33pm
I've done some math for everyone to demonstrate the difference between eval and live on the MFF. Going to compare the 200K eval vs the 20K live conventional as they are approx the same cost. 949 vs 970.
1st "stage" requires 8% on eval, which pays you 2% $320 same 8% on 20K live pays you $800
2nd "stage" requires 5% pays you 4% $400 same 5% on 20K live pays you $500
you are now trading a 200K account on eval model and you are now scaled to 40K on live

Going to assume 5% per month from here on just for simplicity

1st month funded 200K @ 5% @ 75% split $7500 on eval 40K @5% @ 50% split $1000 on live
112% refund of 949 $1062 on eval
2nd month @ 80% split $8000 on eval 40k @ 5% @ 50% split $1000 on live
you are now scaled to 60K on live (as they alternate 2x and 1.5X)
3rd month @85% split $8500 on eval 60K @ 5% $1500 on live

Total $25782on eval vs$4800 on live

Assuming the 5% moving forward, in month11, the live account will begin generating $9K per month, but you will have earned $46,982 more in the eval model at that point. This also does not take into account the 30% scaling which would have occurred twice on the eval, putting you at 320 K generating a split of $13,600 on the eval now.

You can plug these numbers for any "challenge" company vs. any "scaling" company. It really is just simple math.
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