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  • #461
  • Dec 18, 2020 3:02am Dec 18, 2020 3:02am
Here's an inverted view of the usual psychological price chart. Sometimes it's good to switch it up and check your thinking. Enjoy.

Peter

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Real Trading is not gambling.
  • #462
  • Dec 18, 2020 3:35am Dec 18, 2020 3:35am
Quoting PeterCaleb
Here's an inverted view of the usual psychological price chart. Sometimes it's good to switch it up and check your thinking. Enjoy. Peter {image}
Most won’t pickup on your chart the ‘inverted’ visual psychological game played out by big brother.
I traded an identical setup on a different pair different timeframe and less than an hour ago.
George was absolutely right in describing the fractional nature of the data, presented to us as coloured blocks.
Similar to the pea and 3 cups. Oldest scam in the book, as are the coloured blocks on a chart.
The MA adds nothing to the real power behind the displayed data.
But then you already know that!

M.
  • #463
  • Dec 18, 2020 4:05am Dec 18, 2020 4:05am
Someone sent me a pm about leverage. Although I would usually step aside from such subjects to do with personal money management and profits, it might be easy enough to give you an example of how it was explained to me years ago.

Imagine you have a bank card (these days we call it a visa debit card) and you can use a maximum of what you have in your account. Then one day the bank announces it is going to provide its customers with a card that connects your accounts to a scenario where you can use your own money + the bank's money, that is allocated according to your credit assessment. It turns out though that this assessment is not determined by 'capability to repay any debt', but instead they use a capacity +/- "X"% methodology. Of course these days re: trading, we know it as "Margin Stop Out % Level". Some brokers will allow you to lose all the money in your trading account + more. Others will preset the limits within their system so none of their clients can lose more than what they have in their account. While you DO have money in your account they basically give you a credit card style of use for your trading financials. But most people are not that great with credit and tend to overextend themselves when their base emotions get in the way. And in walks the credit card mentality. Trading is about compounding interest and being prepared to offer a little for more in return. But leverage is similar to trading with a credit card and most people have never run a successful business or bank, so they know nothing about debt and liability, incomings and outgoings and definitely don't know what the market's going to do next. In walks the gambler. Leveraged wins are good but leveraged losses amplify within a SITUATION and your broker will NOT tell you that, ever. If you want to test it, use a practice account of say $1000 with 1:500 leverage and start placing orders. And watch your "fake money" disappear. While you "offer" only a small "security deposit" known as margin to play, the fluctuations your account will need to survive can be devastating. One must understand, trading time and money for an outcome you do not control comes with a price. Why make that price more difficult to recover and STILL make a healthy consistent profit?

Yes I updated bits of that, but the main part of it is still very relevant today as it was years ago when I was learning about these markets. Of course high leverage or, low, is up to you, but the ones who survive and thrive in trading are not the ones who use high leverage. Why not? "The past is your friend but the future is its cousin. No matter how much you think you know, the future is not yet written. " Prepare for the best and the worst. Be smart and outlive the short term disasters.

Peter
Real Trading is not gambling.
  • #464
  • Dec 18, 2020 4:06am Dec 18, 2020 4:06am
Quoting moodybot
{quote}
Most won’t pickup on your chart the ‘inverted’ visual psychological game played out by big brother. I traded an identical setup on a different pair different timeframe and less than an hour ago.

George was absolutely right in describing the fractional nature of the data, presented to us as coloured blocks.

Similar to the pea and 3 cups.

Oldest scam in the book, as are the coloured blocks on a chart. The MA adds nothing to the real power behind the displayed data. But then you already know that! M.




Nice work M

Now we’re getting down to the guts of what George was showing everybody.

From his own observations. Over many years and thousands of hours at it.


We can call price action - onwards to many things

Supply & Demand, like what is suggested.

Or Support & Resistance.


Though when looking at it in the way of, your wonderful phrase ,

“Similar to the pea and 3 cups”

Things started to come together a bit more, for me anyway.
(Thx George and thx FractalFrk)


And now it is - just how it plays out

either S&D or S&R

or the 3 pea & shell game. (luv it)


Thus markets are fractal.

Thus markets move in waves.


See it, trade it (and don’t ever get too cocky - with this market)

Good fortunes to all.

---------------

oh yes, and thanks also to Edward De Bono

for his landmark work (way back) in the 1960’s

https://www.opencolleges.edu.au/info...eral-thinking/
  • #465
  • Dec 18, 2020 4:33am Dec 18, 2020 4:33am
I said it partly "tongue in cheek" AND actually to get people to take a closer look. Just as a small, intricate reminder here, George could have said ANYTHING, BUT, if a single individual person, wants to learn how to trade the financial markets properly, then they will find out the simple truth for themselves. This site has excess spillover of all kinds of people. It's a painful reminder to me, anyway, just HOW MANY people do not have an accurate worldview that IS prescribed through the financial markets. (You don't need a story or conspiracy ingredient involved to see the simple plain evidence). People look at a digitized price chart and make a very long list of assumptions and then their premise creates their activities. George simply spent enough time looking at the "layers". If someone wishes to build a career, then that is a must. I'm glad people can recognize on the charts what George calls it. The "scam" is building perception as viewable ONLY from the left of your chart view. If you want to build an indicator that really works, you need it to work from the right hand side only. Similar to your S&D or S&R level style indicators but starting from the right of your chart. I have one but I cannot "give it to you" because it's in my head. But if someone was to build one then that is the ONLY way to do so.

As to my chart and lateral thinking. It's just a chart. The black MA cooks my pancakes for me. And I take profits off the table when they're done. That's all. Hehehe. Just for information sake, lateral thinking as the label goes, is new but the concept, action and activity is ancient. No surprises there.

Cheers

Peter
Real Trading is not gambling.
  • #466
  • Dec 18, 2020 4:50am Dec 18, 2020 4:50am
Thanks Pete ( Timetells)

Recently I spoke to Dave.. he said he often read quotes from old time traders who looked at a naked chart and they said when you know, you know.
Thousands upon thousands of hours... and they were right.
Its there on every chart, pair, timeframe.
Humans are wired to over analyse and complicate matters... the market knows this and is tailored to feed off of our emotions.
Once we accept the sole purpose of the chart is to confuse traders into making poor decisions then we can move ahead.

I’ll ask a question.... chicken and egg style.... what came first on the first day when our markets were available to trade ... instant candles/ data on our charts attracting us to trade and place stops or no data/candles and money had to be placed into the market to generate data!
  • #467
  • Dec 18, 2020 5:11am Dec 18, 2020 5:11am
Quoting moodybot
Thanks Pete ( Timetells) Recently I spoke to Dave.. he said he often read quotes from old time traders who looked at a naked chart and they said when you know, you know. Thousands upon thousands of hours... and they were right. Its there on every chart, pair, timeframe. Humans are wired to over analyse and complicate matters... the market knows this and is tailored to feed off of our emotions. Once we accept the sole purpose of the chart is to confuse traders into making poor decisions then we can move ahead. I’ll ask a question.... chicken and...


Humans today are NOT the same as they used be. However, on that note, there is still one area that remains predominantly evergreen - the instinct of survival. And counter to most people's understanding, this is where the whole problem with "accepting the risk" come in when beginning any enterprise that involves risk (And EVEN invites it!). In lay terms, fight or flight..... but with currency of the present day realm. Bad thinking processes and bad information make for a bad day. As to your dinner question, a thought has a monetary value. Always has and will. The "markets" are as old as time. Through human history they've existed. Now we just try and do it more sadistically with machines and added stress. In the beginning, (if you want to imagine it this way), you couldn't trade with yourself, people would think you crazy.... haggling with yourself over best price. Hehehehehe. So you needed someone to "play with". And it turned out, some were more clever than others. And so began the price line. And today we have all kinds.

For anything you need a synergy. So someone had to want to task more efficiency. The want needed to be there. So candles, no candles, data, no data. It's all the same. As for what attracted us to trade? Me ! Me ! Me! Mine! I want "Gimme!" mentality. Sorry if you were making a joke. I took it as a real Q to answer.

Peter
Real Trading is not gambling.
  • #468
  • Dec 18, 2020 4:29pm Dec 18, 2020 4:29pm
Back to George, and his views from his thread

for a quick look at the week on GBPJPY

not how I do it - but it's there - cheers George

(edit: sorry, my ma's not george's - forgot to delete them - they're not part of george's story)
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  • #469
  • Dec 18, 2020 4:51pm Dec 18, 2020 4:51pm
Quoting PeterCaleb
{quote} Humans today are NOT the same as they used be. However, on that note, there is still one area that remains predominantly evergreen - the instinct of survival. And counter to most people's understanding, this is where the whole problem with "accepting the risk" come in when beginning any enterprise that involves risk (And EVEN invites it!). In lay terms, fight or flight..... but with currency of the present day realm. Bad thinking processes and bad information make for a bad day. As to your dinner question, a thought has a monetary value....

Wasn't a joke but interesting reply.
Cheers...
  • #470
  • Dec 18, 2020 5:51pm Dec 18, 2020 5:51pm
Quoting TimeTells
Back to George, and his views from his thread for a quick look at the week on GBPJPY not how I do it - but it's there - cheers George (edit: sorry, my ma's not george's - forgot to delete them - they're not part of george's story) {image}
that have a name: 3d by RP
Uncertainty of the market must be embraced and accepted.
  • #471
  • Dec 20, 2020 12:38am Dec 20, 2020 12:38am
Quoting PeterCaleb
Here's an inverted view of the usual psychological price chart. Sometimes it's good to switch it up and check your thinking. Enjoy. Peter {image}
To make things more interesting ....

Let's consider this, the following chart is in fact the normal chart ... right side up right way round. BUT, I changed the blue (bullish) and red (bearish) candles around. So, in fact, your points of reference are now situated so you actually are being shown and told BY the "....." (fill in the blank of what you call your market and how you perceive it and understand it). Apart from having (as I have mentioned before) an indicator from right to left, for those still balancing their mind with how to see the market you trade, this could do I suppose as a rudimentary option. You would also probably need a "trigger" to feed you insight of where things are up to.
Real Trading is not gambling.
  • #472
  • Dec 20, 2020 12:43am Dec 20, 2020 12:43am
Quoting PeterCaleb
{quote} To make things more interesting .... Let's consider this, the following chart is in fact the normal chart ... right side up right way round. BUT, I changed the blue (bullish) and red (bearish) candles around. So, in fact, your points of reference are now situated so you actually are being shown and told BY the "....." (fill in the blank of what you call your market and how you perceive it and understand it). Apart from having (as I have mentioned before) an indicator from right to left, for those still balancing their mind with how to see...
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
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Real Trading is not gambling.
  • #473
  • Dec 20, 2020 1:38am Dec 20, 2020 1:38am
For anyone reading this, don't just "believe me" whenever I say something or talk about something. To trade ANY market is a DOING activity. And I know this silly virus stuff isn't helping people considering it instills fear and ignorance. So even if you feel this way, it's better to check it out for yourself. Do your own research. Superimpose it over what George has shown you and talked about. THE mistake to make though, is to assume either I am always right or that GEORGE is always right. We are just a person. We make mistakes. If you enjoy the process as much as or MORE than the earnings, then you can go a long way in your trading career.

Someone asked about psychology and how it has played a role in my own trading.

The most honest response to this is ... you keep learning. The markets WILL change again, you can bet on it. The writing's on the wall for all to see, as I look round the world as of today. So you can believe what you want. If you choose to believe that 95% of traders lose, then c'est la vie. Personally, the total number of people I have met in my life who could quantify the real truth in that idea I can count on one hand with a thumb to spare. It's simply a glorified, unsubstantiated factoid. Propaganda if you will call it something, to amuse, scare and bewilder people. The actual context is so inaccurate that it's laughable. To ME anyway. And I know that people keep talking about it and bringing it up. But one thing modern people haven't worked out - the internet doesn't know everything.

So IF you want to trade properly, and I am talking about it as something you genuinely enjoy doing, not ONLY for a pay cheque, then you need to see just how ridiculous those kinds of things are. Again, thinking for yourself. See the absurdity in a 'survey idea' like that. It's truly fascinating when I look around on this site just how many trading/technical/real life faux pas exist that continue to pop up. This one I have mentioned is a particularly ravenous one and I would imagine it has haunted many a good/great aspiring trader.

The way I personally learned to deal with the "inconvenience" of bumping into these things was to learn how to be objective - to remain neutral to one's preferences AND always take extensive notes on each side of the "argument". This way you can be impartial when needed AND be at the ready to take serious action when needed. Most people are either playing attack or defense so they weigh themselves down with silly superficial stuff that will not help. Trading is the same. It's not the indicator's fault you're stupid, or lazy, or greedy or fearful or apprehensive or obsessive compulsive or nervous or scared or aggressive and it's not your fault of the things to which you are ignorant. However, once you ARE aware of them, then you can do something about it.

Eg - Depending on the market you are involved in will depend on its motives. Eg. - A rolling Index eg - S&P 500 is a constituent market. Its job is to rollover capital to encourage even more capital to embrace its mission statement. And the Forex markets are there to act as a wheelhouse for those who participate. You don't need a degree or a conspiracy view to see what happens. But being subjective (a single point of view) in these markets is ludicrous. In this approach, just as you have "worked out" what is going on, the game changes AGAIN. However certain pieces do not. So that might give you some clues as to WHY those factoids littering people's minds are such garbage. If you believe that a generality dictates YOUR future and destiny, then give up trading now and find another hobby. You'll save yourself a heart attack and losing all your spare money only to become one of those people who say "See, that factoid is true." I call that 'self-fulfilling prophecy' not the truth.

It's worth thinking about.

Peter
Real Trading is not gambling.
  • #474
  • Edited 2:58am Dec 20, 2020 2:43am | Edited 2:58am
Quoting Jimmyf
Thanks, will see how I go. There are a few TMA indicators on Tradingview but kind of like the TMATrue version. Thanks, Anthony
Hello Anthony. Try this indicator in tradingview.com: In the search type "Triangular Moving Average (TMA) bands" and select it from "Deveatt", but do not forget to change the settings in "Inputs" for example:
TMA Number Of Bars Back 480
ATR Number Of Bars Back 1440
ATR Multiplier 10 or 14
You can add another one of the same and play with ATR Multiplier.

Good fortunes
Genci
  • #475
  • Dec 20, 2020 8:46pm Dec 20, 2020 8:46pm
People do indeed tend to overthink and overcomplicate things in trading. I know that here, people have accused me of doing this, however, what they do not appreciate is that in the BIIIG wide world of trading, there ARE actually specific elements that are concrete repeaters. The type of ingredients that go into a strategy's makeup that set the tone between people who have true real experience vs people who are too afraid to admit they've been conned or just led (perhaps yet again) by someone or something. Now if you already know all about all this then this is not for you. Although you may find something said to be useful, despite the presumption that you "know" all you need to know.

A simple example of this can be seen in the following pic .....

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Be it simple, and probably not new to some people on first viewing, the deliberate price level placing of these zones is not REALLY the important thing. All I did was put the zones at the very right extreme of the viewable chart space, right? So if it's not the visual or physical setup that's important then what is?

No I'm not talking in riddles. It's a game. A game of hide and seek. At first you could use an indicator to mark up the left to right zones. Sure. And you could just draw a horizontal line to mark previous highs and lows, sure. Again from right to left. But other than the ritual of doing this, what are you learning? Are you just following orders and instructions? Going through the motions of the routine? What are you thinking about when you do this?

There are so many people (in a very concentrated area) on this site who have not experienced several different situations to know how to avoid them, or, how to see them coming. Through my own years of trading, I have witnessed many things. And so many can be avoided or even worked, to generate not just profits, but a much more rigorous way of thinking. In the old days, we didn't have everything you have today, so we did it the simple way - in our heads and with a pencil and paper. The disastrous assumption made by most today is that MORE is better. That a computer AT ALL, is better.

What Am I driving at here?

In the pic above, the challenge is this - Could YOU, the individual trader, consistently trade that market with nothing more than what you see on that chart AND a few other basic tools. Eg - A moving average (your choice of settings), drawing tools (line, rectangle, circle and triangle), your internet connection and you?

If all these fancy indicators etc are so great, then why aren't more people off living their lives, instead of coming back to a site like this?

For anyone reading this, there comes that time when you need to realize that indicators are just an expression of you and your thinking. That action is less probable because you like shiny things instead of the event taking place on your chart.

Below is something that every trader should memorize completely. I know I know "we all know that already Peter" but DO YOU? TRULY? You have internal and external indications in trading. Something pre-packaged you can place on your chart is internal. Despite people's "fascinations" with Fibs, waves and the TMATrue, they are ONLY what they are. Something that derives its data content and CONTEXT from the outside world is external BUT becomes internal once it is heavily relied upon by the end user. See what I am saying here? So "Naked Chart trading" and "Indicator based trading" be it "mechanical style" or not, the basic premise that price does nothing repeatedly, is a DANGEROUS assumption. I know that people learning still, have been drawn or magnetized to George, his approach and way of describing things, however, that is simply a "style" of thinking. It's the same with the use of indicators. If you were to use the below pic as a central reference of YOUR thinking, then you would never EVER again need another person to "tell you" because you understand something that is real, tangible and true 100% of the time.

Attached Image

I just wanted to share those points with people. I'm not at all saying George was saying things that are true/false or good/bad. I am talking about you as a trader. George worked out what works for HIS thinking. Now it's your turn.

Hope that helps

Peter
Real Trading is not gambling.
  • #476
  • Dec 21, 2020 11:08am Dec 21, 2020 11:08am
Quoting deanyakobs
George Trading is MINDSET, he calls it DEEP UNDERSTANDING OF PRICE ACTION. I{image}
This image is a complete understanding of MM targets as George himself taught us. I did my homeworks and marked every highs and lows as well. It is amazing how the market moves taking out targets one by one.

But when in a live market trading on foresight. Sometimes i still panicking about which and when the targets that will be taken out first? Could you give me some lights to that.
I appreciate it, thankyou good Sir
  • #477
  • Dec 21, 2020 5:58pm Dec 21, 2020 5:58pm
Gearzero, I know that you are directing that post at deanyakobs but I would like to say something here because you're not the first person to ask this. When hindsight is your teacher and guide, it is a relaxed atmosphere for you because there is no fear of loss or betrayal or conflict or being "wrong". You need to understand that George is someone who internalized that mindset. That story. And so then, he could address the more personal issues of which trades to jump on. If you asked him, I'm sure he would say that he does not trade "everything" that comes along. Why? The story? No. It just provides the "backdrop" for helping him understand what's potentially going on. What guides him is the combination of the very basic of ingredients in trading - short term direction and big picture direction (momentum), trade setup (eg reversal etc) and all the other parameters that he calls 'price filters' that are things he found to be useful in improving his odds of successfully profiting from his trade style. They are the facts.

A trader, that is a REAL trader, must understand that no matter how you cover over these facts, they are still there. So, when you are watching a live market, doubt and uncertainty can creep in. Why? The basic answer - you don't understand yourself and what you are doing. Proper research will show you how you think and proper basic historical testing will show how your emotions play a part in trading. Fear, greed and all the "in-between" feelings and emotions that exist can walk in "unannounced". If you don't "believe" in what you are doing, then you will fail. PERIOD. People so easily forget it's a numbers game. Eg - X number of correct selections out of 10 or 100 setups etc. And it's about HOW the market likes to move around. Each day a small early loss can be cancelled out by added trade setups later in the day to produce a profitable day. Combine this with the truthful awareness that you ARE (in some form) gambling because you don't KNOW, with 100% certainty, what will be the outcome. So this is where having an understanding of what type of setup you are wanting to trade can help. Is it a "wet or dry" setup? Meaning - does it either turn up and you trade it and it works, or it doesn't turn up so you lose nothing? Or, is it a true/false setup? You probably already know these - sometimes it works and sometimes it does not work in your favor. The facts of all trading rests with these elements. It does not matter if you auto trade (EA) or mechanical trade or manual (discretionary) trade your market of choice.

Another element that may play a part in your problem, is you are "over spending" on your trades. Trying to make too much happen too fast that is too much $$$ for your account to handle. This could be lot size or leverage or over-leveraged positioning.

The lack of real life practice seems to destroy a person's confidence. If you are completely honest and you know you don't have much proper experience, a good way to help with that is to "replay" the market. Either in mt4/5 strategy tester, or as failinforex spoke of in post 448 re: using a way to record that playback in the tester and then replay it over and over and over. Mental "memory" is the act of hindsight being remembered, nothing more.

Something I have spoken of before - people being too reliant on indicators. They can be VERY helpful for general study and a specific research study that you may feel useful. But are a hindrance when actually trading. That final moment when you "pull the trigger" "push the button" etc, is instinct. Second nature, whatever you choose to call it. Not thinking. At this point, all your "thinking, research, planning, calculating and study" should be done. If it's not then you're not ready.

I apologize for the length of writing here, but I believe in giving proper answers to questions that need proper attention.

I hope this at least "adds" to this topic for anyone who is thinking about the same things.

Peter
Real Trading is not gambling.
  • #478
  • Dec 21, 2020 6:22pm Dec 21, 2020 6:22pm
Quoting PeterCaleb
Gearzero, I know that you are directing that post at deanyakobs but I would like to say something here because you're not the first person to ask this. When hindsight is your teacher and guide, it is a relaxed atmosphere for you because there is no fear of loss or betrayal or conflict or being "wrong". You need to understand that George is someone who internalized that mindset. That story. And so then, he could address the more personal issues of which trades to jump on. If you asked him, I'm sure he would say that he does not trade "everything"...
  • #479
  • Dec 21, 2020 6:23pm Dec 21, 2020 6:23pm
Quoting Profitgrowth
{quote}
Hihihihihihihihehehehehe
Real Trading is not gambling.
  • #480
  • Dec 21, 2020 6:53pm Dec 21, 2020 6:53pm
While some prefer to write long story with no substance, needless to say -NO VALUE.

It is better to focus on the chart to look out for opportunity or look at the chart and learn by jumping in.

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