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Stop Loss or Hedge It?

  • #61
  • Jul 13, 2018 2:57pm Jul 13, 2018 2:57pm
Guys, really?

Same pair Hedge instead of taking a stop.
Open a buy, open a sell.
2 spreads paid.
Net swap at negative (meaning your paying you're broker to keep the trade open).
A losing position that gets bigger as time goes on.
Why do this? There was an old thread about this....

IggyMon described one way to successfully do a same asset hedge which you can take to other asset classes that have these types of differentials everyday.

Buy a stock, buy a put. That's a hedge.
Buy the Eur sell the Gbp. That's a hedge.
Buy the Cad sell some oil.

Hedging is a trading strategy no different from non hedging strategies.
You have to actually have positive expectancy in everything you do when trading. This means you have to test everything. EVERYTHING. Randomly throwing on a same pair hedge just because you don't want to actually take the loss is a terrible idea.

Consider an MSBR.
  • #62
  • Jul 13, 2018 3:08pm Jul 13, 2018 3:08pm
Quoting dukas_trader
{quote} with mini mini money and the broker kicks him out after some time? no broker (such brokers you mentioned, what i never have seen, but i dont use marketmaker broker) will look at such long, because the broker lose then always over time, they are not stupid and no broker can allow his clients to win for sure!! show me someone trades big money (or at least medium money), have such leverage and is not kicked out by brokers very fast! and no fake showing of course, so only bigger real accounts, that demo account will work is for sure, many cheater...
The amount of money isn't important nor should it be.. I took the time to explain to you what would need to ouccr for itto happen and then you respond with a pessimistic view trying to discredit information given to you. The problem is that we are so locked into our bias and our belief system that we shun things we shouldn't big money or small money the fact is that hedging under the circumstances I gave Will work becauze it has been documented. I can assure you this is far from theory.
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  • #63
  • Jul 13, 2018 3:13pm Jul 13, 2018 3:13pm
Quoting LookinGood
Guys, really? Same pair Hedge instead of taking a stop. Open a buy, open a sell. 2 spreads paid. Net swap at negative (meaning your paying you're broker to keep the trade open). A losing position that gets bigger as time goes on. Why do this? There was an old thread about this.... IggyMon described one way to successfully do a same asset hedge which you can take to other asset classes that have these types of differentials everyday. Buy a stock, buy a put. That's a hedge. Buy the Eur sell the Gbp. That's a hedge. Buy the Cad sell some oil....

That would be what most people do, but we all know that in order for the hedge to w ork than correlation would have to work also. We know correlation dpesnt work because correlatuon isnt a 100% certainty. Two different asssets can correlate for 23 hours straight tick for tick and then all of a sudden they move apart. That leaves you worse than you were beforbeforee.
Read my shouts to get myfxbook link
  • #64
  • Jul 13, 2018 3:14pm Jul 13, 2018 3:14pm
Quoting IggyMon
{quote} The amount of money isn't important nor should it be.. I took the time to explain to you what would need to ouccr for itto happen and then you respond with a pessimistic view trying to discredit information given to you. The problem is that we are so locked into our bias and our belief system that we shun things we shouldn't big money or small money the fact is that hedging under the circumstances I gave Will work becauze it has been documented. I can assure you this is far from theory.
it is important, because money won is only what countsn and money won so you can repeat it and can live very good from it and broker dont kick you out.

that some broker allow this documented , only to use this as commercial for this broker to find idiots to believe this shit and later they get their money is funny, but that is what you will seel me as your example? same shit then with arbitrage trading with smaller brokers.... and many many other "cheater" styles where you try to cheat the broker... funyn in demo, possible with very very very little money and broker kicks you out and use you as commercial, rest forget it!

sorry, but i know near any cases what can happen, this from you is standard case any broker know and know how to react..... so bring a better and i believe you....

and by the way. in your example you dont need to hedge, it has nothing to do with hedging! you can simple open one direction each week in 1 account. if you do it long enough it would be same result over time. of course enot in reality, but in your theory.
  • #65
  • Jul 13, 2018 3:42pm Jul 13, 2018 3:42pm
Quoting dukas_trader
{quote} it is important, because money won is only what countsn and money won so you can repeat it and can live very good from it and broker dont kick you out. that some broker allow this documented , only to use this as commercial for this broker to find idiots to believe this shit and later they get their money is funny, but that is what you will seel me as your example? same shit then with arbitrage trading with smaller brokers.... and many many other "cheater" styles where you try to cheat the broker... funyn in demo, possible with very very...
It is good to see I am inspiring you to come up with your own method but if you follow the directions mentioned above it is bulletproof. You have to open a buy and sell and bank on a gap! You want the gap to be well over 40 pips. That will force a negative balance in the losing account. You say it is theory, so i will do it. Two different brokers, two different ip address and names. That alone would simple appear as a guy getting lucky. However if you can flip 2000eur to 8000eur on thag one trade, why not withdraw and do something with it.Your expectations about living off of trading is rather different From mine. I am for % on trades as quick as possible.
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  • #66
  • Jul 13, 2018 3:58pm Jul 13, 2018 3:58pm
Quoting IggyMon
{quote} It is good to see I am inspiring you to come up with your own method but if you follow the directions mentioned above it is bulletproof. You have to open a buy and sell and bank on a gap! You want the gap to be well over 40 pips. That will force a negative balance in the losing account. You say it is theory, so i will do it. Two different brokers, two different ip address and names. That alone would simple appear as a guy getting lucky. However if you can flip 2000eur to 8000eur on thag one trade, why not withdraw and do something with it.Your...
why inspring? this methode is many many many years old and did not even worked in this old days.

you dont see the reality and what happen.

you cant cheat the broker. when you open such a trade with such a leverage at such a broker at the end before the weekend, the broker know what you are doing and will not allow this a long time.
brokers are not stupid (and they see very easy in 1 second that you want cheat them and win from cheating and not trading and you want this broker has to lose because of you), what you mention here was a such basic simple case anyone know allready? we speak hear about total basics, do you know is , or?!

so what you tell here is theory, good luck, but really, first learning basics can help you to save much time with this.
  • #67
  • Edited 4:21pm Jul 13, 2018 4:06pm | Edited 4:21pm
The buy stock buy put and the Eur Gbp mentioned earlier were just an examples of the concept, definitely not suggesting to just do that expecting profits.

Quoting IggyMon
{quote} That would be what most people do, but we all know that in order for the hedge to w ork than correlation would have to work also. We know correlation dpesnt work because correlatuon isnt a 100% certainty. Two different asssets can correlate for 23 hours straight tick for tick and then all of a sudden they move apart. That leaves you worse than you were beforbeforee.
They could also leave you better but what you're saying is still true.

Well, even if the correlation is not 100%, it can still be used as long as you account for those differences.
For instance, EurUsd and GbpUsd are correlated to some degree. Maybe not to the tick but they are correlated. This is why EurGbp is, for the most part, always range bound. Forget about hedging a losing position, it is possible to set up a trading "hedging" strategy with the EurUsd and GbpUsd based on measurements taken from the EurGbp that takes a bit of direction from what you mentioned earlier and what Don Pato mentioned earlier.

All in all, it still requires someone to run the numbers and test it in the markets. One cannot expect a random hedge to just work, which is what i think you're getting at.


@dukas_trader
Also, good point about using 1 account on that trade. If its profitable with both directions then over time it should be profitable in 1. Just gonna take longer.
  • #68
  • Jul 15, 2018 12:00pm Jul 15, 2018 12:00pm
Quoting LookinGood
Guys, really? Same pair Hedge instead of taking a stop. Open a buy, open a sell. 2 spreads paid. Net swap at negative (meaning your paying you're broker to keep the trade open). A losing position that gets bigger as time goes on. Why do this? There was an old thread about this.... IggyMon described one way to successfully do a same asset hedge which you can take to other asset classes that have these types of differentials everyday. Buy a stock, buy a put. That's a hedge. Buy the Eur sell the Gbp. That's a hedge. Buy the Cad sell some oil. Hedging...
Nice, finally seeing someone who actually understand the concept of hedge? Same pair trading with same asset classes wouldn't be described as hedge, but describe as too rich to pay two way. By the way, buying bond also can consider to hedge interest rates if you forgotten this example.
  • #69
  • Jul 15, 2018 12:06pm Jul 15, 2018 12:06pm
Quoting IggyMon
{quote} That would be what most people do, but we all know that in order for the hedge to w ork than correlation would have to work also. We know correlation dpesnt work because correlatuon isnt a 100% certainty. Two different asssets can correlate for 23 hours straight tick for tick and then all of a sudden they move apart. That leaves you worse than you were beforbeforee.
This is because hedgers need to find out which asset classes have more positive expectancy.

For instance like buying Eur in the same time selling some GBP, this means hedger assumes the positive expectancy are more on EUR rather in GBP. In the cases if the hedgers goes wrong, it loses small because he did sold some GBP.
  • #70
  • Jul 15, 2018 12:14pm Jul 15, 2018 12:14pm
Let's take another example. 2 years ago Brexit Vote, some news headlines saying Soros loses big buying GBP. But I don't really see they mentioned that Soros did short SELL on banking shares. It is another example of hedge on Brexit results. If "NO" GBP wouldn't move much because it just remains the same but it is a good news for those Banking Shares. I believe I don't need to explain the results since everybody knew that.
  • #71
  • Jul 16, 2018 4:26am Jul 16, 2018 4:26am
Quoting ChinaTraderz
Let's take another example. 2 years ago Brexit Vote, some news headlines saying Soros loses big buying GBP. But I don't really see they mentioned that Soros did short SELL on banking shares. It is another example of hedge on Brexit results. If "NO" GBP wouldn't move much because it just remains the same but it is a good news for those Banking Shares. I believe I don't need to explain the results since everybody knew that.
Small loss or big loss, hedging doesnt' benefit the trader at all.yes Soros was said to have lost big mone on breexit but not only did they not say how much but if hedge anything else.
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  • #72
  • Jul 16, 2018 8:49am Jul 16, 2018 8:49am
Quoting IggyMon
{quote} Small loss or big loss, hedging doesnt' benefit the trader at all.yes Soros was said to have lost big mone on breexit but not only did they not say how much but if hedge anything else.
Inserted Video


Have you ever have a chance to watch this documentaries? If no, take some time and watch it. Then you might change your mind saying that hedging doesn't benefit trader at all.
  • #73
  • Jul 16, 2018 8:51am Jul 16, 2018 8:51am
By the way, there are couple episode of it. I don't really remember which episode the manager scolded his trader about hedging.
  • #74
  • Jul 16, 2018 8:56am Jul 16, 2018 8:56am
Fully hedging the same pair gives no advantage at all, in fact a stop loss and a hedge position are the same thing you just pay an extra spread
  • #75
  • Jul 17, 2018 6:22am Jul 17, 2018 6:22am
Quoting dukas_trader
{quote} why inspring? this methode is many many many years old and did not even worked in this old days. you dont see the reality and what happen. you cant cheat the broker. when you open such a trade with such a leverage at such a broker at the end before the weekend, the broker know what you are doing and will not allow this a long time. brokers are not stupid (and they see very easy in 1 second that you want cheat them and win from cheating and not trading and you want this broker has to lose because of you), what you mention here was a such...
What is gour fetish with things working in the long time? Not to mention, the broker has set rules in place and !ost brokers allows you to carr y over high keveraged trades into the weekend. Siimply admit you learned somethinf new and you are impressed. Traders likeyou are here to spill negative thoughts because you have failed in trading.
Read my shouts to get myfxbook link
  • #76
  • Jul 17, 2018 6:24am Jul 17, 2018 6:24am
Quoting ChinaTraderz
{quote} https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXno18pOHgo Have you ever have a chance to watch this documentaries? If no, take some time and watch it. Then you might change your mind saying that hedging doesn't benefit trader at all.
we havw already detailed that trading doesnt benefit the trader At All unless it is done the way i recomme ned. Hedging only increases your exposure to the market and makes the broker even more commission. People dont even know that the spread alone can close a hedge.
Read my shouts to get myfxbook link
  • #77
  • Jul 17, 2018 6:31am Jul 17, 2018 6:31am
Quoting IggyMon
{quote} What is gour fetish with things working in the long time? Not to mention, the broker has set rules in place and !ost brokers allows you to carr y over high keveraged trades into the weekend. Siimply admit you learned somethinf new and you are impressed. Traders likeyou are here to spill negative thoughts because you have failed in trading.
i dont understand you, your example was most basic and useless example. of course i know this bullshit already, i know near any of this bullshit and fake trades you can imagine to cheat a broker.

whats the problem with you, you really think this can work, you are a easy to scam person and you really believe brokers dont check this in one second and broker like to get cheated each week?

really, get am man or learn the basics, trading is not for dreamers, you will not have many fun with this style.

that you really think this stupid useless cheating is not known since its beginning shown me, you are in the total beginning of your trading and you want later starting learning real trading. at the moment you are by cheating brokers, when you start to learn how you can trade, ask me again.
  • #78
  • Jul 17, 2018 6:32am Jul 17, 2018 6:32am
Quoting IggyMon
{quote} we havw already detailed that trading doesnt benefit the trader At All unless it is done the way i recomme ned. Hedging only increases your exposure to the market and makes the broker even more commission. People dont even know that the spread alone can close a hedge.
man, you did recommend cheating broker, not trading. at least learn the difference!
and that this will work shows you like dreaming or believe broker like to have losing money and will do it again and again.
  • #79
  • Jul 17, 2018 6:36am Jul 17, 2018 6:36am
Quoting dukas_trader
{quote} i dont understand you, your example was most basic and useless example. of course i know this bullshit already, i know near any of this bullshit and fake trades you can imagine to cheat a broker. whats the problem with you, you really think this can work, you are a easy to scam person and you really believe brokers dont check this in one second and broker like to get cheated each week? really, get am man or learn the basics, trading is not for dreamers, you will not have many fun with this style. that you really think this stupid useless...
you 're issue is you post to post and not to have a constructive conversation. So let me simlly it for you. If youand I are friends and we use two seperate brokers to do the opposite order, meaning i buy all in, yousell all in, and being as we are two different people wit h two different accounts how in the world will they know what we plan to do? #CaseClose
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  • #80
  • Jul 17, 2018 6:41am Jul 17, 2018 6:41am
Quoting IggyMon
{quote} you 're issue is you post to post and not to have a constructive conversation. So let me simlly it for you. If youand I are friends and we use two seperate brokers to do the opposite order, meaning i buy all in, yousell all in, and being as we are two different people wit h two different accounts how in the world will they know what we plan to do? #CaseClose
ok, last post, because you are such a newbie and to lazy to learn the basics, it would need days only to teach you the total basics and thatswhy you stupid questions:

when you open a account with different person, what ever.. all unimportant!
because you dont need 2 accounts , already when you do one trade in 1 account the broker know what you try to do and will not allow this! he only will allow it, when there are extrem spread in end of weekend, or very big by starting weekend, so you lose more then you win....

i dont know how to help you at your extrem low skill level, you try what thousands before tried already, and you are even worse then most, because you think you are so smart that not many did it before and failed..... really, you should learn what works in reality , not in theory when brokers like to lose money for sure (no broker will look at this fact and want lose for sure money..... noone!). think smart not dreamning!

try it and you learn it the hard way!!

and by the way: contructive communication? i showed you, why it cant work, you has only one argument "youtube showed worked (what a joke)", i showed so many arguments against... but you did not check it or because of you dont know trading, brokers and basics you cant understand it... however... difficult to discuss with a person on this level. stop beeing lazy and learn the basics and you will have much better communication, because you understand many things faster.
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