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Trading with no stop loss

  • #261
  • Apr 29, 2021 2:38pm Apr 29, 2021 2:38pm
split your investment capital and withdraw regularly if you use leverage... ok. it's not hard to understand.
  • #262
  • Apr 29, 2021 3:06pm Apr 29, 2021 3:06pm
Quoting HeyYou
split your investment capital and withdraw regularly
I do both and still use a SL.

If you have no SL in none of your accounts the split is practically insignificant since all your accounts are exposed to 100% losses.

And if you withdraw too much too regularly you're stuck with a small account.
  • #263
  • Apr 30, 2021 1:38am Apr 30, 2021 1:38am
Quoting ElTrades
all your accounts are exposed to 100% losses.
you can also win big due to the massive compounding
  • #264
  • Apr 30, 2021 5:57am Apr 30, 2021 5:57am
Quoting HeyYou
{quote} you can also win big due to the massive compounding
ofc... massive compounding still applies if you use a SL... and the larger the capital the safer I wanna keep it
  • #265
  • Apr 30, 2021 7:40am Apr 30, 2021 7:40am
Quoting ElTrades
{quote} ofc... massive compounding still applies if you use a SL... and the larger the capital the safer I wanna keep it
in fact this type of MM is not meant for large accounts obviously. splitting your investment is a must.
  • #266
  • Edited 8:10am May 1, 2021 7:40am | Edited 8:10am
Quoting HeyYou
{quote} in fact this type of MM is not meant for large accounts obviously. splitting your investment is a must.
agree, one account and 10 trades all semi correlated is very .. tame

was thinking today about 'bad leverage' and 'good leverage'.. is there such a thing and in what context

eg: 1:100 on a 10k balance what is 'good leverage' in terms of position size? the reward and risk of a 3x standard deviation ?

you can leverage a home, but the expectation is that the surplus will be available.. the problem comes when it isn't and the guys jack rates up

or over leverage into a house and get out of it in 6 months minimum.. that would be the comparison, it assumes you know the market

so the over-riding context in this style is that a pair needs to have form, otherwise its just a shot in the dark
grist for the mill
  • #267
  • May 1, 2021 11:30am May 1, 2021 11:30am
Quoting JackJones
{quote} agree, one account and 10 trades all semi correlated is very .. tame was thinking today about 'bad leverage' and 'good leverage'.. is there such a thing and in what context eg: 1:100 on a 10k balance what is 'good leverage' in terms of position size? the reward and risk of a 3x standard deviation ? you can leverage a home, but the expectation is that the surplus will be available.. the problem comes when it isn't and the guys jack rates up or over leverage into a house and get out of it in 6 months minimum.. that would be the comparison,...
Good question... it depends on many factors such as how much you diversify, the strategy, the volatility of the market... things can get very complex.

anyways.. I have a trading account with an EU broker so my leverage is 1:30... a little more would be better but I think that is enough to grow a $100 account quite quickly... what I hate is the 50% stop out level... you know what I mean.
  • #268
  • May 2, 2021 6:17pm May 2, 2021 6:17pm
Get stop-out level is something that not expected, trading without stop loss may be the last stop loss when position against the trend and level margin already reached a threshold, if the trader does not injects funds, it possible all orders close automatically by broker.
  • #269
  • May 2, 2021 7:19pm May 2, 2021 7:19pm
If not trading with a stop loss the currency price could possibly reach a highest high or lowest low eventually causing a margin stop out unless more funds are added to the trading account
CVMForex OF All Time Return: na
  • #270
  • May 2, 2021 7:30pm May 2, 2021 7:30pm
Without utilizing “insurance”, the market will eventually eats us alive ...
Market is not random but unpredictable
  • #271
  • May 3, 2021 7:10am May 3, 2021 7:10am
I know people are conservative about money. They want to know how much they will lose or win. That's normal and understandable.

But there's something they miss: forex trading is just like any other business. It's not much different than managing your own restaurant, cafe etc. I know because i have worked in restaurants and butcher shops. Sometimes you add something to your menu and you invest in it but nobody buys it so basically it goes to trash bin. Loss. Also like Fx Traders, 80% of business owners close their doors within a year.

What i am trying to say is, this is not a 9 to 5 job. You can't really have "guaranteed" profits or losses. That's why most of the traders are saying "price hit my stop loss first but then it worked in my way without me" or "i took my profits but i could have make more money if i didn't"

You can use stop losses or take profits of course, sometimes i use them too. But you shouldn't be strict or conservative about this. This is a business, there's no guarantee. You shouldn't be static in a fast changing, dynamic market. I generally open and close my positions by hand. And i calculate my risk depending on pip value, not stop loss. I haven't seen a problem for a year.
You have to have an IQ higher than 90 to interact with this user.
  • #272
  • May 4, 2021 5:10am May 4, 2021 5:10am
forex is different though we use magic numbers and lines and and luck!

yes its part of idea that one method works forever when it never does - the use of no stops relies on many other factors like actually knowing the market/pair, and sometimes you don't, and somethimes you think you do and still dont, mistakes indeed.. eg, if i'm going for a 100x it might take me 3-4 months to decide a certain pair is ready, yet they didn't see that mentioned maybe so we get the usual replies - the point of specialization on a method helps heaps

anyhow good words nordling00! you may pass
grist for the mill
  • #273
  • May 6, 2021 3:34am May 6, 2021 3:34am
Quoting HeyYou
so are you telling me that there are no alternatives ? trading negatively correlated instruments (aka hedging) ... diversification... all bs ?
Sorry for the late response.

Hedging / trading negatively correlated pairs. Personally seems like a huge risk.

I've never really played with hedging, if you don't mind me asking you a serious question. AUD has been in a very aggressive trend since Nov, and there were a fair amount of TEs showing people with 500-1000 pips of draw down on EURAUD longs. How do you hedge this? As an example lets say that a random trader takes a long on EURAUD and his trade is 100 pips against him and he opens a hedge. When does he get out of his hedge? maybe 30 or 50 pips of profit? All the while that EURAUD is steadily dropping. Lets say that the trader does this 3 or 4 times and grabs 150-200 pips of profit, that's only a 1/5 of his draw down if his trades hit -1000 pips, which this example did and does happen to traders here every day.

IMO in trading, money is a tool and holding on to a bad position is wasting your tools. To me it makes so much more sense to cut a bad trade, I make bad trades all the time, I make mistakes and it doesn't make sense to let a mistake destroy me. But granted I use my margin, I max out my margin when I open a position, but I'm in the US so margin is 50:1.

Quoting HeyYou
split your investment capital and withdraw regularly if you use leverage... ok. it's not hard to understand.
This statement isn't as straight forward as it seems, unless you are regularly making large gains I.E. doubling your account every few weeks/months it doesn't make sense.

Lets say a trader makes 20% a month and with draws his profits at the end of each month. After 5 months they've double their account, great.. But lets say that 6th and 7th month price goes into a trend and they get margin called and lose their trading account. Well technically they would break even, thats good right? IMO that trader wasted 7 months of their time for nothing.

I spend a fair amount of time looking at TEs on the trade tab, its crazy. People will have a 90% win rate, but they are carrying 1000s of pips in draw down and looking at their closed trades, almost all of them will be 20 pips of profit or less. I always want to ask them, what if you did it the opposite way? Dumped the losers for 20 pips or less and held on to the winners for 1000s of pips?
  • #274
  • Edited 9:41pm May 6, 2021 9:24pm | Edited 9:41pm
Quoting Anotan
{quote}AUD has been in a very aggressive trend since Nov, and there were a fair amount of TEs showing people with 500-1000 pips of draw down on EURAUD longs. How do you hedge this?
as someone who farms aud and survived 500 pips swings against me i can tell you i didn't hedge then

people can hedge if they like but generally i don't see hedging with a correlated pair as correlations are not guaranteed, but of course it might make sense to others

my only hedge idea/method is to range trade and take the same position BOTH ways in different accounts, sure you might pay the spread but its minimal these days and if you pick the Value aREA correctly it should swing both ways and hit your TPs -- if it doesn't hit one its then you become a real trader, you need to buy/sell the swings until you can get out, and yes many will fail to hold because this is where equity management is crucial, you need to cover the worst case and most will not want to consider it - we are taking dumping ten times the base equity into the account to survive

if you have a swing against you you need to go to higher time frames like 1d and look at the 3xdeviation and buy the big dips against you until it snaps back, of course that's why it does snap back because people have to buy bigger size and the sellers eventually run out of ammo and the tide turns

i have also see accounts holding multiple pairs with positions against them, if you're think about doing it I would stick to one pair only and see if you can manage it
grist for the mill
  • #275
  • May 7, 2021 1:17am May 7, 2021 1:17am
Quoting Anotan
AUD has been in a very aggressive trend since Nov, and there were a fair amount of TEs showing people with 500-1000 pips of draw down on EURAUD longs. How do you hedge this?
Sorry, I don't trade FX. I mean hedging stocks with commodities like platinum etc.


Quoting Anotan
I always want to ask them, what if you did it the opposite way? Dumped the losers for 20 pips or less and held on to the winners for 1000s of pips?
yeah, but does it work ? I tried using 20-200 pips stops and it didn't work.. at least with no sl I had some fun.
  • #276
  • May 7, 2021 2:01am May 7, 2021 2:01am
Quoting HeyYou
{quote} yeah, but does it work ? I tried using 20-200 pips stops and it didn't work.. at least with no sl I had some fun.
Yep it works, biggest stop I use is 25 pips, but most are less than 15.. Been posting trades as they happen for a few years now in the VSA thread. But granted I have to be patient and can't open trades whenever.

I do understand that there is more than one way to skin a cat, especially in trading so I'm trying to understand. My biggest issue, is when traders don't have a firm plan on exiting trades when things go wrong. But I guess that's the difference between traders, with what you said "at least with no sl I had some fun." it kinda sounds like trading is more of a pastime. Like I said in my first post on this thread, I'm not here for coffee money, so I have to look at things differently.
  • #277
  • May 7, 2021 4:45am May 7, 2021 4:45am
Quoting HeyYou
{quote} this type of MM is not meant for large accounts
if it doesn't work for large accounts no point in using it, fail small or fail big, still fails.
  • #278
  • May 7, 2021 6:06am May 7, 2021 6:06am
Quoting ElTrades
{quote} if it doesn't work for large accounts no point in using it, fail small or fail big, still fails.

it is likely to fail on a large account because you have only ONE attempt. if you don't get it I'm sorry.
  • #279
  • May 7, 2021 7:00am May 7, 2021 7:00am
Quoting HeyYou
{quote} if you don't get it I'm sorry.
likewise
  • #280
  • Edited 9:49am May 7, 2021 7:10am | Edited 9:49am
Quoting Anotan
. Like I said in my first post on this thread, I'm not here for coffee money, so I have to look at things differently.
coffee money here is $5 for one, maybe you drink 4 like a boss? add that up and its about same amount my investment property returns after all the costs each month and i've got more than 100k in that money sucker.. so it's all about perspective and circumstance, so making coffee money on 500$ invested seems rather good!


its kind of like low cost retail, the seller needs to sell push volumes to turn a quick buck before the demographics change.. other shops are all about the bling and they can sell one thing a month and still stay a float.. i think you might be the later?

of course this can fail on a big account, you want to double 100k in a month? well do you have 500k sitting somewhere to pump into a big swing? because you might need it.. that's what leverage is about
grist for the mill
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