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  • #13,961
  • Edited 3:01am Jun 2, 2018 2:40am | Edited 3:01am
Quoting robgsxr
{quote} No problem, you don't have to agree. I am only stating a fact

Your stating a fact? According to who? Perhaps you need to explain further your original statement instead of being ambiguous about your assertion. To me it is not a fact, and no where in my recent searches have I found anything that supports your statement as being as such! So please indulge me, and tell me why it is a fact that pronunciation is a choice? I am not challenging you, I genuinely want to know how you arrive to such conclusions.
  • #13,962
  • Jun 2, 2018 3:00am Jun 2, 2018 3:00am
Saturday Morning Cinema

"West World" (HBO Series 2017-2018)

The new HBO series "West World" based on the 1973 movie starring Yul Brenner is a fascinating look at AI and the complexities of human interactions with them. The story is based on a theme park built for the elite rich ( a playground for them) who want to role play a fictional character and be immersed in a scenario in which they can perceive as being realistic but control the outcomes of their interactions. Such as realistic sets, characters to interact with etc. We are into season 2 and the writing and story lines explore a myriad of complexities that makes this watching a compelling one, where the viewer is engrossed in finding answers to the mysteries that need solving. It is one guess after another, but slowly piecing together a very strange and complicated puzzle that makes this series apart from all others in the Sci-fi drama genre. It is worth the watch, as you might find yourself provoked to think what the future is going to look like with AI, but also the deeper questions of our own mortality and our ability of conscious thought to take us to places where we have never been before in the pursuit of our own attainment of enlightenment as well as confronting our fears of being over taken by such technology. Very well produced, written and acted and given that HBO doesn't slouch production values to raise the bar for plausibility you are surely not to be disappointed.

https://youtu.be/sjVqDg32_8s
  • #13,963
  • Jun 2, 2018 3:13am Jun 2, 2018 3:13am
Quoting jarhead
{quote} Reagan one of our best -- but ain't never been nutt'in like this man Trump. First time we've ever had a president that was a highly successful, capitalist businessman. He is literally driving the leftist, marxist over the cliff. The coverage (Fox excluded) of Trump and his accomplishments is over 92% negative. His successes are overcoming them. The swamp and it's creatures scared to death. The republicans will increase their majority in November and there is a good possibility Jim Jordan will become speaker of the house and McConnel will...

Well, I really hope you are correct in how this will unfold, however I say cautious optimism is where my current discourse is in view of the political class currently embroiled in these scandals. So far no one is being held accountable for the obvious crimes that have been committed, and yes the deep state is one such animal that proves to be a formidable foe that seeks to protect its own from the venerable prosecution that is ripe for indicting the likes of Brennen, Comey, McCabe, Yates, Hillary, Rice, Rhoads, Jarrett, Kerry, Powers, and many more who were complicit in undermining our constitutional republic. Oh, include Obama on this list as well! He should face prosecution, but reality says that he probably won't given the nature of the "swamp creatures willingness to run out the clock as is their default strategy for self preservation. (Adam Schiff anyone?) What really amazes me that the ones in question who should be put on trial are being rewarded with TV shows, appointments on a board of directors, book contracts or private practice, and making their rounds on national television shows to give spin of blatant lies. It is really bizarre how arrogant these people are while thumbing down the American commoner as being untouchable.
  • #13,964
  • Jun 2, 2018 3:29am Jun 2, 2018 3:29am
Quoting jarhead
{quote} Definitely. Gonna be interesting watching how the NK thing works out.

What is interesting to me, and if you have read Peter Schwiezers Book "Secret empires" I highly recommend it is while the public is focused on Russia, Russia, Russia, maybe a diversion of focusing on the people in our government being influenced by Chinese lobbyists! Schweizer reveals in great detail where people like Ryan, McConnell, Corwin, Corker, and a many others have been bought by Chinese dirty money and undermining America's sovereignty by allowing them to take over national security interests and allowing them easy access to our technology, our land and and our companies. Our country is at risk due to Chinese not only infiltrating our political system, our educational institutions, but the acquisitions of tech companies in order to acquire our technology and commercial real estate holdings.
It is why I am watching the NK deal as well with a healthy dose of skepticism as NK has always been a proxy state for the Communist regime from Beijing and why I am also such a staunch supporter of leaving NAFTA, where the Chinese have been taking advantage of US trade policies for the past 30 years. Also Australia and Canada by far are further along of being controlled by communist China by the same methods of their own greed to sell out their peoples and is the main reason why I believe they need to be stopped from doing the same to America. People say we are entering a trade war when in reality we have been in trade war for the past 30+ years and getting our a$$es handed to us due to our own sell out traitorous leaders whose only sight is that of money and not our national interests.
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  • #13,965
  • Edited 7:24am Jun 2, 2018 3:36am | Edited 7:24am
Quoting DrManhatten
{quote} "No, what we vote for is the party. The leader of the party is elected by the MP's. If 48 letters of no confidence are presented, then there is a leadership challenge, which hopefully is very, very soon! Mogg is the favourite, I think, to replace May." Hmm quite a departure from what I am used to within the American system whereas we vote for the candidate regardless of party, although there are party loyalists within our system but what has been custom in the past that we accept the will of the people and respect the voting...
To be clearer, in the general election we vote for an MP representing a party. The MP then represents that constituency in the Commons. However, most people see the party first then the representative second. The MP has a seat and a parliamentary vote. There are going to be boundary changes (soon?) because at the moment you find that cities like Manchester are carved up into many seats and that greatly favours Labour. After the boundary changes, there is a chance Corbyn could lose his seat. Maybe someone else can elaborate on this? Ex?

Translated, Jacob Rees Mogg is ready to be PM. He has to be seen to be doing a duty, reluctantly.
https://youtu.be/aqY9M02uZO0

I understand that different cultures view things differently. I think the black people/ monkey thing stems from football chants where supporters of an opposing team would throw bananas onto the pitch where there was a black player and they would make monkey noises when he came towards their part of the pitch, all in the spirit of putting him off his game.
  • #13,966
  • Edited 6:27am Jun 2, 2018 3:45am | Edited 6:27am
Quoting DrManhatten
{quote} What is interesting to me, and if you have read Peter Schwiezers Book "Secret empires" I highly recommend it is while the public is focused on Russia, Russia, Russia, maybe a diversion of focusing on the people in our government being influenced by Chinese lobbyists! Schweizer reveals in great detail where people like Ryan, McConnell, Corwin, Corker, and a many others have been bought by Chinese dirty money and undermining America's sovereignty by allowing them to take over national security interests and allowing them easy access to our...
What trade war? You put tariffs on alooo-min-um. We sell you alu-min-I-um

Wasn't Trump going to exempt the UK from tariffs and Juncker blew a fuse? Then I suppose May sucked up to the EU and pissed off Trump. What a complete liability she is.
  • #13,967
  • Edited 7:20am Jun 2, 2018 5:36am | Edited 7:20am
Quoting DrManhatten
{quote} Your stating a fact? According to who? Perhaps you need to explain further your original statement instead of being ambiguous about your assertion. To me it is not a fact, and no where in my recent searches have I found anything that supports your statement as being as such! So please indulge me, and tell me why it is a fact that pronunciation is a choice? I am not challenging you, I genuinely want to know how you arrive to such conclusions.
I shouldn't really have to explain this to someone of your intelligence, I have seen from your posts on here it is exemplary.

I will indulge you with a couple of simple examples and hope you have the eureka moment in the millisecond it should take.
When American actors take on a British role in a film, they will adopt a British accent in the dialect and pronunciation of the part. If they choose (after performing the role) to keep their new found dialect they can forever embed this in their life from that moment.

This applies to any actor of lets call them a "native" of any country taking on a role that requires them to perform in a way that is not their primary "manner of speaking".

This is also the same for any "native" of any country who choses to migrate to a different country. They have a choice just how much effort they put into speaking the new language / dialect and therefore how quickly they mould (or mold ) into this dialect of their new chosen society.


Phew that's a lot of words for me

edit: could have saved myself the effort, Wiki says it so succinctly:

Pronunciation is the way in which a word or a language (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language) is spoken. This may refer to generally agreed-upon sequences of sounds used in speaking a given word or language in a specific dialect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialect) ("correct pronunciation"), or simply the way a particular individual speaks a word or language.
A word can be spoken in different ways by various individuals or groups, depending on many factors, such as: the duration of the cultural exposure of their childhood, the location of their current residence, speech (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speech_disorder) or voice disorders (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_voice_disorders),[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pronunciation#cite_note-1)their ethnic group (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_group), their social class (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class), or their education (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education).

We can choose to learn and use the pronunciation of a different social class,
We can choose to learn and use a different dialect,
We can choose to learn and use a different individual word or langauge.

That's it I'm bored now
  • #13,968
  • Jun 2, 2018 7:42am Jun 2, 2018 7:42am
For general interest:
Just discovered this guy Oswald Mosley. Not sure of the date of the speech but some of it is rather poigniant in today's changing environment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKsegrCXzn4

Just googled him:
Politician of the 20's ad 30's and Max Mosley's father.
  • #13,969
  • Jun 2, 2018 8:31am Jun 2, 2018 8:31am
Quoting robgsxr
{quote} I shouldn't really have to explain this to someone of your intelligence, I have seen from your posts on here it is exemplary. I will indulge you with a couple of simple examples and hope you have the eureka moment in the millisecond it should take. When American actors take on a British role in a film, they will adopt a British accent in the dialect and pronunciation of the part. If they choose (after performing the role) to keep their new found dialect they can forever embed this in their life from that moment. This applies to any actor...
If you're not fluent in a language before the age of 12, then you will always speak it with an accent, no matter how competent you become speaking it.

I wish I was fluent in French. Truth is, sometimes I can get by and sometimes I get all confused and blurt it out in English. Nonetheless, I am probably right to assume I have a pretty horrendous accent. Not my fault.
  • #13,970
  • Jun 2, 2018 8:36am Jun 2, 2018 8:36am
Quoting jen101
{quote} What trade war? You put tariffs on alooo-min-um. We sell you alu-min-I-um Wasn't Trump going to exempt the UK from tariffs and Juncker blew a fuse? Then I suppose May sucked up to the EU and pissed off Trump. What a complete liability she is.
Some figures I have seen: 25% tariff on steel and 10% on aluminium.

Annual steel production:
Germany: 43.6 million metric tonnes, Italy: 24.0, France: 15.5, Spain: 14.5, UK: 7.5. It is unfortunate we are still lumped in with the EU, but it is clear who Trump is targeting.
  • #13,971
  • Jun 2, 2018 9:06am Jun 2, 2018 9:06am
Quoting robgsxr
{quote} I shouldn't really have to explain this to someone of your intelligence, I have seen from your posts on here it is exemplary. I will indulge you with a couple of simple examples and hope you have the eureka moment in the millisecond it should take. When American actors take on a British role in a film, they will adopt a British accent in the dialect and pronunciation of the part. If they choose (after performing the role) to keep their new found dialect they can forever embed this in their life from that moment. This applies to any actor...

Your examples given doesn't support your original assertion about having a choice on how we learn to speak from when we are born.

For example from the time we are born we first learn our language from our parents, thus we don't have a choice. Fact
Secondly, culture has wide influence on how we speak, as we learn we assume the language in which the culture we are part of. We don't choose were we grown up, nor how we communicate with each other as we are growing up. Fact

Remember it was you who sought to correct me, about having a choice when in fact you are wrong in your assertions. The latter examples you provide does not support your original argument to challenge my original premise, only that actors yes can choose to assume a particular role that calls for speaking with a particular accent, and while yes that is a choice, it is still not supportive of the fact that they will eventually revert back to their native and natural way of speaking. If a native french speaker chooses to learn and speak English, he does have that choice, however doesn't mean he will be successful in having perfect pronunciation as he will probably will have some sort of accent while trying to speak English, something that he doesn't have a choice in correcting no matter how hard they will try. The same with cultural differences such as American English and British English in which cultural influences that affect pronunciation and particular dialects is what makes our two languages unique and different. Making fun of how Americans pronounce words is the same as when Americans make fun of Britains when they talk, but one should no try to think that one has the choice to assume another culture in order to speak a certain way, that is on face value snobbish and unrealistic! It is not about choice because that doesn't apply but rather how we learn. Your argument is based on having a choice and by your logic we can also say we can choose anything we want, which seems ambiguous without any scientific analogy to back it up, except you trying to assert an opinion as being fact but what we don't have a choice in is how we grow up and how we learn our native language. Fact!


Below is a link that supports more of what I am trying to articulate and my point.

https://www.telc.net/tr/hakkimizda/guencel/detail/why-do-people-have-different-accents-when-they-speak-english-1.html
  • #13,972
  • Jun 2, 2018 9:26am Jun 2, 2018 9:26am
Quoting jen101
{quote} If you're not fluent in a language before the age of 12, then you will always speak it with an accent, no matter how competent you become speaking it. I wish I was fluent in French. Truth is, sometimes I can get by and sometimes I get all confused and blurt it out in English. Nonetheless, I am probably right to assume I have a pretty horrendous accent. Not my fault.
Accent is a strange thing.
My wife speaks French, Spanish, Italian, English and one other. (Two fewer than her sister who is fluent in German and Chinese also.)
Her english accent is getting better all the time but she still struggles a little with the Grammar then she had a problem with French Grammar and that was her first langauge
  • #13,973
  • Jun 2, 2018 9:37am Jun 2, 2018 9:37am
Quoting DrManhatten
{quote} Your examples given doesn't support your original assertion about having a choice on how we learn to speak from when we are born. For example from the time we are born we first learn our language from our parents, thus we don't have a choice. Fact Secondly, culture has wide influence on how we speak, as we learn we assume the language in which the culture we are part of. We don't choose were we grown up, nor how we communicate with each other as we are growing up. Fact Remember it was you who sought to correct me, about having a choice when...
Two many words for me to read Dr Manhatten.
I got to "you are wrong in your assertions"
Ok I must be wrong because you say so, It appears I was also wrong in my original assessment I had formed of you, hence I apologise twice. I should say apologize also to give a choice to those forced from birth to use.
  • #13,974
  • Jun 2, 2018 10:18am Jun 2, 2018 10:18am
Quoting robgsxr
{quote} Accent is a strange thing. My wife speaks French, Spanish, Italian, English and one other. (Two fewer than her sister who is fluent in German and Chinese also.) Her english accent is getting better all the time but she still struggles a little with the Grammar then she had a problem with French Grammar and that was her first langauge
I do like a French accent. It's one which works well with both men and women.

Anyway, it could be worse. You could be born Glaswegian.
https://youtu.be/6FbTTYsMNIU
  • #13,975
  • Jun 2, 2018 10:30am Jun 2, 2018 10:30am
Quoting jen101
{quote} I do like a French accent. It's one which works well with both men and women. Anyway, it could be worse. You could be born Glaswegian. https://youtu.be/6FbTTYsMNIU
Have you noticed the difference between Parisian French accents and Southern France?
Obviously, we know the differences here in England between North and South and indeed western and eastern regions but I ignorantly hadn't considered that France and presumably most other countries would have similar distinctions.

I must admit it does take me a little while of listening to tune into a broad Scottish accent.
  • #13,976
  • Jun 2, 2018 11:41am Jun 2, 2018 11:41am
Quoting robgsxr
{quote} Have you noticed the difference between Parisian French accents and Southern France? Obviously, we know the differences here in England between North and South and indeed western and eastern regions but I ignorantly hadn't considered that France and presumably most other countries would have similar distinctions. I must admit it does take me a little while of listening to tune into a broad Scottish accent.
I am terrible with accents and also colloquilisms. I have problems understanding much outside normal English, lol. I have a house in Yorkshire rented out and I choose not to speak to the tenants at all, using text and email instead. It's so bad, it's embarrassing. Such as they did call to say "boiler's gone Pete Tong," and I had a problem with a builder who kept saying "our lass," which sounded like "arrless." Obviously I know now what they meant.
  • #13,977
  • Jun 2, 2018 12:25pm Jun 2, 2018 12:25pm
Quoting jen101
{quote} I am terrible with accents and also colloquilisms. I have problems understanding much outside normal English, lol. I have a house in Yorkshire rented out and I choose not to speak to the tenants at all, using text and email instead. It's so bad, it's embarrassing. Such as they did call to say "boiler's gone Pete Tong," and I had a problem with a builder who kept saying "our lass," which sounded like "arrless." Obviously I know now what they meant.
Haha "Normal English".
There is a saying here on the east coast NFN; Normal for Norfolk. I first heard Stephen Fry say it in an interview only a short time ago as he lives somewhere in North Norfolk.
I grew up here from the age of four and I still don't know all of the local cliches, in fact I still struggle to hold a conversation for long with a true local.
They are nice enough people, it's just that the NFN label becomes more obvious the longer you interact with the local populous.
  • #13,978
  • Jun 2, 2018 2:09pm Jun 2, 2018 2:09pm
Quoting robgsxr
{quote} Haha "Normal English". There is a saying here on the east coast NFN; Normal for Norfolk. I first heard Stephen Fry say it in an interview only a short time ago as he lives somewhere in North Norfolk. I grew up here from the age of four and I still don't know all of the local cliches, in fact I still struggle to hold a conversation for long with a true local. They are nice enough people, it's just that the NFN label becomes more obvious the longer you interact with the local populous.
I don't notice an accent in Norfolk... what is it, some carrot munching talk? Well, no one has a problem understanding me. Yup, normal English! Who's going to argue with me? It's all part of being well presented, how you talk, how you walk and look. Opens doors.
  • #13,979
  • Jun 2, 2018 2:28pm Jun 2, 2018 2:28pm
Quoting jen101
{quote} I don't notice an accent in Norfolk... what is it, some carrot munching talk? Well, no one has a problem understanding me. Yup, normal English! Who's going to argue with me? It's all part of being well presented, how you talk, how you walk and look. Opens doors.
That is something else Norfolk folk get called "carrot crunchers" but I thought it was because there was lots of farmland and not much else.
Your explanation sounds more likely .
I'm all for Normal English and yes correct posture and appearance!
It's not so difficult it just requires a person to be conscious of themselves, or take the lazy option and blame our parents, family, upbringing, society, culture, and the list goes on......
This sounds like deja vu for the discussion on here about fatties
  • #13,980
  • Jun 2, 2018 4:37pm Jun 2, 2018 4:37pm
Quoting robgsxr
{quote} That is something else Norfolk folk get called "carrot crunchers" but I thought it was because there was lots of farmland and not much else. Your explanation sounds more likely . I'm all for Normal English and yes correct posture and appearance! It's not so difficult it just requires a person to be conscious of themselves, or take the lazy option and blame our parents, family, upbringing, society, culture, and the list goes on...... This sounds like deja vu for the discussion on here about fatties ...
... like would you hire Vicki Pollard in sales? I'm on my phone, otherwise there would be a picture, purely for the benefit of the Yanks who don't know what I'm talking about.
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