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Trading vs Gambling: Which One Is More Worth Your Time?

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  • Which One Is More Worth Your Time?
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  • Post #1
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  • First Post: Apr 17, 2021 3:57am Apr 17, 2021 3:57am
  •  remonpilip
  • Joined Nov 2019 | Status: Member | 164 Posts
I say Gambling, blackjack in particular.

Why?

Well isn't it obvious?

In Trading/Investing world you are by yourself against Billions / Millions of people and possibly Insider Traders with distinct Information Asymmetry depending on your market.

whilst in Gambling (blackjack in particular) you are against the house and some other people. And on some rare occasion you are against cheaters.
Whilst on trading world, insider information are circulated daily -be that a good tip or a fake tip-

There is no certainty in the market, because different people perceived different information -imperfect information- and they have different view, some people in Asia can buy the Yen because of some unknown reason and other people in Australia might sell the Yen because some Tipster on TV said so.
In short: the market can go up or it can go down.

There is certainty in blackjack because the deck that is used is predictable (i.e. there are only four A,K,Q,J,10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2)
K, Q, J, 10 values' are equal to 10
9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2 values' are the same as it's number
A can be 11 or 1 depending on the card holder (player)

a deck consists of 52 cards
there are 16 cards with the value 10 (K spade, K hearts, K club, K diamond, Qs,Qh,Qc,Qd, Js,Jh,Jc,Jd, 10s,10h,10c,10d)
and to win you need to have a higher number (no more than 21) than the dealer & other players
you have a 16/52 (30% chance to have a value 10 card)

Also you can clearly see what the dealer & other players has in their hands:
one card face up and the other card face down

so for example:
if the dealer has a value 5 face up card and a card face down
we can safely assume that the face down card is a value 10
because there is a 30% chance of that card being a value 10 card, whilst there are only a 7% chance of being a value 2 or 3 or 4 ,etc. card

and we have a value 9 face up card and a value 10 face down card

we can easily win this game just by holding.
And when the dealer open his face down card, turns our it's a value 10
so his total value of cards is 15 ; mine is 19
the dealer must draw until the value of all his cards is above 17, with above 21 being a lose for the dealer and a win for me

so the dealer is going to hit (draw a card from the deck) and yet again there is a ~30% chance of it being a value 10 card

so after he draws from the deck turns out it is a 10 card
his total card value is now 25 ; mine is 19 .
So I win because the dealer's card is now above 21.

Can the market do that? no.
information asymmetry is the problem in the markets

whilst in blackjack, everyone who is in the table knows each other's face up cards and can potentially come up with a calculation in their heads to count the probabilities of the face down cards and act accordingly.

In other words,
in blackjack, you can safely assume that you & the dealer & other people have a 30% chance of getting a value 10 card.
(if there are no cards drawn in the first place)

whilst in the market, you can't even have that kind of privilege = a certainty of the uncertainty.
Let ur winners run & cut ur losses short.
  • Post #2
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  • Apr 17, 2021 8:03am Apr 17, 2021 8:03am
  •  HeyYou
  • Joined Apr 2015 | Status: Member | 1,754 Posts
oh yeah I'm not working right now and I spend countless hours playing poker. I treat it more like a sport, I almost never "gamble" unless I'm short stacked in tournaments.
 
 
  • Post #3
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  • Apr 17, 2021 8:34am Apr 17, 2021 8:34am
  •  HeyYou
  • Joined Apr 2015 | Status: Member | 1,754 Posts
Quoting HeyYou
Disliked
oh yeah I'm not working right now and I spend countless hours playing poker. I treat it more like a sport, I almost never "gamble" unless I'm short stacked in tournaments.
Ignored
by the way I play for fun...

occasionaly I go to cash tables where it's full of newbies who make any sort of mistakes
 
 
  • Post #4
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  • Apr 17, 2021 8:43am Apr 17, 2021 8:43am
  •  remonpilip
  • Joined Nov 2019 | Status: Member | 164 Posts
Quoting HeyYou
Disliked
{quote} by the way I play for fun... occasionaly I go to cash tables where it's full of newbies who make any sort of mistakes
Ignored
It's easier to take on the newbs isn't it?

All they do is gambling, and dont have a strategy, just hunches.
Let ur winners run & cut ur losses short.
 
1
  • Post #5
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  • Apr 17, 2021 2:51pm Apr 17, 2021 2:51pm
  •  Varkeer
  • | Joined May 2015 | Status: Member | 251 Posts
Get better setups with your trades.
Love to talk on Discord: DividendGamer#1324
 
 
  • Post #6
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  • Apr 17, 2021 3:47pm Apr 17, 2021 3:47pm
  •  ccrkk10
  • | Joined Aug 2020 | Status: Member | 46 Posts
The issue with blackjack is you may know there's a good chance that the dealer is gonna bust and you win, but you already have your bets on the table before knowing what the dealer has. If you're playing blackjack without counting cards, I believe you're waaaaay better off trading because at least for trading you have a fighting chance. For blackjack it's only a matter of time before the variance evens out and you lose everything.

Now if you're talking about counting cards (counting cards is what led me to trading), you tilt the odds in your favor a couple of percentage points giving you +EV. In my opinion making it as a card counter is waaaaaaaay easier than making it as a trader from a skill stand point. The skill of card counting is relatively easier to get and you can even calculate how much EV you'd make an hour based off your bankroll, bet spread, game rules, etc... The issue with card counting is the lifestyle. You always have to be on the move traveling to new casinos after getting thrown out of casinos (it's not illegal to count cards but casinos have the right to kick you off their property for being a winning player). Where as for trading no one is gonna stop you for being a winner and you have the luxury of working from your home every day.
 
 
  • Post #7
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  • Apr 17, 2021 10:42pm Apr 17, 2021 10:42pm
  •  remonpilip
  • Joined Nov 2019 | Status: Member | 164 Posts
Quoting ccrkk10
Disliked
The issue with blackjack is you may know there's a good chance that the dealer is gonna bust and you win, but you already have your bets on the table before knowing what the dealer has. If you're playing blackjack without counting cards, I believe you're waaaaay better off trading because at least for trading you have a fighting chance. For blackjack it's only a matter of time before the variance evens out and you lose everything. Now if you're talking about counting cards (counting cards is what led me to trading), you tilt the odds in your favor...
Ignored
Hi ccrkk10,
And what in the world makes you think that there is no "dealer" in the market?

Isn't broker the "dealer"?
Doesn't big banks hunts your stops?
Doesn't HFTs have the time (faster information) edge over you?
I can go on and on.

There are more "dealers" in the market than there are in blackjack (there are only 1 you are dealing with btw)

No. I believe you don't have a fighting chance in trading.
Because as I told you before, information asymmetry.
Unless you are doing insider trading.

And fyi, the "dealer" only has a 2% edge (if you are betting $100 he will get $2 because of your human nature)

And the "dealers" on the market has faster chart, faster tips, faster information, faster technology, faster brain, higher education than you.

Whilst in the blackjack table the dealer's information and your information are ALWAYS equally the same.

They do not know what is under your face down card, neither do you know what is under the dealer's face down card.

Now it's up to your ignorant brain to either process this or filter it.
I bet that 99.9% of you choose the latter. It's human nature.

Critical Thinking,
Raymond
And fyi, the "dealer" only has a 2% chance of winning against you.

You tell me, you can do trading
Let ur winners run & cut ur losses short.
1
 
  • Post #8
  • Quote
  • Apr 18, 2021 4:39am Apr 18, 2021 4:39am
  •  George0
  • | Commercial Member | Joined Feb 2021 | 5 Posts
Quoting HeyYou
Disliked
oh yeah I'm not working right now and I spend countless hours playing poker. I treat it more like a sport, I almost never "gamble" unless I'm short stacked in tournaments.
Ignored
Very Effective way in terms of trading.
 
 
  • Post #9
  • Quote
  • Apr 18, 2021 9:49am Apr 18, 2021 9:49am
  •  ccrkk10
  • | Joined Aug 2020 | Status: Member | 46 Posts
Quoting remonpilip
Disliked
{quote} Hi ccrkk10, And what in the world makes you think that there is no "dealer" in the market? Isn't broker the "dealer"? Doesn't big banks hunts your stops? Doesn't HFTs have the time (faster information) edge over you? I can go on and on. There are more "dealers" in the market than there are in blackjack (there are only 1 you are dealing with btw) No. I believe you don't have a fighting chance in trading. Because as I told you before, information asymmetry. Unless you are doing insider trading. And fyi, the "dealer" only has a 2% edge (if...
Ignored
Here's the issue with what you're suggesting though. With blackjack, you have a 0% chance to make money in the long run without counting, hole carding, etc. There won't be a single player in the world that would make money in the long run. I'm saying trading you at least have a chance. You can't tell me 0% of retail traders make money because that just simply isn't true. I believe you even had a thread before stating that all you need to do to be profitable is to follow the trend on a higher time frame and manage risk. So just the fact that you acknowledge there is a profitable way for the retail trader to trade means it's inherently better off than sitting down at the blackjack table to make money... now if you're talking about just having fun and getting enjoyment out of it that's another story lol
 
 
  • Post #10
  • Quote
  • Apr 19, 2021 2:32am Apr 19, 2021 2:32am
  •  remonpilip
  • Joined Nov 2019 | Status: Member | 164 Posts
Quoting ccrkk10
Disliked
{quote} Here's the issue with what you're suggesting though. With blackjack, you have a 0% chance to make money in the long run without counting, hole carding, etc. There won't be a single player in the world that would make money in the long run. I'm saying trading you at least have a chance. You can't tell me 0% of retail traders make money because that just simply isn't true. I believe you even had a thread before stating that all you need to do to be profitable is to follow the trend on a higher time frame and manage risk. So just the fact that...
Ignored
Hi ccrkk10,,
Sorry but now you are just being ignorant.
You say that trading has a chance in the long run, what % can give me?

Also you say blackjack isn't profitable in the long run, show me your proofs.

I say blackjack & trading isn't profitable in the long run, cuz I have scoure the internet for at least 1 consistently retail trader that makes a living out of trading but found none.

Fyi, even my trading buddy who has been trading for 7years he said he has found 0 consistent profitabke trader, the same goes to blackjack.

If you say that there are and that those consistent profitable retail traders are hiding, then you must assume that those consistent profitable blackjack card counters are also hiding.

My request is simple, find me a profitable trader that makes a living from trading as his main income with a proven track record (detailed statement)

Trading, like blackjack is meant to be a side income.

Regards,
R
Let ur winners run & cut ur losses short.
 
 
  • Post #11
  • Quote
  • Apr 19, 2021 5:30am Apr 19, 2021 5:30am
  •  Barrg1
  • | Joined Apr 2016 | Status: Member | 56 Posts
Trading, like any other type of investment, such as real estate, must be considered in the long term. And if you are not ready to accept the risks of trading, then you can always become an investor to receive passive income (you don't even need to go to a casino for this). Just buy a house with ocean view on building start stage and, in a few years, make a rental or resale profit.
It is the same with trade. You just need to choose the right asset for your investment.
 
 
  • Post #12
  • Quote
  • Apr 19, 2021 5:40am Apr 19, 2021 5:40am
  •  remonpilip
  • Joined Nov 2019 | Status: Member | 164 Posts
Quoting Barrg1
Disliked
Trading, like any other type of investment, such as real estate, must be considered in the long term. And if you are not ready to accept the risks of trading, then you can always become an investor to receive passive income (you don't even need to go to a casino for this). Just buy a house with ocean view on building start stage and, in a few years, make a rental or resale profit. It is the same with trade. You just need to choose the right asset for your investment.
Ignored
Hi Barrg1,

1 sentence for ya:
A best case-scenario-ed careful planning without any judgement with the worst case scenario does always sound good on paper.

Regards,
R
Let ur winners run & cut ur losses short.
 
 
  • Post #13
  • Quote
  • Apr 19, 2021 6:36am Apr 19, 2021 6:36am
  •  tommydoginti
  • Joined Oct 2020 | Status: Member | 3,254 Posts
So your standpoint is...?

by the way here is Forexfactory as a forum gathering forex traders. You may want to post the same thread in a gambling forum to see both sides of the discussion.
 
 
  • Post #14
  • Quote
  • Apr 19, 2021 7:06am Apr 19, 2021 7:06am
  •  techpro89
  • | Joined Aug 2012 | Status: Member | 13 Posts
trading is professional gambling. it is one of the most lucrative fields. you just gotta have respect for the require time and energy like we all do with law school or med school. work ethic, creativity, and teamwork. i've been trying to offer ccrkk10 a spot at my firm as that way he thinks is spot on. if anyone is able to contact him please relay the message. our systems are a perfect fit for the way he thinks.

John
 
 
  • Post #15
  • Quote
  • Apr 19, 2021 7:06am Apr 19, 2021 7:06am
  •  techpro89
  • | Joined Aug 2012 | Status: Member | 13 Posts
Quoting ccrkk10
Disliked
{quote} Here's the issue with what you're suggesting though. With blackjack, you have a 0% chance to make money in the long run without counting, hole carding, etc. There won't be a single player in the world that would make money in the long run. I'm saying trading you at least have a chance. You can't tell me 0% of retail traders make money because that just simply isn't true. I believe you even had a thread before stating that all you need to do to be profitable is to follow the trend on a higher time frame and manage risk. So just the fact that...
Ignored
check you inbox i've been trying to reach you for a while now.

John
 
 
  • Post #16
  • Quote
  • Edited 9:14am Apr 19, 2021 9:00am | Edited 9:14am
  •  ccrkk10
  • | Joined Aug 2020 | Status: Member | 46 Posts
Quoting remonpilip
Disliked
{quote} Hi ccrkk10,, Sorry but now you are just being ignorant. You say that trading has a chance in the long run, what % can give me? Also you say blackjack isn't profitable in the long run, show me your proofs. I say blackjack & trading isn't profitable in the long run, cuz I have scoure the internet for at least 1 consistently retail trader that makes a living out of trading but found none. Fyi, even my trading buddy who has been trading for 7years he said he has found 0 consistent profitabke trader, the same goes to blackjack. If you say that...
Ignored
Now you're the one being ignorant lmao. If you say I need to show proof that no blackjack player in the long run can make money when they have a 2% house edge against them. My proof is letting the math play out. By the way, the edge is much less than 2% depending on table rules. For example, in PA their gaming board makes all casinos adhere to certain table game rules that trim the house edge down to 0.33%, but make no mistake, EVERYONE will lose money in the long run without counting.

I have no idea what percent of retail traders make money long term, however I know it's more than 0% lol. I'm having trouble following your logic, and I don't mean to be disrespectful or come off as arrogant either. But if you admit trading can be a side income and you even posted saying "just follow the macro trend and manage risk to be profitable" then why can't trading be a full time income?? I think what you were getting at for the side income was that you wouldn't make enough % return in a year to have a real income but what if someone is trading a 6 or 7 figure account? And as for the trader that is consistently profitable. I'm well aware that the VAST majority of youtube stuff and education out there is BS. Now to my knowledge every trader in the Jack Schwager market wizards, both known and unknown books have been audited. Also I believe the youtubers Brian Watt, Trades by Matt, and Kevin Davey are all consistently profitable in trading.

And all those stats saying how retail traders lose money. Lets be honest, a lot of that is made up of new traders who never really heard of trading before and aren't educated in the slightest. Then they quit after they blow up their account in a month. What I would be curious to see if the stats of traders that succeed after spending a minimum 1 year trading every day and looking at charts every day. And honestly one year probably isn't enough time to make a fair judgement either
 
 
  • Post #17
  • Quote
  • Apr 20, 2021 6:35am Apr 20, 2021 6:35am
  •  Kyg
  • | Joined Oct 2017 | Status: Member | 48 Posts
Hello
Great offer for gambling, but unfortunately, I don't know any person who can boast of a stable income from blackjack and say "I earn for life in the casino being a player", but I know those who do it successfully being a trader.
Anyway, what do you suggest? give up trading in favor of gambling, then I urge you to show from personal experience that after 2 - 3 years of playing in a casino, you can have a stable income that will feed you.
Point of view is a common opinion, passed through the prism of experience
 
 
  • Post #18
  • Quote
  • Apr 21, 2021 5:21pm Apr 21, 2021 5:21pm
  •  Fxoday
  • | Commercial Member | Joined Sep 2019 | 147 Posts
Although trading is included speculative investment, I think different with gambling like in a casino, I don't like playing poker, blackjack, etc
Trading is a kind of investment but at a high-risk level, it's about managing the risk to make money, trader cant predict the market and should realize it.
 
 
  • Post #19
  • Quote
  • Edited 7:11pm Apr 21, 2021 6:56pm | Edited 7:11pm
  •  TimeTells
  • Joined Dec 2018 | Status: Member | 3,428 Posts
There is no real difference imho.

And I am not saying that disrespectfully to trading.


Probabilities & FX (gambling) equals windows of opportunity that we see arriving at certain times of the day in the market.

The human mind is geared towards chance. Way back from the old, old days of venturing outside your own village looking for better opportunities etc.


Gambling, by definition, is just playing probabilities (that are usually set in concrete).

Trading is also playing probabilities (which are variable though and which you yourself decide, and which makes FX trading more worth my own time, imo).

‘Gambling’ sounds so second class though.


In FX price can only go up or down (once any sideways stall ends).

In blackjack when I was flying over to Hobart in the late 70’s (Oz’s only legal casino back then) the number of decks in a shoe was three if I remember. Now it’s between 5 and 8 depending on the house.

While the local casino blackjack “table rules” would be the most important aspect I reckon, ie what cards you can split and how often & how many doubles you can make etc.


In FX I do believe we are playing against a “house” of some sorts which in all likelihood is the retail Liquidity Providers (the ones the brokers use & NOT the brokers themselves - that’s a different game again).

I don’t see any of the reported $5 trillion per day hitting my screens, and probably only when we see around a quick 50 pip move (that “doesn’t retrace immediately”) is when some big directional money finally arrives from the upper echelons of the big boys setting a ‘new’ floor level for the moment.


FX is just a daily repeating “revolving door” as I see it, within ranges, every day on my screens.

How you engage its “chance” will (probably) determine profitability from the probabilities.
 
3
  • Post #20
  • Quote
  • Apr 22, 2021 12:13am Apr 22, 2021 12:13am
  •  viptrading
  • Joined Sep 2018 | Status: Member | 456 Posts
Quoting remonpilip
Disliked
I say Gambling, blackjack in particular. Why? Well isn't it obvious? In Trading/Investing world you are by yourself against Billions / Millions of people and possibly Insider Traders with distinct Information Asymmetry depending on your market. whilst in Gambling (blackjack in particular) you are against the house and some other people. And on some rare occasion you are against cheaters. Whilst on trading world, insider information are circulated daily -be that a good tip or a fake tip- There is no certainty in the market, because different people...
Ignored
If you believe this then why are you posting on a trading forum...why not go to a gambling forum and post this there and get better at playing blackjack?....
 
 
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