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Why do traders use so many indicators?

  • #361
  • Feb 20, 2020 4:41pm Feb 20, 2020 4:41pm
Quoting TimeTells
{quote} Spot on Moody, and yes George would have been watching this for weeks. {image}
Thanks TimeTells... targets targets targets. Price has to take out the stops. Reverses and takes out trailing stops. Reverses again and heads off to another target having left a fresh one...for later.
Every day, every pair, day in day out every time frame.
It’s just like Pac-Man hoovering up.
Draw previous weekly unbroken high lows, but the catch is to head back far enough in time, and in this example, EURUSD, 3 years.
Price took out previous stops and left a fresh low.
Do indicators show an opinion on future price and direction. Yes. And it’s garbage.
The only reliable indicator is a hand drawn line.
  • #362
  • Feb 20, 2020 4:43pm Feb 20, 2020 4:43pm
Quoting moodybot
{quote} Well done. Targets attract price. Not indicators. Never have, never will. Georges thread. Best on FF...it’s in the recycle bin. The best usually are. M.
when euro turn a possible target can be 1.1215?

EDITED:
I see a small gap near the top
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: EURUSDH4.png Size: 21 KB
Uncertainty of the market must be embraced and accepted.
  • #363
  • Feb 20, 2020 4:44pm Feb 20, 2020 4:44pm
Quoting j12
{quote} How does YouTube trading work? Can you explain please??

Sure. Here you go:

https://www.forexfactory.com/showthr...3#post12766393
  • #364
  • Feb 20, 2020 4:49pm Feb 20, 2020 4:49pm
Quoting JetTrader
{quote} Let's take it one massive step further, shall we. Let's all go Live Stream on YouTube and expose Trading Account Balances in Real-Time. That will cut straight to the heart of the matter. A Trade Explorer having outstanding mathematical returns and no real Growth of Capital is worth little. In fact, let's take it even one more step further than that. Let's (simply) declare an FF Live Stream Traders Challenge, create a new FF thread for this purpose, then embed each Trader's live stream into that thread. It would be tremendous fun and highly...
I think we should all write to the mods to get rid of account verifications & trade explorers. It's better to switch to YouTube streaming trading to verify.

Next time we go to the bank for a mortgage, instead of showing them solid statements & wage slips, we need to start showing them YouTube streaming videos of us doing work. This will 100% fill them of more confidence. It will show them that we can do work & demonstrate that we have worked previously.

This is 100% the way forward
J12
  • #365
  • Feb 20, 2020 4:52pm Feb 20, 2020 4:52pm
Quoting moodybot
{quote} Actually, thinking about it, regarding this thread, has anyone taken Longs EURUSD within last few days and got stopped out? This would be a classic way to explain the stop outs...using naked charts.

However, to amuse, I will now go long, EURUSD - just for kicks and giggles. Target is an absurd 16.9 pips at 1.08051:

Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: EURUSD Long.png Size: 109 KB


Of course, just for kicks and giggles and just to demonstrate trading in extremely tight zones of opportunity that go waaaaaay outside my normal boundaries for both Profit Potential (this is far too low at just 16 pips) and the show the precision of the System I use.

This is definitely a Scalp and definitely nothing I would do in production trading. There are much better candidates out there. However, the request was for something related to EURUSD. So, I'm plucking it from the ether and trading it.

Now, who has the counter-trade to EURUSD?
  • #366
  • Feb 20, 2020 4:53pm Feb 20, 2020 4:53pm
Quoting JetTrader
{quote} It would be a classic way to describe a total misunderstanding of Delta based Magnitude. Here's the chart and a Panel that explains why Long's have been getting killed of late: {image} This is the start of a New Year. That means, as a Trader, you are dealing with an enormously large set of Delta based price movements that need to set themselves for the year. Since January 1st, the Leading-Short-Vega on EURUSD took off first for the year. It plunged 312 pips from the 1st through Today. The Trailing-Short-Vega plunged 310 pips over the exact...
Can you provide an explanation as to why price took out the target from March 2017?
Can you tell me what would be accumulated around that target.
No matter how you want to land this, price moves target to target, always has.
However much lipstick you want to add to your monologues the number one reason price moves is to take out stops.
And here is something else for you, each pair is an Algorithm... nothing more nothing less.
Each pair programmed to move independently.
But here’s the rub, they have to do it undercover of news, to hide the fact that it’s a fake market.
Now you can believe what you like, but you’re not trading a real entity.
  • #367
  • Feb 20, 2020 4:55pm Feb 20, 2020 4:55pm
Quoting moodybot
{quote} Thanks TimeTells... targets targets targets. Price has to take out the stops. Reverses and takes out trailing stops. Reverses again and heads off to another target having left a fresh one...for later. Every day, every pair, day in day out every time frame. It’s just like Pac-Man hoovering up. Draw previous weekly unbroken high lows, but the catch is to head back far enough in time, and in this example, EURUSD, 3 years. Price took out previous stops and left a fresh low. Do indicators show an opinion on future price and direction. Yes....

Spot on Moody.

The TARGETS I mention are NOT pivot targets. They are as Moody explained from George (from the time & effort George put in to SEE all this where few could).

Indicators provide a coincidence for where the TARGETS lay.

(Yet some DO co-incide. Regularly. That is the interesting thing I have found in my search of all this)


So we as traders do what we do - whatever we do - to turn the profit that IS available out there.


We could talk entries at some point also.

That could address the larger initial DD situations.

(I have the thought that the original correct price direction traders take - that gets blown out of the water into DD is nothing but the algo running against the original direction trade - so maybe best not to jump in quickly sometimes when everything about a price move looks so perfect. The algo move is setup to PREVENT this immediate success. Reversals might be best at this stage, which some label as "trading contrarian to Retail. The EURAUD trade out there here could well be an example of this. Wait & watch is sometimes the best trade method)

Trading for me. 1. Directional momentum continuation. 2. Reversal trading at the major run against the current flow. And BOTH towards those Targets.

Nothing is simple or easy. Takes watching.
  • #368
  • Feb 20, 2020 5:00pm Feb 20, 2020 5:00pm
Since I know how much certain people in this thread hate "Indicators" - I've taken the liberty to dumb this one down to another Black Blank Chart:

Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: EURUSD Long Naked.png Size: 20 KB


Can't make it anymore naked than that.
  • #369
  • Feb 20, 2020 5:08pm Feb 20, 2020 5:08pm
Quoting TimeTells
{quote} Spot on Moody. The TARGETS I mention are NOT pivot targets. They are as Moody explained from George (from the time & effort George put in to SEE all this where few could). Indicators provide a coincidence for where the TARGETS lay. (Yet some DO co-incide. Regularly. That is the interesting thing I have found in my search of all this) So we as traders do what we do - whatever we do - to turn the profit that IS available out there. We could talk entries at some point also. That could address the larger initial DD situations. (I have the thought...
Thanks TimeTells... PilotDude is flying IFR with the screens up and its CAVOK....can’t think how else to put it across.
  • #370
  • Feb 20, 2020 5:08pm Feb 20, 2020 5:08pm
Spot on Moody !!!

100% agree with everything you said...

It's all targets with stops at the train stations along the way

March 2017... Beauty !
Master your Mind,,,Master the Market
  • #371
  • Feb 20, 2020 5:26pm Feb 20, 2020 5:26pm
Quoting moodybot
Do indicators show an opinion on future price and direction. Yes. And it’s garbage. The only reliable indicator is a hand drawn line.
This is where opinion differs.

Manually hand drawn lines versus math based tools.

Do quants use hand drawn lines ?

Quants is the future of trading. They are already here.

You wrote a central algo is behind price movement.

I agree.

You use hand drawn lines.

I use math to analyse this math based algo.

That's the huge difference.
Know what you trade
  • #372
  • Feb 20, 2020 5:31pm Feb 20, 2020 5:31pm
Quoting TimeTells
Trading for me. 1. Directional momentum continuation. 2. Reversal trading at the major run against the current flow. And BOTH towards those Targets. Nothing is simple or easy. Takes watching.
I asked this question much earlier in this thread.

https://www.forexfactory.com/showthr...1#post12749351

I assume you trade naked chart with hand drawn lines.

Can you demonstrate on your naked chart,

1. How you read direction ?

2. How you read momentum ?

3. How you read reversal or continuation ?
Know what you trade
  • #373
  • Feb 20, 2020 5:32pm Feb 20, 2020 5:32pm
Quoting BWilliam
{quote} This is where opinion differs. Manually hand drawn lines versus math based tools. Do quants use hand drawn lines ? Quants is the future of trading. They are already here. You wrote a central algo is behind price movement. I agree. You use hand drawn lines. I use math to analyse this math based algo. That's the huge difference.
Algorithmic trading has been proven to be less profitable than human discretionary trading, even within hedge funds. The only thing that may eventually supersede humans in trading is AI, and that's if it is ever developed and actually works the way it is designed. There is a lot of evidence to support that that is the future and if it does, that will make trading exponentially harder for us (humans) to do without AI in the future. For now though, in terms of ROI. Human discretionary trading decisions are proven to be more profitable than algorithmic models, and even the ones that do well require human intervention.

If you don't believe me, look it up yourself.
  • #374
  • Feb 20, 2020 5:39pm Feb 20, 2020 5:39pm
Quoting moodybot
Can you provide an explanation as to why price took out the target from March 2017?
No target specified for March 2017, so I can't reply to that.


Quoting moodybot
Can you tell me what would be accumulated around that target.
Once we know to what Target you refer.


Quoting moodybot
No matter how you want to land this, price moves target to target, always has.
The Target has to be defined as a Future Price Level. For example, my current Long trade (though a lousy trade condition, no doubt) has a defined Target that sits out into the future. It is a price level that has not been struck from the point of the current entry. So, until you specify a Target into the Future (from some point on the chart in the past relative to the year 2017), I won't know how to address this question rationally.


Quoting moodybot
However much lipstick you want to add to your monologues the number one reason price moves is to take out stops.
The input side of the "Market" does not know anything about the mechanics of Stops being taken out. People theorize about it, but the input side of the Market cannot properly identify it as a real thing. Market Makers and the Institutions (Banks) that back them with the Credit Facility to use your Deposit as Collateral for any Liabilities they incur by allowing you to trade at 2,000,000:1 leverage, is the precisely one (1) of the many reasons why price moves in Spot FX.

There is Retail FX, and then there is Interbank. Do you really believe that your Retail Lots reach Interbank Counter-Parties. When was the last time you traded a Yard, or anything close to a Yard. You are not on Interbank, you trade inside a Virtual Trading Game that sits on your Market Maker's back-end server. You trade with House Money and you trade House Rules. But, that does not mean that you cannot learn to exploit House Rules using House Money.

I don't trade Pairs that don't have sufficient Daily Magnitude by rule and protocol. The EURUSD has not had sufficient D1 Magnitude for quite some time now and I won't trade it again in Production until it wakes up. I'm simply doing this trade, merely because I can and because you asked for something relative to that Pair. So, I'm trying to accommodate your demands while remaining in the "spirit" of the OP.

Now, in which Direction are you now trading EURUSD?


Quoting moodybot
And here is something else for you, each pair is an Algorithm...
Ok.


Quoting moodybot
Each pair programmed to move independently.
Ok.


Quoting moodybot
But here’s the rub, they have to do it undercover of news,

I've heard the conspiracy theory before. It is neither a theory that I am unfamiliar with, nor unprepared to deal with.

Whether that "model" uses a pseudorandom number generator, synthetic binary switching algorithm, a Gaussian algorithm for random number generation, or one of my home cooked synthetic Delta based algorithms for random number generation detection, probably does not matter much to me. The reason for this has been posted above, where I explain the inherent nature of Structure being extant and elemental to any Random Process. This is the way Nature works. These are the Mechanics found nicely distributed throughout the Known Universe and wherever we look.

Random can and does coexist with Structure. They are inextricably linked to each other at the Quantum level which is detected at the Physical level. Non-physical being made manifest in the Physical. This is the True Nature of Life itself. Of course, we are now fully adrift into an area that most here won't care much about.

So, thanks for the tip!
  • #375
  • Feb 20, 2020 5:40pm Feb 20, 2020 5:40pm
Quoting viptrading
{quote} Algorithmic trading has been proven to be less profitable than human discretionary trading, even within hedge funds. The only thing that may eventually supersede humans in trading is AI, and that's if it is ever developed and actually works the way it is designed. There is a lot of evidence to support that that is the future and if it does, that will make trading exponentially harder for us (humans) to do without AI in the future. For now though, in terms of ROI. Human discretionary trading decisions are proven to be more profitable than...
To be clear I wrote,

Moodybot suggested that the price is drawn by an algo.

I agree.

I analyse this algo with math based tools.
I trade manually based on these tools.
I don't do algo trading. I wish I could.
I admit I am not smart and skilled enough to build an algo to take over trading.
Know what you trade
  • #376
  • Feb 20, 2020 5:41pm Feb 20, 2020 5:41pm
Quoting TimeTells
{quote} Spot on Moody. The TARGETS I mention are NOT pivot targets. They are as Moody explained from George (from the time & effort George put in to SEE all this where few could). Indicators provide a coincidence for where the TARGETS lay. (Yet some DO co-incide. Regularly. That is the interesting thing I have found in my search of all this) So we as traders do what we do - whatever we do - to turn the profit that IS available out there. We could talk entries at some point also. That could address the larger initial DD situations. (I have the thought...
george was a loser trying to fake 100% wins he said i have never lost a trade in a video and you guys fell for it
people leave, but this thread will go on for ever
  • #377
  • Feb 20, 2020 5:46pm Feb 20, 2020 5:46pm
Quoting Aussi
{quote} george was a loser trying to fake 100% wins he said i have never lost a trade in a video and you guys fell for it
Really?
Then you can explain the targets and why price heads to it like an Aussie at a honey hole.
Just the targets Aussie explain why George’s take on targets is wrong. Remember Aussie, focus on the targets. Prove George wrong. If you do, I’ll follow your threads implicitly.
  • #378
  • Feb 20, 2020 5:54pm Feb 20, 2020 5:54pm
Quoting BWilliam
{quote} I asked this question much earlier in this thread. https://www.forexfactory.com/showthr...1#post12749351 I assume you trade naked chart with hand drawn lines. Can you demonstrate on your naked chart, 1. How you read direction ? 2. How you read momentum ? 3. How you read reversal or continuation ?

Hi BW,

Mate I do not trade naked charts.

I have made two trade related posts on this thread. Both this morning (in Oz that is).

Posting is something I haven't done for yonks, but it was good for me to see my friends Moody & Bluey on here.

I avoid all threads (bar the music one) these days for my sanity & safety lol (another friend Dave from Florida will understand best lol)


So those 2 posts this morning pretty much explain what I do (my training wheels).

I do not use a SPECIFIC Maths based formula for trading. I am a visual trader. I see what I see. And I know what I see.

This can frustrate academics I know, but it is what it is.

I embrace what I do, and how I do it, and I do it on a small scale (for my own personal non trading reasons).


So this thread had the chance to help NEW traders.

I hope these new traders do not feel confused (&/or discouraged) by the maybe overwhelming volumes of information emanating.

And I wish you all the best BW with your own trading pal.
Pete
  • #379
  • Feb 20, 2020 5:55pm Feb 20, 2020 5:55pm
Quoting moodybot
Targets attract price. Not indicators. Never have, never will.
This is the problem. When I see something like this, it becomes clear to me that some people just have a really hard time understanding the Purpose and Use of an Indicator.

Since when was it ever the job of an Indicator to attract Price. That's just a classic giveaway that there is a fundamental misunderstanding about what an Indicator is designed to accomplish. No. Indicators are not there to "attract price."

Indicators are designed to provide the Trader with information about Market Behavior. Indicators have absolutely zero to do with "attracting price." The Market does not know or care about your Indicator. The Market is separate and distinct from your Indicator. The "job" of your Indicator is to function at levels your brain cannot keep pace with and provide you with information about Market Dynamics in return.

Indicators don't do anything other than Inform.

My gawd. It is not that hard a concept to understand.
  • #380
  • Feb 20, 2020 5:55pm Feb 20, 2020 5:55pm
Quoting j12
{quote} I think we should all write to the mods to get rid of account verifications & trade explorers. It's better to switch to YouTube streaming trading to verify. Next time we go to the bank for a mortgage, instead of showing them solid statements & wage slips, we need to start showing them YouTube streaming videos of us doing work. This will 100% fill them of more confidence. It will show them that we can do work & demonstrate that we have worked previously. This is 100% the way forward
J12, this is a trading discussion thread. For traders to communicate with fellow traders.

You are suggesting a rule on FF that participants of such discussion is first required to post a trade explorer before he is allowed to post. Does it make sense ?
Know what you trade
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