DislikedHappy Sunday all ! Of course, it depends on what strategies are used. And FTMO is definitely better in some regards, for some strategies. But I think were missing some perspective on the value of 5%ers and the likes that have decent enough scaling plans. Just based on one of my own accounts, running on low leverage for almost 10 years now: If I had enrolled in 5%ers at any moment, and without hitting their stop-out, I would be trading their million account after 16-21 months, making 1 to 5% return a month, all from a measly 275$. My own funds would...Ignored
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- #1,025
- Edited 2:13pm May 16, 2021 11:31am | Edited 2:13pm
- Joined Sep 2020 | Status: Trader | 8,702 Posts
{quote} Well, if your position size with the %5ers was larger than $275 in your personal account....you most certainly would have hit the 4% DD. The math is a couple posts above. Math is math, it is not an opinion. If you have $200 DD with the 5%ers and $275(the fee you pay for $200 in DD) total equity in a personal account, you can actual trade slightly larger sizes in the personal account. I really cannot understand how people cannot see through this......If you are paying a fee greater than the amount of money you may lose....How is this beneficial?...
I had already seen your interesting calculations... Thank you
Either you have not even read my post, not understood it, or have decided to ignore some of it in order to not feel contradicted. But there were no contradictions.
With math, you are right, with your scenario.
With math, I am right, with my scenario. No opinions.
I know some people would like to think about the possibilities just a little bit more, so I have shared a different view based on my own personal data.
Sorry to be a bother.
Nothing to add.
Except that, remember all, I never would have had to risk anything more than 275$ in all those months. And 5%ers taking all the ongoing risk... And I would never use the high leverage necessary for the "use your own account" scenario to even come close to being possible, no matter what consistent returns I have had in the past...
.... that have decent enough scaling plans. Just based on one of my own accounts, running on low leverage for almost 10 years now: If I had enrolled in 5%ers at any moment, and without hitting their stop-out, I would be trading their million account after 16-21 months, making 1 to 5% return a month, all from a measly 275$. My own funds would be being used elsewhere. And no, that would not be possible with only a 275$ account, as it seems to be believe by some here.
If I don't mention SL and/or TP = longer-term setup possibly in the works!
- #1,026
- May 16, 2021 11:48am May 16, 2021 11:48am
- Joined Dec 2005 | Status: Com Member = Scammer | 5,408 Posts
- #1,030
- May 16, 2021 1:41pm May 16, 2021 1:41pm
- | Commercial User | Joined Aug 2014 | 3,922 Posts
there is always, always another trade!!
- #1,031
- May 16, 2021 1:58pm May 16, 2021 1:58pm
- | Commercial User | Joined Aug 2014 | 3,922 Posts
{quote} Thanks for the detailed calculations, now I see what you mean. Yes, you're absolutely right from that perspective, it's not a great deal at all. But on the other hand, just like Mtako said, on a funded account your only risk is the initial fee, after that, not a single of your dimes is on the line, ever! It looks to me that, by copying trades, one can have the best of both worlds working along side each other.
@pipmaster77 didnt calculate the option the the earnings would actually do make 100% profit going forward on the personal acct.
i also unclear how the 'risk of ruin' looked at...i am pretty sure my personal acct will cut off well before ( probably 50% margin?) if use the max position size in the example...and not at 'ruin =0 equity'.
copying between accts when and where applicable, saves on effort. be that within other prop accts, or between private and prop to benefit both the same time when there were already prop earnings withdrawn.
and a final though what is largely overlooked.
the like of Axiselect or Darwinex one can use any acct to qualify....well, almost any...any LIVE acct, and not a demo.
one's prop challenge/funded acct could or would do that job...if not a demo acct in question; for example CTI, 5ers are live...
to tie in, a highly overleveraged small personal acct, especially until less than 1000$, may not qualify to the same opportunities.
i am fully onboard of the last statement about the "End goal being a large enough personal account to meet your financial goals"
to add, tradign typically have a pressure factor, and thus in my opinion is preferable to not load on a trader more than necessary, ie if/when challenge time pressure is avoidable, the less pressure will not only benefit the prop acct, but also the personal trading acct result.
happy weekend!
Z
there is always, always another trade!!
- #1,032
- May 16, 2021 2:19pm May 16, 2021 2:19pm
- Joined Dec 2005 | Status: Com Member = Scammer | 5,408 Posts
- #1,034
- May 16, 2021 2:39pm May 16, 2021 2:39pm
- Joined Sep 2020 | Status: Trader | 8,702 Posts
If I don't mention SL and/or TP = longer-term setup possibly in the works!
- #1,038
- May 16, 2021 3:09pm May 16, 2021 3:09pm
- Joined Sep 2020 | Status: Trader | 8,702 Posts
{quote} But if you consider it over-leveraging in the personal account, how is it not over-leveraging in the 4% DD model. It will still be the exact same number of trades that will end the account. Bottom line is you have the same amount of $$$$ to lose (actually less in the 4% DD model). Unless you are changing your risk model, it is EXACTLY the same thing.
Also, you are the one changing the risk model on the "ones own account" to fit your calculations in order to justify that ones own 275$ account is better than going for the corresponding 5%ers account...
Again, I do not say you are wrong, but just know that in regards to my own trading, there are other important criteria to be considered.
With utmost respect,
If I don't mention SL and/or TP = longer-term setup possibly in the works!
- #1,039
- May 16, 2021 3:38pm May 16, 2021 3:38pm
- | Commercial User | Joined Aug 2014 | 3,922 Posts
{quote} Yes, the details may not be exact. The point is, though, by stage 3 your personal account will be double the 5%ers, CTI or any other similar model where fee is greater than loss allowed and there is a 4% DD. You're also keeping 100%. As far as "risk of ruin", it's simply the amount you can lose, in a personal account, yes, it is the entire balance and if that figure is larger than the risk of ruin (amount you can lose) with a prop firm, there is simply no scenario where that money isn't better in your own account. What you do with Axi is...
you been on the challeneg vs OutThere on a losing streak, pretty much every entry...
which is OK...but for a moment try to recall: how did it feel?
use up on a prop 1/2 the allotted dd, if tight time limit...not a big deal.
if tight time limit, a high chance to fail, with only real escape plan is to go big and pray for luck.
losing 1/2 your personal acct, and i guarantee you that you are the most likely to start to gamble with the rest, but the very least it will definitely play with your orderly, patient, and well executed trading.
anyone been long around probably would feel similarly.
the solution: not put yourself deep into pressure where it is avoidable.
a 500$ personal acct, trading it near fully leveraged ...it hardly is. trading it lower margin/pressure, the numbers wont add up the same. catch-22.
but on the longer run, you could say stage1-3 time is, likely that extra pressure will get to you, one way or another.
if look at Darwinex top acct, most produce low returns, in comparison, the majority probably make about "only" 2% a month /24%pa.
wonder why the low VAR is cultivated, and low return is accepted?
longevity.
the opposite end of lucky gambling.
anyways, what i was saying,
2-3 accts can exist alongside, and it isnt that difficult to find a copier to do the sizing.
as for the 4% dd, or whatever, it is more important if that is a static 4% from last HWM, or a dynamic ( relative dd), daily updated number.
for example the max dd Axiselect allows, is from HWM to HWM period, ie the profit gained during the month can be used as additional dd.
gain +5%, now you have 15% to use till end of month...start slow and build it up.
my understanding that 5ers -4% dd also is a static...ie while at making the gains, your stopout remain the same point. thus start slow, and build up some cushion.
for the end: i am just a trader. i dont have a lambo or any supercar for that matter. i dont have extra money to gamble away with 10s of challenges in hope a few times i get lucky on a single large lot, nor i have time to make demo trials and lie to myself if isnt that how i can pass.
i have a living to make( from trading), and i have learned that the more i need to gamble the better it relates to my emotional well being, and the more likely that i will gamble the wrong time as a mistake. so i simple try to avoid putting myself unnecessarily in that spot.
as for what is crystal clear, let me use a personal example: when i need to drive to Bkk, there is regular road true many cities, light, dogs...and there is a toll highway. overall the highway wont save money, plus cost some extra...but result a more relaxing drive. some would say it cost a few dollars more, and is silly. some say it worth the lowered stress level. both would be right.
then some would take the bus and dont drive.
it isnt black ror white only.
there is always, always another trade!!
