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  • #8,281
  • Nov 7, 2018 8:14pm Nov 7, 2018 8:14pm
Quoting pooh123
{quote} Valesch, You are right that those stop levels are spot on and most of times his "live calls" do work out. He got those stop levels from multi-brokers' orderbook, which include Oanda and other brokers. His indicator used to get data feed from Oanda only, back in the days when it was owned and sold by Tarmo. Later the two of them updated the indicator to add data feed from other brokers. He is in the process of launching the upgraded version to the public, which he is not willing to disclose at current stage. Sometimes market makers do hunt...

Now that is an awesome post Pooh !

Very well said.. Succinct and to the point...no fluff...no bullshit..

(MMM I like this color..)

Truth of the matter is RR is everything in trading.. in fact IMO from my own years of experience and most experts agree... Long term profitable traders ..FT traders.. all have less than a 50% hit rate.

No magic Indis...
the magic is Trade management , cutting losers quick..adding to your winners and your exit..

Entries can be made with a flip of a quarter for the most part.

Any room can take a trade.. but exiting is where it's at.

its what changed my trading from failure to success..


anyways AWESOME post Pooh !

i think if anyone is a Harvard graduate ..it's Pooh lol
Master your Mind,,,Master the Market
  • #8,282
  • Nov 7, 2018 8:46pm Nov 7, 2018 8:46pm
Quoting bluesteele
{quote} Now that is an awesome post Pooh ! Very well said.. Succinct and to the point...no fluff...no bullshit.. (MMM I like this color..) Truth of the matter is RR is everything in trading.. in fact IMO from my own years of experience and most experts agree... Long term profitable traders ..FT traders.. all have less than a 50% hit rate. No magic Indis... the magic is Trade management , cutting losers quick..adding to your winners and your exit.. Entries can be made with a flip of a quarter for the most part. Any room can...
Thanks for your kind words. Something to add here. What made me stop experimenting with the stop run method is 1) the low R:R; 2) traders pulling their stops away.

I already talked about its low R:R. Let me elaborate here about traders pulling their stops away. I have my own tool of broker's orderbook. With the tool I found that, as price approaches their stops, sometimes retail traders will pull their stops away. Smart money see that real time and they will end the stop run and price will reverse. However my tool only updates once every 20 mins so I don't know it. I still let my TP limit order hang there waiting for the stop run to hit the target. When it comes time for the update after the 20 min internal, to my astonishment, those net stop clusters are gone. So, with this strategy, even when smart money do move in your planned direction to hunt the stops, the target is not guaranteed. It can vanish out of thin air.

I just don't feel comfortable trading a system that has low R:R and elusive profit target. So I decided not to use it as a stand alone strategy and stopped experimenting with it. Maybe that's the same reason why FractalFreak is willing to reveal the strategy to the public
  • #8,283
  • Nov 7, 2018 11:58pm Nov 7, 2018 11:58pm
Quoting pooh123
{quote} Thanks for your kind words. Something to add here. What made me stop experimenting with the stop run method is 1) the low R:R; 2) traders pulling their stops away. I already talked about its low R:R. Let me elaborate here about traders pulling their stops away. I have my own tool of broker's orderbook. With the tool I found that, as price approaches their stops, sometimes retail traders will pull their stops away. Smart money see that real time and they will end the stop run and price will reverse. However my tool only updates once every...
so you say that the big guys can "see" the stops being pulled away, so the reaction is reversal.

But those guys do see open positions and know that the "pain" that those open positions are in. Why would they reverse that. Traders dont' have unlimited margins, so pushing against open positions is what i think stop hunt really is right? i don't know this for a fact, im just approaching this from what i think makes sense. In this case, price should keep going against the postions until the open positions liquidate (hit pain tolerance) and the flood gates are open and price crash more...
  • #8,284
  • Edited 2:12am Nov 8, 2018 12:14am | Edited 2:12am
Quoting hilmy83
{quote} so you say that the big guys can "see" the stops being pulled away, so the reaction is reversal. But those guys do see open positions and know that the "pain" that those open positions are in. Why would they reverse that. Traders dont' have unlimited margins, so pushing against open positions is what i think stop hunt really is right? i don't know this for a fact, im just approaching this from what i think makes sense. In this case, price should keep going against the postions until the open positions liquidate (hit pain tolerance) and the...
You are right. Sometimes SM do keep pushing on and continue the onslaught. Usually when this happens there was accumulation by SM prior to the stop run, which is visible through volume spread analysis. In this case, SM are determined to make a sizable move, creating what we call a trend. Stop hunting is just part of the reasons they make such a move. Some other times, when there is no adequate accumulation by SM and after they start the stop run, if DM pull their stops away, in most such cases SM will stop the chase and price will reverse. To SM there is associated cost for stop run. If DM move their stops far away, SM will have to push a long distance to get those stops, hitting profit target for a lot of DM traders, which is a cost for SM. So SM may retreat first. With the reversal of price, DM will move their stops back to their original position. SM have other ways to get them later. What Fractal calls "time and range" is one such way, in which case DM often cannot stand the grind and exit the market themselves at BE or a small loss.

Edit:
A general rule is, the more prepared SM is prior to the stop run, the more likely they'll push onward even if DM pull their stops away. If a stop run is sudden and abrupt without much accumulation/preparation, SM is more likely to stop the chase when DM pull their stops away. Of course, like with almost everything in trading, there're exceptions to this rule.
  • #8,285
  • Nov 8, 2018 12:18am Nov 8, 2018 12:18am
Im not even sure if its legal to upload our stop levels(or entry/tp) to youtube and every kind of public websites and b1tch about it... I mean its pretty much our personal information
Necessity knows no law except to conquer
  • #8,286
  • Nov 8, 2018 2:21am Nov 8, 2018 2:21am
Interesting thanks Pooh!

Regarding the software, ‘Djami boi’ and Tarmo will repackage the impulse xpulse fdtrader software, renaming it after upgrade and offer it for sale as a new package online, hence they are removing all mentions of the software from the internet archives. I wonder if anyone backed up all of the information before they removed all of data regarding the impulse xpulse fdtrader software indicators?

This will be interesting to compare the new indicators with the older indicators side by side, I imagine all they will do is add a few more brokers to the data feed and then offer on a monthly/yearly subscription fee, via fractalfreaks website.

The above is their business strategy in a nutshell. It has been selling since 2013 so it is obviously not worth the time or effort in trying to use it, but to sell it, that is where the money is. It is easier to sell a software product than use it to make money from it, that is why you will never see users of the software show any trade explorers or profits, it is easier to sell the software than trade with it and make money.

Traders trade, those who cannot, usually teach trading via courses for their income, or sell their offerings online, I mean look around and see how much crap there is on offer, there are no visible profits or trade profit loss results for a reason.

Good luck with your business ‘Djami boi’ and Tarmo.
  • #8,287
  • Nov 8, 2018 3:17am Nov 8, 2018 3:17am
Pooh123, thank you!
Finally an intelligent man arround.
So all things considered that you wrote, I would still love to have at home what FF has assembled there.
It is like a xray vision into the market.. pay for it? Mayybe
cheers!
  • #8,288
  • Nov 8, 2018 3:38am Nov 8, 2018 3:38am
I agree Pooh, there is a logic in the method, but as you say stops can disappear without notice and we can still lose.
FF was caught out by exactly the same thing with the NU trade.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news...ing/ar-BBPsqCZ
It never gets easier, you just get better
  • #8,289
  • Edited 4:04am Nov 8, 2018 3:42am | Edited 4:04am
Quoting 3ndlessHope
Im not even sure if its legal to upload our stop levels(or entry/tp) to youtube and every kind of public websites and b1tch about it... I mean its pretty much our personal information
If I was selling the personal trade information of retail stop loss clusters for a subscription fee and making money off of broker data, which is illegal, I would be concerned about my identity being shown and be very careful not to upset the ‘wrong people’ including the brokers who I am reselling the data from. It would be very easy for someone to pick up the phone and contact the brokers with their personal information and have their data feeds cut at a moments notice. I would probably steer clear of reselling broker data as it is illegal/fraud. I hope they have both done their due diligence and have good lawyers. Also it would be interesting to see how the FCA and GFSC would view this.
  • #8,290
  • Nov 8, 2018 3:50am Nov 8, 2018 3:50am
Quoting Shabs19
I agree Pooh, there is a logic in the method, but as you say stops can disappear without notice and we can still lose. FF was caught out by exactly the same thing with the NU trade. https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news...ing/ar-BBPsqCZ
That was not a matter of stops being pulled away but of unexpected good kiwi data on the back of weakening Dollar.. if you accuse than be distinctive in your arguments please.
  • #8,291
  • Nov 8, 2018 4:08am Nov 8, 2018 4:08am
Expect something like "SM is planning an attack on me for releasing SL clusters to the public blablabla im a martyr blabla dukas is red and red is green trolls blah free 2000 euro subscription on private website meh 120 pointless questions duh".

It is coming.
Necessity knows no law except to conquer
  • #8,292
  • Nov 8, 2018 4:21am Nov 8, 2018 4:21am
Quoting valesch
{quote} That was not a matter of stops being pulled away but of unexpected good kiwi data on the back of weakening Dollar.. if you accuse than be distinctive in your arguments please.
I am just saying, maybe he called a short because he saw SM shorts but were pulled at the last minute after good news.
It never gets easier, you just get better
  • #8,293
  • Nov 8, 2018 4:48am Nov 8, 2018 4:48am
Quoting pooh123
{quote} Thanks for your kind words. Something to add here. What made me stop experimenting with the stop run method is 1) the low R:R; 2) traders pulling their stops away. I already talked about its low R:R. Let me elaborate here about traders pulling their stops away. I have my own tool of broker's orderbook. With the tool I found that, as price approaches their stops, sometimes retail traders will pull their stops away. Smart money see that real time and they will end the stop run and price will reverse. However my tool only updates once every...
Pooh123, I think the answer to the problem of pulling away the SL orders is that SM is indeed smart and THEY place fake orders. The orderbook do not tell you what is a stop loss order and what is a limit buy/sell order.
So SM place a limit buy above the price and the sentiment indicators interpret this as a sell stop loss .. But it is not. And as soon as prices comes close to that order SM cancel it.

In other markets you call this tactics spoofing.
  • #8,294
  • Edited 6:09am Nov 8, 2018 4:57am | Edited 6:09am
Quoting wqayx
{quote} Pooh123, I think the answer to the problem of pulling away the SL orders is that SM is indeed smart and THEY place fake orders. The orderbook do not tell you what is a stop loss order and what is a limit buy/sell order. So SM place a limit buy above the price and the sentiment indicators interpret this as a sell stop loss .. But it is not. And as soon as prices comes close to that order SM cancel it. In other markets you call this tactics spoofing.
Forex brokers' orderbook does differentiate between limit orders and stop orders. SM don't do spoofing with retail broker's orderbook. Retail traders' volume is a fraction of institutions' volume. For SM retail traders are only collateral damage in the forex game. They won't bother with doing that.

Currency futures is a completely different game.
  • #8,295
  • Nov 8, 2018 5:04am Nov 8, 2018 5:04am
Quoting pooh123
{quote} Forex brokers' orderbook does differentiate between limit orders and stop orders. SM don't do spoofing with retail broker's orderbook. Retail traders' volume is a fraction of institutions' volume. For SM retail traders are only collateral damage in the forex game. They won't bother with doing that. Currency futures is completely different game.
Would you show a screenshot where limit and stop orders are separated? Oanda or similar. I am sure that the publicly available data feed does not show it.
  • #8,296
  • Nov 8, 2018 5:30am Nov 8, 2018 5:30am
Quoting pooh123
{quote} Forex brokers' orderbook does differentiate between limit orders and stop orders. SM don't do spoofing with retail broker's orderbook. Retail traders' volume is a fraction of institutions' volume. For SM retail traders are only collateral damage in the forex game. They won't bother with doing that. Currency futures is completely different game.
And who said that the manipulation of retail traders open orders are made to confuse retail traders? It is made for anyone who takes different sentiments into consideration.
  • #8,297
  • Edited 6:30am Nov 8, 2018 6:14am | Edited 6:30am
Quoting wqayx
{quote} Would you show a screenshot where limit and stop orders are separated? Oanda or similar. I am sure that the publicly available data feed does not show it.
On Oanda orderbook, buy orders above current price are buy stop orders; buy orders below current price are buy limit orders; sell orders above current price are sell limit orders; sell orders below current price are sell stop orders.
Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: Orderbook.JPG Size: 105 KB
  • #8,298
  • Nov 8, 2018 6:22am Nov 8, 2018 6:22am
Quoting valesch
Pooh123, thank you! Finally an intelligent man arround. So all things considered that you wrote, I would still love to have at home what FF has assembled there. It is like a xray vision into the market.. pay for it? Mayybe cheers!
you are extrem unexperienced your answer is wrong in any way.

a good advice: stop trading and learn the basics, you have not the brain and ego for trading, but maybe you can change. when all experienced traders tell you its bullshit, and only very low skill people are in fractalfreaks thread, you should start thinking much faster. face the reality, dont dream your life like in the moment, very risky in trading.

and to help you:
- fractalfreak know it was news at this time later, he know it, put trades because of the news, he even was happy his trades triggered all after news, and had market orders inside before of news... so this news has nothing to do with it (of course for smart people is has to do, but in your case you speak about fractalfreak and he was very very often trades inside the news with his predictions, so he can fake much much more).... fractalfreak was even so sure with his trade, that this was his only prediction and put in trading contest as only trade and even then so 100% sure that he told his opponents have automatic the oppsite of the trade (so this trade was his best of best of best prediction he had to offer!!, even this trade he faked of course and did notr in real, he lost so much in trading, do you really think this loser will trade again?, when idiots believe him by writing abaut trading).... thats why this fractalclown lost his trading challenge in hours, because all other have many 100% more money now in account then he has, challenge stoped because margincall of fractalfreak and his many many nzd usd orders

- order book is not complete in spot market, when you want use orderbook, then take trading futures. and orderbook trader are loved by HFT programs and orderbook fake traders...... this easy to kill traders are fun to play.... its because this beginner think orderbook is there to present what people want to buy/sell with stoporders and limitorders... but many orders from the big are only there to let you see what they like you should see what they maybe want to buy/sell.... this difference is extrem. so with orderbook trading you are in wrong market (in spot market you see near nothing, and even this is wrong) and even when you use orderbook trading you have to know what true later traded orders and what not....

- that fractalfreak use fake indicator (not true with what he tells, that this show order stops from retail traders), that fractalclown fakes all trades (he had not 1 (!!!) prediction correct or done correct (he never put in trade like time, price, takeprofit, stoploss,..... anyone can fake all when such in not inside... all he is doing is wrting later , he is out, all time from orders he never wrote he was in to what price with what SL... tink about it). because he dont trade in real and only use demoaccont and paper trading he dont care for this, his real money account already crashed, noone makes win with his trading system... but why do you think such a loser and faker want sell all his shit with passiv marketing, he know selling garbage indicator can bring money, trading it lose all his manoey again and agin, and he cant lose any more?

- find the rest by simpel reading the thread!
  • #8,299
  • Nov 8, 2018 6:32am Nov 8, 2018 6:32am
Quoting pooh123
{quote} On Oanda orderbook, buy orders above current price are buy stop orders; buy orders below current price are buy limit orders; sell orders above current price are sell limit orders; sell orders below current price are sell stop orders.
You are wrong on that pooh123.
Oanda (and all other publicly available data feeds) show you ALL Buy/sell open orders.
Open buy orders above price = stop-loss orders (sellers) + buy limit orders.
  • #8,300
  • Nov 8, 2018 6:35am Nov 8, 2018 6:35am
Quoting pooh123
{quote} On Oanda orderbook, buy orders above current price are buy stop orders; buy orders below current price are buy limit orders; sell orders above current price are sell limit orders; sell orders below current price are sell stop orders. {image}
If it would be like you say, show me please on your chart the open buy/sell orders that are placed by break out traders for example.
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