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  • #641
  • Dec 4, 2020 4:38pm Dec 4, 2020 4:38pm
Quoting OutThere
{quote} Well, that's so negative. Why would I lose $240? Maybe I will make $240. Maybe more. Because I have the freedom to take advantage of a setup that requires me to risk more than 4% of the account. Okay, I do admit that the 5ers scheme makes a more careful trader out of a participant. I also acknowledge that a trader who challenges this deal might have had quite a bit of experience trading (Unless daddy gave them their money). I recognize that being successful under such restrictions requires amazing discipline. And on and on. But to say you...
"Well, that's so negative. Why would I lose $240? Maybe I will make $240."

Of course -- and you might make a lot more. What I said was "worst case scenario".

Suppose I trade a specific strategy -- the strategy has no clue whether I'm trading my own account or @the5ers account. It's going to perform exactly the same in both accounts. If it's going to win in my account it will win in @the5ers account. If it is going to lose in my account it will lose in the @the5ers account. What a prop trading company allows me is to trade a larger account using a more conservative strategy -- and I think that is a better recipe for success. I can make more money growing a 100K account 12% per year than I can growing a 1K account 288% per year. Not only can I make more money, it is less stressful and time consuming. But that comes with a price, right? You have to stay within the rules. If you can't stay within the rules then the whole thing breaks down. That's the trade-off.

The fact you bring politics into this suggests you have racism on the brain -- so I know where this is headed. I'm done...
  • #642
  • Dec 4, 2020 5:22pm Dec 4, 2020 5:22pm
Quoting OutThere
...Now don't make me quote Matrix to come up with a better example.
@OutThere -- did you remember to choose the red pill?
  • #643
  • Dec 4, 2020 5:33pm Dec 4, 2020 5:33pm
Quoting robots4me
{quote} @OutThere -- did you remember to choose the red pill?
Lol.
I own the red pill factory.

But that could be just a Matrix construct designed by Mouse.
  • #644
  • Dec 4, 2020 6:32pm Dec 4, 2020 6:32pm
Just a recap: I think 5ers is a great company with caring and knowledgeable staff and I do recommend them to those that are willing to take a chance.

The only issue I have is that it's a bit jazzed up with the 6K deposit claim. It's there but "U can't touch this" applies. You can only touch your own part.
So, plan accordingly.
After passing the evaluation, things start to level off as far as I can surmise.
Cheers to those who pass.
  • #645
  • Edited Dec 5, 2020 1:06am Dec 4, 2020 11:19pm | Edited Dec 5, 2020 1:06am
Quoting OutThere
Just a recap: I think 5ers is a great company with caring and knowledgeable staff and I do recommend them to those that are willing to take a chance. The only issue I have is that it's a bit jazzed up with the 6K deposit claim. It's there but "U can't touch this" applies. You can only touch your own part. So, plan accordingly. After passing the evaluation, things start to level off as far as I can surmise. Cheers to those who pass.
@OutThere -- I appreciate your softened tone, but either you don't get it or I don't get your point.

You are not happy that "U can't touch this" -- meaning, you can't do whatever you want with the 6K. But it's their 6K. Yes -- there are strings attached, but it's a real account. Are you thinking that you pay them a $275 USD registration fee and they give you $6K to do with as you wish? That's what it sounds like you are expecting. Are you thinking there shouldn't be any strings attached?

If so, if I give you $275 USD will you open a forex account for me with $6K of your money? Where do I sign up? I won't lose it all -- "trust me"...
  • #646
  • Dec 5, 2020 12:31am Dec 5, 2020 12:31am
Quoting robots4me
{quote} @OutThere -- I appreciate your softened tone, but either you don't get it or I don't get your point. You are not happy that "U can't touch this" -- meaning, you can't do whatever you want with the 6K. But it's their 6K -- there are strings attached. Are you thinking that you pay them a $275 USD registration fee and they give you $6K to do with as you wish? That's what it sounds like you are expecting. If so, if I give you $275 USD will you open a forex account for me with $6K of your money? Where do I sign up? I won't lose it all -- "trust...
Yeah, on the very front....
For the cheapest,
Pay 275 for 250.

But their promise after you get the job done:
1st 250
2nd 1000
3rd 2000
4th 4000
5th 8000
6th 16000
7th 32000
8th 51200

For the sake of clarity....
250+skill+hardwork=51200

We able to trade 51200 account in faster way...

Not too good to be true but still a good thing to expect
  • #647
  • Dec 5, 2020 1:44am Dec 5, 2020 1:44am
Quoting robots4me
{quote} @OutThere -- I appreciate your softened tone, but either you don't get it or I don't get your point. You are not happy that "U can't touch this" -- meaning, you can't do whatever you want with the 6K. But it's their 6K. Yes -- there are strings attached, but it's a real account. Are you thinking that you pay them a $275 USD registration fee and they give you $6K to do with as you wish? That's what it sounds like you are expecting. Are you thinking there shouldn't be any strings attached? If so, if I give you $275 USD will you open a forex...
Alright, there is no 6K. There is nothing. There is nothing past $250.
It might as well be 600K. What difference does it make?

Tell me, if there is a 6k, at what point the dd in my account will trigger an equity stop loss? At 5750.
Now if there is 600K in the account, at what point the dd in my account will trigger an equity stop loss? At 599,750.
If there is $1,000.000 in the account, at what point the dd in my account will trigger an equity stop loss? At 999,750.

As you see, no matter how much money is put in the account, I can risk losing only $250.

The only way I can risk more than $250 is if I make money and add that to the $250.
Whatever number there is in the account aside from the $250 is an illusion.
If I can risk only $250, that means my account equity SL is 100%.

If I had nothing in the account other than $250 and I let my losers run, my account equity SL is by default -$250 which is 100%.


if you still don't get it, let's just agree to disagree.
  • #648
  • Edited 2:32am Dec 5, 2020 1:55am | Edited 2:32am
If so, if I give you $275 USD will you open a forex account for me with $6K of your money? Where do I sign up? I won't lose it all -- "trust me"...

I don't want to get revoked for soliciting funds but it is doable. This is just for the sake of discussion.
You send me $275 and I add $5725. I'll open an account and I'll send you all the account credentials. I'll run an equity stop EA on my terminal and set it for $5750. There will be a $25 buffer in case of slippage. You go and make money in it and when the account hits 6.25% profit, we will close all trades and I'll send you 50% of the profit which will be $187.50.
(BTW, I remember the profit target being 6% or $360 but now it is $375.)

Deal?
  • #649
  • Dec 5, 2020 2:31am Dec 5, 2020 2:31am
Quoting OutThere
If so, if I give you $275 USD will you open a forex account for me with $6K of your money? Where do I sign up? I won't lose it all -- "trust me"... I don't want to get revoked for soliciting funds but it is doable. This is just for the sake of discussion. You send me $275 and I add $5725. I'll open an account and I'll send you all the account credentials. I'll run an equity stop EA on my terminal and set it for $5750. There will be a $25 buffer in case of slippage. You go and make money in it and when the account hits 6.25% profit, you send me 50%...
Just for sake of continuing the discussion,
don't forget to mention the part when you make the goal, you get 4 times more capital 40K.
And that next part when you are on a 40K account you can risk $1600 from the fund's capital, or if you make the target again you will have an 80K account.
We are Forex traders - Come trade with us
  • #650
  • Edited 2:46am Dec 5, 2020 2:35am | Edited 2:46am
Quoting The5ersTF
{quote} Just for sake of continuing the discussion, don't forget to mention the part when you make the goal, you get 4 times more capital 40K. And that next part when you are on a 40K account you can risk $1600 of the fund, or if you make the target again you will have an 80K account.
Ok but Robots4me just asked for the 6K evaluation account in his request and I answered him accordingly.

In post #644 I wrote: After passing the evaluation, things start to level off as far as I can surmise.

However, that is after weeks or months of scrutinizing the account through various situations. If the requirement to become proven has been met, in way, you have your dream trader who has made 144% in 6 month or less. What is an institutional trader expected to make in a year? 15% is a really respectable amount of earnings among the big funds and that gets you millions. How much did the traders in the wizard book make to get there?

It is actually 150%. (I had calculated 144% based on $360) Starting with $250 and adding 375 to it is growing the account by 150% in 6 months. That is 25% a month.
  • #651
  • Edited 3:04am Dec 5, 2020 2:43am | Edited 3:04am
Quoting OutThere
If so, if I give you $275 USD will you open a forex account for me with $6K of your money? Where do I sign up? I won't lose it all -- "trust me"... I don't want to get revoked for soliciting funds but it is doable. This is just for the sake of discussion. You send me $275 and I add $5725. I'll open an account and I'll send you all the account credentials. I'll run an equity stop EA on my terminal and set it for $5750. There will be a $25 buffer in case of slippage. You go and make money in it and when the account hits 6% profit, you send me 50%...
Look it -- you're over thinking it. Two accounts -- one funded with 6K and one funded with $275. I'm trading both with the same strategy. The same strategy. In the worst case my strategy goes on a losing streak and drops $240. Both accounts drop $240. Both accounts. Does it make a difference to my bank account? No -- of course not. But what if it's not a worst case scenario and my strategy continues to trade at a 6% clip each month. Which account will do better?

When I give them $275 USD they allow me to lose, at most, $240 USD. In other words, they allow me to lose up to $240 of the $275 I give them. Do you really expect them to allow you to lose all 6K? Come on -- that's not real. So, in the worst case, they make $35 and I lose the $240 that I would have lost anyways, on my own, trading my own account. In effect, I am paying them an extra $35 for the privilege of trading a 6K account and the opportunity that affords me. If I follow the rules, I can earn much more from that 6K account -- trading conservatively -- than I can from my $275 account trading aggressively.

@OutThere -- you're a smart fellow. Why is that so hard to see?
  • #652
  • Dec 5, 2020 3:07am Dec 5, 2020 3:07am
Quoting robots4me
{quote} Look it -- you're over thinking it. Two accounts -- one funded with 6K and one funded with $275. I'm trading both with the same strategy. The same strategy. In the worst case my strategy goes on a losing streak and drops $240. Does it make a difference to my bank account? No -- of course not. But what if it's not a worst case scenario and my strategy continues to trade at a 6% clip each month. Which account will do better? When I give them $275 USD they allow me to lose, at most, $240 USD. In other words, they allow me to lose up to $240...
You just admitted that 2 accounts, one funded with 6K and one funded with $275 produce the same result. Boom, my point too. The $5750 doesn't matter. It is not even there. It's locked up in the top cupboard and you can't reach it. Why would something that is not reachable to you is advertised as something that has been facilitated to you?

Also, even though you say you trade a $275 account just like a 6K account, let me remind you of your statement earlier:

Until recently my trading has mostly focused on maximizing profit -- but prop trading is different -- the focus is on managing money and risk. And I like that -- but it's a different way of trading for some of us and requires a different approach. And the more I think about it the more it occurs to me this is a better approach to trading -

You just recently adapted your trading to trading with small lots and small profits. You are still learning I gather. You are hoping that you can trade a 6K account like $275 account.

Anyways, you go be happy with the 'title of $5725 added to your $275. If someone adds the title Dr. in front of your name, it doesn't mean you are a doctor. It just means your ego has been pumped to think you are a doctor. If that is what does it for you, then fine. You are thinking correctly according to your self image then.

Like I said, let's agree to disagree.
  • #653
  • Dec 5, 2020 3:10am Dec 5, 2020 3:10am
Quoting robots4me
{quote} Look it -- you're over thinking it. Two accounts -- one funded with 6K and one funded with $275. I'm trading both with the same strategy. The same strategy. In the worst case my strategy goes on a losing streak and drops $240. Does it make a difference to my bank account? No -- of course not. But what if it's not a worst case scenario and my strategy continues to trade at a 6% clip each month. Which account will do better? When I give them $275 USD they allow me to lose, at most, $240 USD. In other words, they allow me to lose up to $240...
as i would see it, unbiased.

strictly looking,
for the 6k funded acct you can "lose" 275$ or -4%+the buffer
so, to make it equal that max loss...
technically your own personal 275$ acct would be also allow to lose 275$ (100%) and thus allow you 25% more of the loss limit of the 4% given by the funded acct.
leverage would be able to use to max too...
so your 6% a clip each month strategy thus could be literally traded full to 25x the max allowed 4% dd, meaning, again literally, that your 275$ capital would equal 25x higher trading/buying power ...or 6875$

end of the month, clocked the 6%....funded will receive 3% ( half what made)
vs
own acct receive 6% (x25) ( the full profit is yours to keep)

of course there are more shades to add to the above, restrictions, actual margin cut off, broker choice, dispute about trading when you are a 3rd party and not the acct holder on your name, etc.
there is no conservative between a 4% or a 100% stopout if both have the same outcome to the trader, game over.

all i meant to say it isnt that simple as it looks at face value.

happy weekend!
there is always, always another trade!!
  • #654
  • Dec 5, 2020 3:42am Dec 5, 2020 3:42am
Quoting OutThere
{quote} You just admitted that 2 accounts, one funded with 6K and one funded with $275 produce the same result. Boom, my point too. The $5750 doesn't matter. It is not even there. It's locked up in the top cupboard and you can't reach it. Why would something that is not reachable to you is advertised as something that has been facilitated to you? Also, even though you say you trade a $275 account just like a 6K account, let me remind you of your statement earlier: Until recently my trading has mostly focused on maximizing profit -- but prop trading...
Okay -- good. True -- I cannot trade them the same. And that's because until now I've been more aggressive and going for profit, whereas that wouldn't work well with a prop account because I have to stay within the rules. But as long as I recognize that and can tweak my risk and money management accordingly, then I can continue to use my "tweaked" strategy.

But whether I trade the same strategy or not is immaterial. I'm the one that is trading both. Maybe I trade them the same, or maybe I trade them differently. Makes no difference. When I lose $240 it's because I lost it. My bank account doesn't care which account I lost if from -- losing $240 is losing $240. But if I'm going to lose $240 I'd much rather lose it while trading the 6K account because, you know, maybe I don't lose the $240 right away and hang on for awhile. If I hang on for 6 months I'll make more money trading the 6K account than a $275 account.

Yep -- let's agree to disagree.
  • #655
  • Dec 5, 2020 3:49am Dec 5, 2020 3:49am
Quoting profitfarmer
{quote} as i would see it, unbiased. strictly looking, for the 6k funded acct you can "lose" 275$ or -4%+the buffer so, to make it equal that max loss... technically your own personal 275$ acct would be also allow to lose 275$ (100%) and thus allow you 25% more of the loss limit of the 4% given by the funded acct. leverage would be able to use to max too... so your 6% a clip each month strategy thus could be literally traded full to 25x the max allowed 4% dd, meaning, again literally, that your 275$ capital would equal 25x higher trading/buying...
@profitfarmer -- you lost me, though not for the first time...

If two people have a conceptual disagreement from the 30000-foot view, introducing additional ground-level details doesn't help. As for things aren't always as simple as they look -- thank you for that brilliant statement. I'm going to frame it on my wall.
  • #656
  • Dec 5, 2020 4:35am Dec 5, 2020 4:35am
Lmao OutThere strikes again.
  • #657
  • Dec 5, 2020 4:47am Dec 5, 2020 4:47am
Quoting robots4me
{quote} @profitfarmer -- you lost me, though not for the first time... If two people have a conceptual disagreement from the 30000-foot view, introducing additional ground-level details doesn't help. As for things aren't always as simple as they look -- thank you for that brilliant statement. I'm going to frame it on my wall.
For a change get down from that high hor...the 30000 feet view...
The comment was intended to help.
Once you look closer the numbers should start to make more sense.
Once in a while look beyond the past differences may help too. positively.
If framing a quote move you forward, by all means do it.
there is always, always another trade!!
  • #658
  • Dec 5, 2020 5:01am Dec 5, 2020 5:01am
Quoting profitfarmer
{quote} For a change get down from that high hor...the 30000 feet view... The comment was intended to help. Once you look closer the numbers should start to make more sense. Once in a while look beyond the past differences may help too. positively. If framing a quote move you forward, by all means do it.
Your reminder that things are not always as simple as they look is so typical of many of your postings. You muddy the waters with details irrelevant to the main discussion that leave people scratching their head. And then follow that with a condescending closing statement -- that's your style. Your alias should be @pompousfarmer...
  • #659
  • Dec 5, 2020 5:18am Dec 5, 2020 5:18am
Quoting robots4me
{quote} Your reminder that things are not always as simple as they look is so typical of many of your postings. You muddy the waters with details irrelevant to the main discussion that leave people scratching their head. And then follow that with a condescending closing statement -- that's your style. Your alias should be @pompousfarmer...
try again.
the numbers are there.
you can do better then this!
(and i didnt even refer to the name calling.)
my first post was spot on topic.
there is always, always another trade!!
  • #660
  • Edited 5:44am Dec 5, 2020 5:27am | Edited 5:44am
The discussion around the loss limit comes to life every often. It is important to be aware that the program has different aspects as I have mentioned a few posts above. Nevertheless, in regard to the idea our 6K account can be reproduced with a 275 retail broker account is only theoretical and is not considering real-life conditions.
Let me explain:
6,000 account with 1:6 leverage allows you 36,000 market value positions.
With a $275 account, you would need to use 1:130 leverage.

With the best (and rare) scenario, you will only profit, so with your 275 accounts, you will need less leverage, yet a relatively high and risky one.
In a more common situation, while you might encounter some drawdown, margin requirements become heavy and nonrealistic.
Say you have lost $75, your 6K account is now worth $5,925 and your retail account is $200

Your 5ers account now can take 35,500 market value positions, to match that with a $200 account you have to use 1:177 leverage.
As you go deeper DD, your self-funded account margin requirement becomes impossible, and so your recovery potential.

For concluding my argument, considering you need the drawdown to let your portfolio breathe, you could not escape bringing more capital margin to allow the same trade conditions.
We are Forex traders - Come trade with us
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