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  • Post #1
  • Quote
  • First Post: Nov 8, 2006 12:11pm Nov 8, 2006 12:11pm
I need some help.

This is what my live 1 minute chart looks like for 11-07-06, between the 19:00 and 20:00 hours.

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g2...nzdjpy1min.jpg


Can anyone else trading IBFX confirm this spike or show a difference on their live platforms?


Thanks in advance.

ken
Is your SL my TP?
Sorry... I forgot to say which pair-


NZDJPY.

Thanks again.
Is your SL my TP?
I have the same spike. I checked my other broker accounts, but, I do not have that pair in the others. Sorry.
this happens with interbank, also there will sometimes be a data gap from 20-50 pips randomly. It sucks but instead of complaining I just moved to higher time frames. 30 minutes is as low as I trade on interbank.
Quoting stockwet
I have the same spike. I checked my other broker accounts, but, I do not have that pair in the others. Sorry.
Thanks Stockwet. I think what I'll just do is submit the evidence I've got and let folk make up their own minds.

Yesterday I was in a trade - 4 positions for NZDJPY most of the day. It was going south of my long positon at 79.07, admittedly...most of the day.

In the afternoon hours (CST) the pair started to go upward toward my position again. When it broke 79.00, about twenty minutes or so before 20:00 (GMT -2- IBFX time on the charts) I moved my stops up to 78.80.

A few minutes later there was a huge spike (note, there was no NZ or JPY news yesterday at all) and the price plunged immediately to 78.79- one pip below my stops...making every trade disappear from my screen, just before immediately re-ascending back towards my initial entry (nearly as fast as it plummetted).

I checked against two other charts (there are very few NZD/JPY charting providers out there!) and niether was near 78.79 for that timeframe.

I had two online chat sessions with IBFX customer service rep. "Darrell". In the first conversation he told me that the low bid price on the one hour bar for 19:00 was 78.88. You can see the entire conversation here.

Bottom line was that yesterday they claimed the 19:00 and 20:00 bars "overlapped"...and even though my account history shows I was stopped out at 19:59, the actual transaction happened in the 20:00 bar. Here's a screenshot of my account history:

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g2...stoplosses.jpg

Only problem is, that today I chatted with Darrell again and he reaffirmed that my stoploss was after the 19:00 hour, and then proceeded to send me a screenshot of "his chart", this time on the fifteen minute timeframe, which showed the actual spike indeed allegedley occured during the 19:00 timeframe.

Here's the transcript of today's chat:
<TABLE dir=ltr cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=5 width="100%" border=1><TBODY><TR><TD class=table_m4 colSpan=2>General Info




</TD></TR><TR><TD>Chat start time</TD><TD>Nov 8, 2006 11:01:50 AM EST</TD></TR><TR><TD>Chat end time</TD><TD>Nov 8, 2006 11:29:31 AM EST</TD></TR><TR><TD>Duration (actual chatting time)</TD><TD>00:27:41</TD></TR><TR><TD>Operator</TD><TD>Client Services</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


<TABLE dir=ltr cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=5 width="100%" border=1><TBODY><TR><TD class=table_m4>Chat Transcript




</TD></TR><TR><TD>info: Thank you for contacting us. The next available agent will be right with you. Our goal is quality service. You may tell us how we do today by clicking HERE.


info: You are now chatting with 'Client Services'
Client Services: Hello, my name is Darrell, How may I help you?
you: Darrell...
you: Nice to talk to you again.
Client Services: thank you
you: We spoke yesterday about my stop losses which were taken out on the 19:00 hour bar
Client Services: yes
Client Services: I remember 20:00
you: you claimed that they were actually taken out at the 20:00 hour bar
you: correct
Client Services: Yes, that is correct
you: would you please open the 20:00 bar on the 15 minute chart and tell me what you see for the low bid for that bar?
you: here's what I see... http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g2...o/nzpjpy15.jpg
Client Services: It see a low of 78.79, below your stop loss
Client Services: On my 15 minute chart
you: why do you see something different than what is on MY chart?
Client Services: Perhaps your charts are corrupted
you: you see my chart, right?
you: funny...my charts are corrupted, fxstreet's charts are corrupted, yahoo's charts are corrupted...only YOU have the correct charts, eh?
Client Services: When your orders closed the spread was 10 pips apart
Client Services: 78.80/90
Client Services: It does not change the fact by what I see or what you see on your chart, both are lower then your stop loss
Client Services: and therefore you got stopped out
Client Services: I'm terribly sorry
you: show me your chart...send me a screenshot of your 15 minute bar at 20:00
Client Services: Sure, I'd be happy to do that, what e-mail addres would you like it sent to
you: [email protected]
Client Services: one moment please
you: the time is 10:13 am. CST
Client Services: It just went out for you
you: okay.
you: you have a little conflict, here.
Client Services: I believe it is the numbers I quoted you today and yesterday
you: yesterday, (and yes I have the transcript), you started at the beginning of our conversation claiming that the LOW BID for the 19:00 hour bar was 78.88
you: but the screenshot you've sent me shows the low of the 19:45 (15min) bar being 78.79
Client Services: Yes, as you will recall you asked me for a 1 hour time frame
Client Services: the 1 hour time frame ends at 19:59
Client Services: therefore the numbers are correct
you: and the 20:00 fifteen minute bar on YOUR screenshot shows it ABOVE my stop
you: why did you give me a different low for the 19:00 bar than what is actually on your screenshot?
you: think fast...
Client Services: Sir, As I and my supervisor went over the number, we concluded you were stopped out
you: you didn't answer my question
you: YOU CONCLUDED...how very convienient for YOU
Client Services: If you would like to appeal this decision , you are welcome to call in and ask for Robert Jarmin and he will re-review your trades for you
Client Services: I'm terribly sorry
you: phone number please?
Client Services: Do you need our toll free number
you: No, I have it.
Client Services: 1-866.468.3739
Client Services: great
you: Thanks for being such a "straight-shooter", Darrell...you give me every confidence in IBFX
you: and no...IBFX hasn't heard the end of this
Client Services: You are very welcome
Client Services: have a great trading day

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


In the next posts I will include screenshots of charts showing FXStreet's prices during the same time period, as well as Darrell's fifteen minute chart, which effectively makes him...shall we say...contradictory?
Is your SL my TP?
Here's Darrell's chart.



http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g2...arrellcopy.jpg

Here is what fxstreet shows for the same hour...their time frame is -4 from IBFX's.

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g2...streetcopy.jpg
Is your SL my TP?
Also, I talked to Robert Jarmin, as recommended by Darrell.
On my first attempt the person who answered asked who was calling for Mr. Jarmin, I gave my name and was hung up on. Delibrately? I don't know...but on my second attempt I got through and Mr. Jarmin was already familiar with who I was because he was the "supervisor" that Darrell "concluded" with.

What it came down to basically is that it really didn't matter what the charts said, that they conflicted with the customer service rep's initial information...that they dodged and skirted and changed the subject many times, the problem, according to Mr. Jarmin, was that I was in a bad trade, I was too emotional, that I was a conspiracy theorist...blah blah.

As for being emotional...the money in my trading account is "what I can afford to lose". If the whole account was blown it would be a bummer but I wouldn't be emotional about it.

As far as being in a bad trade- at the time the spike happened I was within five pips of break-even on my worst position (other positions were in profit, but barely). From my end...the trade looked promising. I didn't know, and they didn't know where the price was heading from the time I was stopped out (or did they?)

As far as conspiracy theories...well...I must admit that Stockwet's backing up of the chart information might make it look as though it happened across the board...but I'm willing to bet it only happened across IBFX's board.

How big does anyone think this broker is? I've gone to their online chat three times in the past two days. Guess who the customer rep. was each time? Yep, Darrell. Think a big company can field all of there service problems online with just one rep?

How many clients of this big company does anyone suppose is trading an exotic currency pair like New Zealand Dollar vs. Japanese Yen? And of those, how many would notice or be affected by a 1 second spike in the middle of the day?

Just some thoughts.
Is your SL my TP?
I have checked the price action at another broker (IG markets), indeed that time the price dip very quickly and reach a low of 78.84 around Nov 7 19.59. I suspect due to IBFX widening spreads ( I saw GBP/USD widen to 9 pips in asia hour no news nothing happening）, it it possible that NZD/JPY spreads widen to maybe 10pips and reached your stop loss point.
Quoting fxfei
I have checked the price action at another broker (IG markets), indeed that time the price dip very quickly and reach a low of 78.84 around Nov 7 19.59. I suspect due to IBFX widening spreads ( I saw GBP/USD widen to 9 pips in asia hour no news nothing happening）, it it possible that NZD/JPY spreads widen to maybe 10pips and reached your stop loss point.
I'd be really interested in seeing a screenshot of your chart. I haven't seen anything close to this from any other brokers yet...which is why I'm not putting this to rest. If you could post one it would ease the conspiracy theorist in me. :
Is your SL my TP?
At 20:00 high was 79.02 and low was 78.81 on VTrader.
Quoting richx7
At 20:00 high was 79.02 and low was 78.81 on VTrader.
Thanks richx7. The IBFX folk were just spinning a yarn by saying my trade happened on the 20:00 bar because I caught 'em with their pants down. My stoplosses were hit on the 19:00 bar (overlapping candles my foot!).

The low bid price for the 19:00 (GMT) bar is the really important info I'm looking for.


peace

ken
Is your SL my TP?
I need to add, that since they initially claimed the sl's hit at the very last minute on the 19:00, and supposably therefore "showed up" on the 20:00 hourly bar...that to really prove how absurd their claim is, it would be best to find the low bid price at the 20:00 mark on the 15 minute chart- any broker. And low of the previous 19:45 bar will further cement it.


I'll bet my eye teeth there is no less than a ten pip difference on either of those fifteen minute bars from where they claim my stoplosses were taken.
Is your SL my TP?
Hey kenmania,

One thing that you may not be considering is that it wasn't IBFX that hunted you, but, rather, the banks produced a stopout move or a "foreshadowing" move. The price action, after that move, held a bit and then dropped. I've seen a LOT of instances where there's a spike that foreshadows the coming move. This can trigger stop orders to fuel a desired move.

Also, it looks like the price action moved to that level anyway - and only about 30 minutes later.

Now, I'm no fan of IBFX - I think they're a mediocre broker (yes, I've used them live.) But, I also don't see this as a clear stop hunt. And, even if it was a stop hunt, it seems a little irrelevant since less than 30 minutes later you would have been stopped out anyway on the actual move.

Right now, I realize you're angry and suspicious and you probably lost a lot of money. The anger is not going to either get you your money back nor will it help you trade better in the coming days.

Sorry for the tough love, bro.

stockwet
Quoting stockwet
Hey kenmania,

One thing that you may not be considering is that it wasn't IBFX that hunted you, but, rather, the banks produced a stopout move or a "foreshadowing" move. The price action, after that move, held a bit and then dropped. I've seen a LOT of instances where there's a spike that foreshadows the coming move. This can trigger stop orders to fuel a desired move.
This is interesting, thanks for the insight.

Quoting stockwet
And, even if it was a stop hunt, it seems a little irrelevant since less than 30 minutes later you would have been stopped out anyway on the actual move.
That was basically Mr. Jarmin's point when we spoke on the phone. I realize the trade would have gone against me anyway...but the principal of the thing was that if my stops were hunted, I wanted it out so that I would know what kind of outfit I was dealing with.

Quoting stockwet
Right now, I realize you're angry and suspicious and you probably lost a lot of money. The anger is not going to either get you your money back nor will it help you trade better in the coming days.
Mr. Jarmin assessed that I was an emotional trader. Had the trades gone out on a more normal progression (if there is normal in forex), it wouldn't have upset me. I think anyone would be asking these questions if they watched their trades pop off the screen within a millisecond from being in a position 20+ pips above the stops, then to find no other charting services to concur with the move...you have to admit it leaves room for the questions. I have no problem accepting the risks inherent to trading, I'm just not willing to accept stop hunting as being inclusive in those risks.

However, I would like nothing better than to move on- which is what I'm about to do...and I agree that holding on to anger won't do me a bit of good...in trading or otherwise.

Quoting stockwet
Sorry for the tough love, bro.
Don't apologize. I'll take love...tough or otherwise.
Is your SL my TP?
Time to eat my humble pie.

I opened a demo on fxfei's broker, IG Markets and looked up their chart for my time in question. Here it is.

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g2...ro/IGNZJPY.jpg

There was indeed a spike at least somewhere in the market, very close to the time of my stops being hit and within 5 pips of the price.

My bad for not giving IBFX the plain benefit of the doubt.
My bad for even making a deal out of it.
Sorry for the wasted bandwith.

I've chatted again with Darrell and he accepted my apologies, and I left a voicemail with Mr. Jarmin explaining my findings with apologies also.

Also, I stated on another thread that I was closing my IBFX account as of that day. It didn't happen because my printer wasn't working properly to print the withdrawal request form.

Just making it known now that I do not intend to close my account with IBFX.

I'll step back and take a deeper breath if this ever happens again.

Thanks fxfei for tipping me about the IG chart.


ken
Is your SL my TP?
Just some thoughts...

kenmania glad that you're able to move on. Don't really find that your situation is too clearcut simply because that you'd have been stopped out at a later time and it also would have been a tad difficult to argue that you would have closed you positions whilst it was not profitable.

However on the other hand, not quite sure what seeing the chart from ig markets will really prove. What if there was stop hunting over there too? Disclaimer: not saying that they do, just hypothetically speaking for the sake of discussion.

Also to document stop hunting sometimes a lot of effort may be required. Do a search on stockwet's thread on stop hunting. Comparing amongst dealing desk type brokers may not suffice and preferably quotes from an ecn type broker will be more useful.
Quoting stockwet
Hey kenmania,

One thing that you may not be considering is that it wasn't IBFX that hunted you, but, rather, the banks produced a stopout move or a "foreshadowing" move. The price action, after that move, held a bit and then dropped. I've seen a LOT of instances where there's a spike that foreshadows the coming move. This can trigger stop orders to fuel a desired move.

Also, it looks like the price action moved to that level anyway - and only about 30 minutes later.

Now, I'm no fan of IBFX - I think they're a mediocre broker (yes, I've used them live.) But, I also don't see this as a clear stop hunt. And, even if it was a stop hunt, it seems a little irrelevant since less than 30 minutes later you would have been stopped out anyway on the actual move.

Right now, I realize you're angry and suspicious and you probably lost a lot of money. The anger is not going to either get you your money back nor will it help you trade better in the coming days.

Sorry for the tough love, bro.

stockwet
Which broker are you using now? I am still deciding between GFT Vs FXsol Vs IBFX (coz they have metatrader4 on a mobile PDA OS - Windowns mobile).

GFT - didnt quite get used to its platform.
FXsol - like the platform but was looking for a broker tt can offer me a mobile platform as well (used on a PDA/smart phone)

FYI, i dun play on news. So just need a decent broker will do with good network connection and tight spread during trading.
  • Post #18
  • Quote
  • Edited at 8:51pm Nov 10, 2006 8:38pm | Edited at 8:51pm
Quoting zmanc
Just some thoughts...

kenmania glad that you're able to move on. Don't really find that your situation is too clearcut simply because that you'd have been stopped out at a later time and it also would have been a tad difficult to argue that you would have closed you positions whilst it was not profitable.

However on the other hand, not quite sure what seeing the chart from ig markets will really prove. What if there was stop hunting over there too? Disclaimer: not saying that they do, just hypothetically speaking for the sake of discussion.

Also to document stop hunting sometimes a lot of effort may be required. Do a search on stockwet's thread on stop hunting. Comparing amongst dealing desk type brokers may not suffice and preferably quotes from an ecn type broker will be more useful.
Hi zmanc,

Yes, I agree that I had a moot point if my only goal was to recover my lost funds. My position sucked that whole day and without a doubt being stopped out was imminent.

The burr under my saddle was that if the stop was hunted, regardless whether it was a sour trade or not...what kind of broker was I dealing with here? And do I just move on and with every trade have this lingering fear of setting any kind of stop? Do I just move to another broker and not let anyone else in on the fact that I might have just been ripped off?

Actually I did send a request for NFA to investigate the incident a couple of days ago. I received the reply from them today requesting more information and I responded by explaining about finding the chart from IG and I was ready to drop the matter, provided that there was no type of relationship between IG and IBFX, i.e. shared feeds or whatever.

I do agree that comparing charts with an ECN brokerage would be more reliable in finding if a spike really did happen.

Just as an aside...I traded cable both yesterday and today- because I had to go to work in the evening times, I left my trades open each day, with a five pip (the minum) stop set just to see what would happen. On both days, the trades came within 1 pip of my stop, turned and went my direction for 20 and 30 pip profits. This has gone a long way toward helping me "move on" (and toward recovering my losses ).
Is your SL my TP?
IBFX has been widening the spreads to ridiculous levels even on normal market condition (ie, no news).

GBPJPY has been increased to 11 pips most of the time.
GBPUSD has been increased to 5 pips most of the time.
USDJPY has been increased to 3 pips most of the time.
Quoting BurgerKing
IBFX has been widening the spreads to ridiculous levels even on normal market condition (ie, no news).

GBPJPY has been increased to 11 pips most of the time.
GBPUSD has been increased to 5 pips most of the time.
USDJPY has been increased to 3 pips most of the time.
We each have our own threshold as to where ridiculous levels began. I'd love a 1 pip spread but I'll accept a 3 pip spread anytime on USDJPY.
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