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what's with this complaints about brokers

  • #1
  • First Post: Edited Aug 31, 2007 7:45am Oct 9, 2006 7:36pm | Edited Aug 31, 2007 7:45am
Am a newbie and still in learning phase . I've been reading alot on this forum; i've came about many people complaining that their broker ripped them off, their broker did this, their broker did that---what's with this broker complaints---Which is the right broker to trust ?, am asking because am afraid of having the same problem when i finally start to trade.

Is it really true that brokers can influence ones account or what?, please i need a comprehensive reply because am very curious .
Thanks in advance.
  • #2
  • Oct 9, 2006 7:48pm Oct 9, 2006 7:48pm
Quoting ladex142
Am a newbie and still in learning phase . I've been reading alot on this forum; i've came about many people complaining that their broker ripped them off, their broker did this, their broker did that---what's with this broker complains---Which is the right broker to trust ?, am asking because am afraid of having the same problem when i finally start to trade.

Is it really true that brokers can influence ones account or what?, please i need a comprehensive replies because am very curies .
Thanks in advance.
99% of the complainers would rather blame the broker than to accept responsibility for their own trading. Interesting how I've never had a single problem. Gee, I wonder what I'm doing wrong?!!

I'm with FX Solutions and have never had a bit of trouble. I might have trouble if I chose to leverage myself at 200:1 with a market order during NFP. If I did that and lost a lot of money, it would be MY FAULT not the broker's fault.

P.S. Disregard the broker complaints that are bound to follow my post.
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  • #3
  • Oct 9, 2006 7:55pm Oct 9, 2006 7:55pm
98.65% of complaints are from people who dont understand that a market order means "next best price". there are some legit complains floating around somewhere, but 96.78% of it is just newbies misunderstanding how the market works.
Relax and be happy.
  • #4
  • Oct 9, 2006 8:05pm Oct 9, 2006 8:05pm
thanks guys, now my mind is settled. So if i don't do anything stupid ,i won't have any stupid complaints
  • #5
  • Oct 9, 2006 9:42pm Oct 9, 2006 9:42pm
Quoting merlin
98.65% of complaints are from people who dont understand that a market order means "next best price". there are some legit complains floating around somewhere, but 96.78% of it is just newbies misunderstanding how the market works.

A market order means 'next best price' in the equities market because by placing a market order you are not actually specifying a price. You are prepared to take the next best price from the first buyer/seller in line. Otherwise, you would place a limit order and sit in the queue waiting for your order to be hit.

In the forex market, there is a difference since you actually specify the price at which you want to trade at, say buy GBP at 1.8700, you therefore do not intend to be filled at 1.8730 (slippage). The reason forex brokers treat your order to be a 'market order' at 'next best price' is just a rule created by themselves to scalp their clients or enter them at top of the spike to create a loss for the trader.

So, I am not sure it is just newbies misunderstanding the market, it's a question of fairness, and in the case of some forex brokers, lack of fairness.
  • #6
  • Oct 9, 2006 10:10pm Oct 9, 2006 10:10pm
Quoting merlin
98.65% of complaints are from people who dont understand that a market order means "next best price". there are some legit complains floating around somewhere, but 96.78% of it is just newbies misunderstanding how the market works.
98.65% .... 96.78% ... you know 92.43% of statistics are rubbish right? .............................. sorry couldn't resist ...

As has already been said, most complaints are to do with news time spreads and execution, they want the best of both world, huge 10 minute swings but instant execution at small spreads .... can't have your cake and eat it too ........ shees now I am hungry.
You can quit and they won't care, but you will always know.
  • #7
  • Oct 10, 2006 6:49pm Oct 10, 2006 6:49pm
Another thread about this?

The 4 stickies above didn't cover it?
Profit is where readiness meets Opportunity
  • #8
  • Oct 10, 2006 11:39pm Oct 10, 2006 11:39pm
Pip,

don't mean to rag on you man, but what the f--k are you taking about?

First you quote merlin who said taht 9x% of complaints come from people who don't understand the MARKET. Then you go off on some sort of exposition about market orders? where's the connection to what merlin said??

Just FYI, a market order DOES exist in forex...period. The "next best price" order IS called a market order in forex. If you believe otherwise, you'll need to back that up with proof. IF you specify a price, you are placing a LIMIT order, which, coincidentally, exists in forex as well. Just because you have big flashy buttons in forex doesn't negate the rules of standard commodity market trading...you place specific types of orders. Trust me, you can STILL get slippage with ECNs if you place a market order...so I fail to see at what point you think you can specify a price and call that market order. To reiterate...if you specify a price you want to buy or sell at, you're placing a limit order...at which point you may or may not get filled.

A question of fairness? Capitalism and the markets that were created are the epitomy of unfairness...some people win and some people lose. Not everyone is a winner all the time...there will undoubtedly be someone who gets caught with their pants down.

Look, brokers CAN make your life difficult, no one doubts this. However, you have choices...1) you can trade with a broker 2) you can trade with another type of entity (ECN) or 3) you can NOT trade. There is nothing wrong with any of these choices. However, I do believe that it is imperative that EVERYONE is aware of the risks of each. I think this is why so many people (myself included) get annoyed with broker complaints...people have other choices and yet they still choose the wrong ones for them despite the wealth of information on these and other forums.

Here's a thought...people really need to know more about why a certain broker or market entity is good and for what trading style it is good for. That is much more useful than venomous ranting that seems more likely to confuse than to educate. Traders, ESPECIALLY less experienced traders, need to be accutely aware of their trading style. Let's take FXCM for example...horrible for high-volatility trades, but EXCELLENT for secure funds (meaning a lesser likely-hood of going defunct...plus they have insured accounts). If you're a high volatility momentum trader, you're not going use your FXCM account, are you? However, if you're a swing trader that is not as risk-averse and wants to have peace-of-mind about the safety of his/her funds, then they're the best place to start. Or, let's take most ECNs...fantastic for high-volatility trading but TERRIBLE for carry traders. What account are you going to use to hold onto that 3-month elliot-wave trade where you'd like to collect interest because of increasing inflation in New Zealand? (not your ECN account...duh).

People like to complain, there's not doubt. I like to complain...hell, I'm complaining about complainers...however, I think it is really really important that traders understand where complaints come from. It's easy to spot a legitimate complaint (funds not being released on time, or poor customer service because phone lines are never answered) from a not so great complaint (broker sucks because I got slipped more than usual). Most complaints DO have merit, BUT it is important to be able to rate those merits on the relevance to your own systems. Brokers consistently slipping traders 30+ pips during NFP or other news does NOT give anyone a case for bashing a broker...it does not necessarily mean that a broker is good OR bad, it just means that, perhaps, this broker isn't very good during high volatility. Mentioning these types of events IS useful...but urging everyone to pull money out of their accounts because you have a beef on a single bad trade isn't condusive to traders. It just spreads fear that may not only be unjustified but counter-productive.

Like I said, it's important to mention your bad experiences...sure, say things like "wow, I got slipped by XYZ...I'm going to have stop using them during FOMC release until they get that fixed". That's much more productive AND it gets your point across. Furthermore, the broker drones that read these forums (and yes, there are some) might actually start listening to the broker "complaints". Squeaky wheel gets the grease, sure...but the annoying wheel gets replaced...or worse, ignored.

Just my 2 cents on complaints and how we can make them better.

Quoting PipStar
A market order means 'next best price' in the equities market because by placing a market order you are not actually specifying a price. You are prepared to take the next best price from the first buyer/seller in line. Otherwise, you would place a limit order and sit in the queue waiting for your order to be hit.

In the forex market, there is a difference since you actually specify the price at which you want to trade at, say buy GBP at 1.8700, you therefore do not intend to be filled at 1.8730 (slippage). The reason forex brokers treat your order to be a 'market order' at 'next best price' is just a rule created by themselves to scalp their clients or enter them at top of the spike to create a loss for the trader.

So, I am not sure it is just newbies misunderstanding the market, it's a question of fairness, and in the case of some forex brokers, lack of fairness.
  • #9
  • Oct 11, 2006 6:47am Oct 11, 2006 6:47am
mrikal, thanks for that insight. The connection with what Merlin says above is that I think it is erroneous to say that 98% of complaints are from people who don't understand market orders. It's more to do with some brokers unscrupulous practice.I personally have no cause for complaint because I dont get slipped by my broker even at the most volatile times; like you said I either get filled or I get a message rejecting the market order saying the price has moved. Now that's fair and I accept it if I am unable to get in before a big spike because the price I clicked on (market order) is no longer available.

It's the unscrupulous brokers out there that slip their clients and fill them at the top of the spike who are the real problem; this has been well documented on the FF factory forums by other traders. Now, not every broker does this and may be it's just a case of looking around for a better broker. I won't name any.

But, I tell you what, when I read some of the other sticky threads above on the subject of brokers, I look with some amusement at the effort by some on FF to reinvent the forex broker as the good guy and the traders as the unrelenting whingers. Now really,
  • #10
  • Oct 11, 2006 7:08am Oct 11, 2006 7:08am
again with:
'people don't understand the market',
'traders do stupid things and then complain',
'traders cant blame themself and always blame the broker'...


With all respect, please stop to 'blame' without any valid reason the poor trader...

The weak into the 'forex casino' are not the brokers, or the 'market'...(which is who moves the prices in real),but are the retail traders with their frustrations.

Yes, please admit that forex is exactly like a casino in las vegas.

Some complains are valid, some are not, and there is a mistake in their form often, thats true : We little traders mistake because we complain about our broker, when in real the problem has to be found a bit higher level then there...

I understand you maybe want to keep the dream of becoming rich with forex up and alive, so all your business around forex will keep working... , but please let the poor frustrated traders complain a bit also

When who 'blames' the traders complains talks, sounds more to listen to somebody which is not trading at all, and just working behind the scene with related forex businesses

cheers
  • #11
  • Oct 11, 2006 7:50am Oct 11, 2006 7:50am
Quoting diallist
99% of the complainers would rather blame the broker than to accept responsibility for their own trading. Interesting how I've never had a single problem. Gee, I wonder what I'm doing wrong?!!

I'm with FX Solutions and have never had a bit of trouble. I might have trouble if I chose to leverage myself at 200:1 with a market order during NFP. If I did that and lost a lot of money, it would be MY FAULT not the broker's fault.

P.S. Disregard the broker complaints that are bound to follow my post.
I agree completely with Dialist on this. I want to blame somebody because I can't be wrong all the time...

But I do have a question maybe Dialist can answer, or anybody really. My only complaint with brokers is during slow times (usually while I am asleep), the price of a pair leads up to and grabs my stop. Then I wake up and the price would've been a profit for me. Now, it is probably just coincidence that this happens, but maybe not. My s/l could be too low, maybe. I understand it can be me in all of this, but my real question is do brokers do this? Search for stops... I don't know the answer, that is why I am asking.

Of course, when it happens to me 3 times in a row, I feel they are doing it. Others had posted to use Metatrader to enter your trades for a s/l and then the brokers can't see it.

Anybody know?
  • #12
  • Oct 11, 2006 10:18am Oct 11, 2006 10:18am
Trucco,

I understood the basis of what you were saying. Allow people to complain...

Like I said, I think constructive criticism is extremely useful. I think it's almost necessary. I wouldn't have known to avoid certain brokers in certain situations without that information...HOWEVER, there IS an extreme that you have to acknowledge. Pure venting is not very helpful because it is an emotional tirade and good traders know where emotions belong (nowhere near your trading). Venting can be easily spotted with warnings like "get all your money out of xyz" or "I swear abc does not want me to win". Those are useless comments. They are the acts of emotional individuals trying to exact their agenda.

Like I said previously, it's better to say things like, "I'm not sure high volatility trading is easy enough or profitable enough with qqq". To the point, and it sounds more professional. What traders like me can't stand is having to introduce countless people in the school of hard knocks as if forex trading is some sort of god-given birth-right. When people like myself have spent many many months perfecting our understanding of the market in order to become profitable and healthy, others seem to want to rely on everything lining up for them...it's almost insulting, actually. Basically, what complainer-complaints are almost always based on is frustration that we've experienced many times before and that those of us who have been able to move past that realize that the complaints are usually unwarranted, meaning that they are a fabrication of the trader's perception. To the affected trader, those complaints are very real, so we don't deny that it's important to seek understanding. However, it is my advice to those traders that the focus should be on other things. You need to be hyper-aware of your surroundings and situation and realize that it IS possible that the CHOICE to even trade with a certain broker in a certain situation IS YOUR FAULT. I'm not saying that it's fair to be stiffled, but forex trading isn't going to be fair...and you have to accept that risk and move on.

I've always said that you have to know what you're getting into at all times...this includes any and ALL risks. Experienced traders understand those risks too...not just the risks of your system, but the risk of your environment. Let's say you're trying to trade at home and your 5-year old daughter comes up to you in the middle of your trading thought and asks you to play with her...you end up being distracted and don't get out in time to make a profit and instead make a $2000 loss. Are you going to scold your daughter???? Now, don't think for a second i'm justifying any broker actions here...but the point is your choices about EVERYTHING can affect your trading. You could have easily packed your bags and went to starbucks where the likely-hood of you being interrupted by your daughter was lower, but you decided to stay home where you COULD be interrupted and you were...The point is, your broker is YOUR choice and perhaps your selection was just bad for that situation. If a broker sucks during high-volatility, use another broker...how hard is that?

Complaints about slippage when people use market orders are unwarranted. If you're "in the know" and didn't want to accept slippage, you would have used a different order type...that's the part of "schooling" that people seem to lack...and that's the type of "schooling" that frustrates long-time traders because it shows how very little people know and are aware of when they get into forex. If you don't know the difference between the order types, then seriously, you aren't ready to be trading. I don't care how long you've traded, if you don't know what your risk is then you have absolutely very little cause for complaint. You can be mad, but you can't really complain.
  • #13
  • Oct 11, 2006 11:07am Oct 11, 2006 11:07am
what we need is a database of brokers that specify their order execution characteristics:

e.g.

 

  1. slip at news [yes/no] [how much... on what news event]
  2. requotes? or always holds order and slips you
  3. terminal freezes
  4. slip on stop losses
  5. slip on entry orders
  6. broker behaviour changes after you have been successful for a while [yes/no]
  7. problems with withdrawals
  8. notes about broker: (e.g. used to be a great broker but they really started slipping big the last few months... maybe it was their bank changing the rules?)
  9. etc.
  10. (I'm sure other people can make a better list)

anti-spam measure: an administrator updates it and only accepts input from people who have had a certain number of posts on FF and are not obviously trying to sell a certain broker.

it is just an idea... but to be effective would have to be updated once in a while since many brokers seem to change their practices over time.

this way people can make up their own mind if the broker is right for them.

I'm not suggesting that it should be hosted at FF (but I'm not suggesting it shouldn't be either)


Quoting PipStar
mrikal, thanks for that insight. The connection with what Merlin says above is that I think it is erroneous to say that 98% of complaints are from people who don't understand market orders. It's more to do with some brokers unscrupulous practice.I personally have no cause for complaint because I dont get slipped by my broker even at the most volatile times; like you said I either get filled or I get a message rejecting the market order saying the price has moved. Now that's fair and I accept it if I am unable to get in before a big spike because the price I clicked on (market order) is no longer available.

It's the unscrupulous brokers out there that slip their clients and fill them at the top of the spike who are the real problem; this has been well documented on the FF factory forums by other traders. Now, not every broker does this and may be it's just a case of looking around for a better broker. I won't name any.

But, I tell you what, when I read some of the other sticky threads above on the subject of brokers, I look with some amusement at the effort by some on FF to reinvent the forex broker as the good guy and the traders as the unrelenting whingers. Now really,
  • #14
  • Last Post: Edited 12:02pm Oct 11, 2006 11:42am | Edited 12:02pm
Quoting mrmikal
Trucco,

I understood the basis of what you were saying. Allow people to complain...

Like I said, I think constructive criticism is extremely useful. I think it's almost necessary. I wouldn't have known to avoid certain brokers in certain situations without that information...HOWEVER, there IS an extreme that you have to acknowledge. Pure venting is not very helpful because it is an emotional tirade and good traders know where emotions belong (nowhere near your trading). Venting can be easily spotted with warnings like "get all your money out of xyz" or "I swear abc does not want me to win". Those are useless comments. They are the acts of emotional individuals trying to exact their agenda.

Like I said previously, it's better to say things like, "I'm not sure high volatility trading is easy enough or profitable enough with qqq". To the point, and it sounds more professional. What traders like me can't stand is having to introduce countless people in the school of hard knocks as if forex trading is some sort of god-given birth-right. When people like myself have spent many many months perfecting our understanding of the market in order to become profitable and healthy, others seem to want to rely on everything lining up for them...it's almost insulting, actually. Basically, what complainer-complaints are almost always based on is frustration that we've experienced many times before and that those of us who have been able to move past that realize that the complaints are usually unwarranted, meaning that they are a fabrication of the trader's perception. To the affected trader, those complaints are very real, so we don't deny that it's important to seek understanding. However, it is my advice to those traders that the focus should be on other things. You need to be hyper-aware of your surroundings and situation and realize that it IS possible that the CHOICE to even trade with a certain broker in a certain situation IS YOUR FAULT. I'm not saying that it's fair to be stiffled, but forex trading isn't going to be fair...and you have to accept that risk and move on.

I've always said that you have to know what you're getting into at all times...this includes any and ALL risks. Experienced traders understand those risks too...not just the risks of your system, but the risk of your environment. Let's say you're trying to trade at home and your 5-year old daughter comes up to you in the middle of your trading thought and asks you to play with her...you end up being distracted and don't get out in time to make a profit and instead make a $2000 loss. Are you going to scold your daughter???? Now, don't think for a second i'm justifying any broker actions here...but the point is your choices about EVERYTHING can affect your trading. You could have easily packed your bags and went to starbucks where the likely-hood of you being interrupted by your daughter was lower, but you decided to stay home where you COULD be interrupted and you were...The point is, your broker is YOUR choice and perhaps your selection was just bad for that situation. If a broker sucks during high-volatility, use another broker...how hard is that?

Complaints about slippage when people use market orders are unwarranted. If you're "in the know" and didn't want to accept slippage, you would have used a different order type...that's the part of "schooling" that people seem to lack...and that's the type of "schooling" that frustrates long-time traders because it shows how very little people know and are aware of when they get into forex. If you don't know the difference between the order types, then seriously, you aren't ready to be trading. I don't care how long you've traded, if you don't know what your risk is then you have absolutely very little cause for complaint. You can be mad, but you can't really complain.
Hi mrmikal,

thanks for answer.
I think we are saying the same thing, indeed I said : some complains are valid, others are not.

I just would like to make notice to those who are always very quick to judge the poor trader, to be a bit more balanced and understand the language of people.
You are now concentrating on this issue about 'volatility orders', but the fact is, that I think that who complains about orders not filled etc etc, is just projecting all in one time his difficulty to understnd what is going on behind trading forex.

Im trading now since 8 months, fortunatly Im profitable, Im not milionaire for sure, and I wonder who is here..but I can be happy of my results, but fact is that Im really tired about how hard is to make good money, and then keep those money, in this incredible crazy 'forex casino' I feel the frustration sometimes, and I feel one of the lukcy, I can immagine how people that also loose money can feel, and I think we are talking about the big majority of traders.

You can call me pessimist, but I think Im just realistic.
Im seriously thinking to stop with trading and keep the money I made, because i feel everyday more that things are tooooo 'manipulated' to make it very hard. Nobody is expecting that 'they' start the big 'trading machine' to give money to everybody, but you know, there is a big difference between : 'making money' a 'possible thing' and 'making money and then keep those' a very very hard thing..
In 8 months I had to adjust to the new market rules at least 5 times...
every 2 months things change.. why ??
we are all stupid and like to shuffle the cards everytime we learned how to play ?
Is more realistic that 'they' shuffle the cards everytime we learn how to play !

I admire those who can make lots of money without frustration (hard to believe, but possible, as there are milions of very cleaver people in the world, even if I dont consider necessarly: forex success=being cleaver), I understand those smart ex-traders who decided to rail in parallel of the traders and sell products around the forex, but at the same time I feel also to support those who loose, which need support (constructive one ofcourse) and need also to see things a bit more in a realistic way

Thanks
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