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The Rabbit Hole

  • #13,081
  • Apr 18, 2018 4:23am Apr 18, 2018 4:23am
Quoting jen101
{quote} I never cease to be amazed / horrified when I see fat people eat; the sheer greed! I saw such a thing yesterday. Years ago, my ex sister in law said to me, "it's ok for you, you can eat what you like and not put on weight." I replied, " yes, but what I like to eat is very different to what you like to eat." That didn't go down too well. Hey, is this truth or not, fat people eat too much and move too little? Why on earth are you lot debating truth?
It does seem strange that fat people spend energy and time justifying their "fatness" rather than simply disciplining themselves for a few months and removing all the excess fat they obviously don't need and then simply celebrating their success with a new and healthier lifestyle.

Sorry to be so philosophical about such an easy and obvious issue :-)
  • #13,082
  • Apr 18, 2018 4:31am Apr 18, 2018 4:31am
Quoting jen101
{quote} I should add she was a raging Socialist as well.
You know, that fly by weight thing might have legs. Plenty of room in those double-deckers for a treadmill. Lose a couple of kilos en-route, bit of cashback.
  • #13,083
  • Apr 18, 2018 4:32am Apr 18, 2018 4:32am
Quoting simond2002
{quote} You know, that fly by weight thing might have legs. Plenty of room in those double-deckers for a treadmill. Lose a couple of kilos en-route, bit of cashback.
  • #13,084
  • Apr 18, 2018 4:35am Apr 18, 2018 4:35am
Quoting jen101
{quote} I should add she was a raging Socialist as well.
A lost cause then Jen. Whilst it might be possible to cure her of her lard arse tendencies, there is no cure for her socialism
  • #13,085
  • Apr 18, 2018 4:57am Apr 18, 2018 4:57am
Quoting DrManhatten
{quote} Ahh, you just displayed the typical characteristics of a "Post Modernist", as claiming and believing there is "no such thing as truth". I argue that there indeed is truth but that it is subjective and is only quantitive through consensus, where individually it is interpretative.
Truth cannot by definition be subjective. If it is subjective it is opinion. If truth is quantified by consensus, then it is mob rule. That is how Galileo nearly lost his life.

Quoting robgsxr
{quote} It does seem strange that fat people spend energy and time justifying their "fatness" rather than simply disciplining themselves for a few months and removing all the excess fat they obviously don't need and then simply celebrating their success with a new and healthier lifestyle. Sorry to be so philosophical about such an easy and obvious issue :-)
You must be from the states!
If you are good at something, never do it for free--Joker
  • #13,086
  • Apr 18, 2018 6:57am Apr 18, 2018 6:57am
Quoting simond2002
{quote} I'm not at all well read in Philosophy so I can't comment too much on Lyotard or Rorty. But are you saying that you are in agreement with the statement that, Truth no longer exists?

No I am not in agreement with it, just that the postmodernist philosophers argued that there is no foundation for all knowledge, which is correct, but that doesn't mean that Truth doesn't exist but that it is a matter of context in which Truth is defined, either by consensus or by the individual trying to define truth, and at that point if the latter applies then it is subjective when it is outside of that individual's perception.
  • #13,087
  • Edited 7:32am Apr 18, 2018 7:04am | Edited 7:32am
Quoting jmn5611
{quote} Truth cannot by definition be subjective. If it is subjective it is opinion. If truth is quantified by consensus, then it is mob rule. That is how Galileo nearly lost his life. {quote} You must be from the states!
Yes Truth can be subjective when a certain context of questioning is applied. Please reread my statement, and the meaning of consensus is a broad term, so not sure where you equate what Galileo had stated as it refers to speaking in the present tense, so using the term "Mob Rules" is an exaggerated and cynical example when speaking specifics of today's paradigm. His was an experience of which was unique in the period of time that he lived in, so yes consensus was dangerous then when superstition and the Church was still central in society that wielded much power over such notions that Galileo advocated for. Although I argue that Galileo's stance served a bigger cause to usher in the age of Science and reasoning (epistemology) that eventually marginalized religion as being central to society's thought. Certainly consensus means that we can agree a mountain is mountain, water is water, a Horse is a Horse etc. When one perceives what Truth is, it can not be the same for another whose perception is different from the other therefore it becomes subjective and a matter of opinion. Certainly context in which you use such examples is not correct, but ambiguously generalizing for lack of proper analogy to be used.
  • #13,088
  • Apr 18, 2018 7:09am Apr 18, 2018 7:09am
Quoting jen101
{quote} No, I was being perfectly serious. Yes I know some airlines around the world do a little more and I applaud them for it. I just wonder what will ultimately happen with the US airlines as passengers get even bigger and they're scared of litigation. Someone has to pay and they will be pricing themselves out of the market! Maybe there is a gap in the market for fly by weight. After all, if you don't like it, you don't have to be a customer! Surely it makes sense, if everything else transported is costed by weight, then why not people?
Maybe, then again the typical thing to do which is common with US Airlines, is they just pass that cost onto everyone else, as they would like to avoid such conflicts. The major US Airlines having already been reeling from PR nightmares in recent times, I sense their solutions are just to raise prices across the board in order to be more accommodating to everyone. Such as one size fits all approach. (No pun Intended) Not that I agree with it, but to the larger extent, this is what I would come to expect in a PC climate.
  • #13,089
  • Edited 7:54am Apr 18, 2018 7:25am | Edited 7:54am
Quoting jmn5611
{quote} Truth cannot by definition be subjective. If it is subjective it is opinion. If truth is quantified by consensus, then it is mob rule. That is how Galileo nearly lost his life. {quote} You must be from the states!
You must be from the states!


I am in the UK but wherever I have lived I have kinda always known the simplicity of eat too much and do to little to burn up those calories equates to putting on excess weight :-)
The trouble is it is not just the fat that is visible to the outside world but the fat attaching itself to organs and fat storage areas in the body that overweight people don't seem to understand or want to acknowledge.
We are making lite of the subject here but I genuinely would like more people to get it and reverse their situation before any self harm is done to them.

To be clear I have also lived in the states.. but this changes little in my opinions.
  • #13,090
  • Apr 18, 2018 7:41am Apr 18, 2018 7:41am
Quoting DrManhatten
{quote} Yes Truth can be subjective when a certain context of questioning is applied. Please reread my statement, and the meaning of consensus is a broad term, so not sure where you equate what Galileo had stated as it refers to speaking in the present tense, so using the term "Mob Rules" is an exaggerated and cynical example when speaking specifics of today's paradigm. His was an experience of which was unique in the period of time that he lived in, so yes consensus was dangerous then when superstition and the Church was still central in society...
You argue that we can all agree that a mountain is a mountain and a horse is horse. What we as humans can never agree on is what mountain and horse are there to do. I wound reiterate that beyond the objective lies the subjective and within the subjective there is no such thing as "truth". Everyone's truth is defined by their life experiences. Here in the USA we have an entire voting bloc of superstitious people called Evangelicals. The Church is still very much in our political business despite the efforts of our founders to not make it so.

Quoting DrManhatten
{quote} Maybe, then again the typical thing to do which is common with US Airlines, is they just pass that cost onto everyone else, as they would like to avoid such conflicts. The major US Airlines having already been reeling from PR nightmares in recent times, I sense their solutions are just to raise prices across the board in order to be more accommodating to everyone. Such as one size fits all approach. (No pun Intended) Not that I agree with it, but to the larger extent, this is what I would come to expect in a PC climate.
I agree completely with jen on this one, but I know it will never happen. At least not the US carriers. They already have a phrase for criticizing the obese, it is called "fat shaming". In some parts of the female culture here it is a virtue to have a big butt. Of course everything else gets big with it. So there you go.

Quoting DrManhatten
{quote} No I am not in agreement with it, just that the postmodernist philosophers argued that there is no foundation for all knowledge, which is correct, but that doesn't mean that Truth doesn't exist but that it is a matter of context in which Truth is defined, either by consensus or by the individual trying to define truth, and at that point if the latter applies then it is subjective when it is outside of that individual's perception.
Isn't context by definition subjective? If the edifice of truth is based on context, how can truth be universal?

Quoting simond2002
{quote} Indeed, the truth is what the group says it is, which as you quite rightly pointed out with your Socrates example, leaves the person with a choice. Which way does one go? It's a rhetorical question but in fact one unintentionally studied in the more contemporary Mark Lane's JFK Assassination film, "Rush To Judgment". The outcome of his interviews with Sam Holland and Orville Nix are an enlightening example of both sides of the effect of crowd behaviour on the individual.
I missed this post somehow. The individual has been shown to do things in crowds that they would never do individually. We as humans are also beholden to authority. Are you aware of the test where people were told to shock other people? There is also the thought that IQ drops in crowds.

"Men go crazy in congregations, they only get better one by one"--Sting.

Quoting jen101
{quote} I never cease to be amazed / horrified when I see fat people eat; the sheer greed! I saw such a thing yesterday. Years ago, my ex sister in law said to me, "it's ok for you, you can eat what you like and not put on weight." I replied, " yes, but what I like to eat is very different to what you like to eat." That didn't go down too well. Hey, is this truth or not, fat people eat too much and move too little? Why on earth are you lot debating truth?
Technically, there are thyroid conditions that will drive down the metabolism, there are also medications that will precipitate weight gain.
If you are good at something, never do it for free--Joker
  • #13,091
  • Apr 18, 2018 8:12am Apr 18, 2018 8:12am
Quoting jmn5611
Technically, there are thyroid conditions that will drive down the metabolism, there are also medications that will precipitate weight gain.
Which causes two thirds of the population to be overweight or obese and strangely enough you did not see during the wartime Britain? I guess they can blame big bones or their genes too. Or slow metabolism. But... fat people actually have a higher metabolism - fact. Hmm.
  • #13,092
  • Apr 18, 2018 8:12am Apr 18, 2018 8:12am
Quoting DrManhatten
{quote} No I am not in agreement with it, just that the postmodernist philosophers argued that there is no foundation for all knowledge, which is correct, but that doesn't mean that Truth doesn't exist but that it is a matter of context in which Truth is defined, either by consensus or by the individual trying to define truth, and at that point if the latter applies then it is subjective when it is outside of that individual's perception.
OK I see what you mean. I would add that if the collective "we" were to accept the dictionary definition of truth being something that goes in accordance with facts then I think in human terms there is a form of absolute truth. Not quite the same as saying, That doesn't mean that truth doesn't exist, but near enough I guess.
  • #13,093
  • Apr 18, 2018 8:17am Apr 18, 2018 8:17am
Quoting DrManhatten
{quote} Maybe, then again the typical thing to do which is common with US Airlines, is they just pass that cost onto everyone else, as they would like to avoid such conflicts. The major US Airlines having already been reeling from PR nightmares in recent times, I sense their solutions are just to raise prices across the board in order to be more accommodating to everyone. Such as one size fits all approach. (No pun Intended) Not that I agree with it, but to the larger extent, this is what I would come to expect in a PC climate.
Passing that cost onto everyone else, yes. That's what I meant when I said pricing themselves out if the market, because those costs are only going to rise! Now what if someone came along and broke that mould? Competition. Pay by weight. Then who would pay for the lardies?
  • #13,094
  • Apr 18, 2018 8:25am Apr 18, 2018 8:25am
Quoting simond2002
{quote} You know, that fly by weight thing might have legs. Plenty of room in those double-deckers for a treadmill. Lose a couple of kilos en-route, bit of cashback.
Being overweight causes a huge amount of joint problems. It messes with the natural biomechanics. I guess it's a downward spiral once you get fat so you just end up even fatter going around in a mobility scooter.
https://youtu.be/yGNTHxHhCiE
  • #13,095
  • Apr 18, 2018 8:32am Apr 18, 2018 8:32am
Quoting jen101
{quote} Which causes two thirds of the population to be overweight or obese and strangely enough you did not see during the wartime Britain? I guess they can blame big bones or their genes too. Or slow metabolism. But... fat people actually have a higher metabolism - fact. Hmm.
I don't know about two thirds of your pop. But two thirds of our pop just eat waaaay too much. A lot of our products are also laced with sugar, which spikes the insulin, when it falls we feel hungry and off to Burger King we go!
If you are good at something, never do it for free--Joker
  • #13,096
  • Apr 18, 2018 8:46am Apr 18, 2018 8:46am
Quoting jen101
{quote} Which causes two thirds of the population to be overweight or obese and strangely enough you did not see during the wartime Britain? I guess they can blame big bones or their genes too. Or slow metabolism. But... fat people actually have a higher metabolism - fact. Hmm.
I have said this before about an old golfing buddies wife. Her favourite saying was " there were no fat people in the war camps"
And unless we have evolved in the space of a few decades I would suggest some of those poor prisoners also had some thyroid problems / big bones / genetic susceptibility to "fatness" and yet they were still underweight like the rest of the prisoners who were all eating the same amounts.

excuses for being overweight are exactly that, excuses.
  • #13,097
  • Apr 18, 2018 8:50am Apr 18, 2018 8:50am
Quoting jmn5611
{quote} I don't know about two thirds of your pop. But two thirds of our pop just eat waaaay too much. A lot of our products are also laced with sugar, which spikes the insulin, when it falls we feel hungry and off to Burger King we go!
Or maybe they could replace the Burger King with an apple or perhaps a high calorific pear instead.
As I said it does require a lifestyle change.
  • #13,098
  • Apr 18, 2018 9:09am Apr 18, 2018 9:09am
Quoting jmn5611
{quote} Technically, there are thyroid conditions that will drive down the metabolism, there are also medications that will precipitate weight gain.
That is a crap excuse. I suffer with the thyroid problem and the answer is not to stuff your mouth with more food than your body needs, coupled with exercise
  • #13,099
  • Apr 18, 2018 9:09am Apr 18, 2018 9:09am
Quoting jmn5611
{quote} I don't know about two thirds of your pop. But two thirds of our pop just eat waaaay too much. A lot of our products are also laced with sugar, which spikes the insulin, when it falls we feel hungry and off to Burger King we go!
Could it be driven further by the snowflake mentality? A lot of overeating is emotionally driven and so is Socialism. Are the butt hurt types (plenty of them) fat Socialists?
  • #13,100
  • Apr 18, 2018 9:23am Apr 18, 2018 9:23am
Quoting jmn5611
I missed this post somehow. The individual has been shown to do things in crowds that they would never do individually. We as humans are also beholden to authority. Are you aware of the test where people were told to shock other people? There is also the thought that IQ drops in crowds.
It seems you may have missed a number of my other posts but it doesn't matter. Let's move this discussion away from truth for a minute and discuss facts.

For the sake of context I'll assume you haven't watched Sam Holland's or Orville Nix's JFK interviews. Briefly, Holland remained adamant that he had heard at least one gunshot and seen gun smoke from the infamous picket fence. As far as Holland was concerned this was a fact and Nix's original statement corroborated it. Nevertheless, after the Warren Commission Nix changed his testimony altogether while Holland didn't bow to authority and remained true to his original statement. If Holland's statement is a fact and there was a second shooter then what does this say about the lone gunman story?

I'm sure you're aware that the term "Conspiracy Theory" was coined during the JFK investigation in order to discredit the facts as witnesses bore them out. It's a weaponised phrase still targeted at people who point out facts that contradict the mainstream narrative. You're evidently a person who's comfortable using this phrase. But you're also comfortable using other phrases like, You're a Nazi, You're a racist, and, You're an anti-semite. I wonder, what side of the Warren Commission would you be on if it were a contemporaneous matter being discussed today?
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