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  • First Post: Jan 14, 2009 4:56pm Jan 14, 2009 4:56pm
I thought it might be interesting to see just how many people over here at FF are following/using, standard or modified versions of Joel's (aka TRT) methods.
I have been following both since October last year, only demo at the moment, and no mods on my end, just trying to keep it as simple as possible, and conservative, only risking 1% of my account balance per trade, i have made mistakes along the way, missed trades, miscalculated trades and such, but it is all a learning proccess.
I do feel that since i started following this method i have become more patient, trading on a weekly basis certainly has its advantages.
i find the hardest thing to do consistantly is keep good records, i am hopeless at that.
I am continually trying to perfect a spreadsheet that will workout my trade levels as well as record my trades.
I am enjoying my journey so far and am committed to continue with it to the end!!!!! which brings up another interesting point, just where is the end, with these strategies, just where does it end, where does one decide well i would like to use some of those lovely profits i have made, and to what detriment will it be to the journey to $100,000 in ten years?
Anyway enough of my rambleings, bring on the posters, hopefully people will put there hand up.
cheers
Geoff
BTW, Im in australia on the east coast(N.S.W), be interesting to know just how many other ozzies are using this.
Quoting geoffrod
It is really interesting that you mention trading your version on a daily basis, i have been thinking about this myself just recently, would you care to elaborate on the way you might implement it, if not no problem, i would be curious is all.
cheers
Geoff
Hi Geoff,

Thanks for opening up that thread. I will reply on above question tomorrow. Itīs getting late here in Germany . Hope you donīt mind.

Cheers
Dave
No Problem at all dave
cheers
geoff
I have followed Joel's thread off and on, and his posted results were impressive. I was looking for an EA that would cancel an open trade when the opposite was opened, and couldn't find one. I got burned one night while asleep and both orders opened and both hit the stops. I vowed to not let that happen again.
Quoting paradoxical
I have followed Joel's thread off and on, and his posted results were impressive. I was looking for an EA that would cancel an open trade when the opposite was opened, and couldn't find one. I got burned one night while asleep and both orders opened and both hit the stops. I vowed to not let that happen again.
Hi Paradoxical,
It isn't nice when things dont go as planned thats for sure, but i dont recall ever having this happen to me, i guess i might have been lucky to have been around when taken into a trade so as to cancel the other side, but a lot of the time i am asleep when i am taken into trades, and when i get to work and check my account i cancel the others, but because of the low % risk per trade, it isn't like it is going to cost a lot, for me that is, if things went pear shaped.but i guess if you have a large account 1 or 2% might be a great deal.
There are trading platforms which send out sms messages to let you know when price gets to a certain level, i have used that before, maybe this is an option?
cheers
geoff
geoff, that may have come off wrong. I actually liked this method, and want to learn more about it. So, I'm glad you started the thread. There's a similar system with tighter stops, and that's where I lost the very first trade when both were hit at about a hundred each. Someone said an EA could be made to OCO, but I haven't seen one yet. I agree with the premise of this method, and would like to see others join in on the discussion.
People like Joel's methods because they are simple.

This does not make them profitable.

The minute I saw those pretty graphs (about 10 months ago) I wrote EAs for both systems. The results were plain crappy using M1 data.

I suspect Joel does not have M1 data, so his lowest timeframe confuses the backtester, and it gives erroneous fills to create those equity curves.

These are very easy systems to write programs for, and you can do your own research to discover their "predictive power."
There goes Tdion again. Tdion...what do you do? Lurk around looking for systems to diss? But, in all seriousness, Tdion, FF needs someone like you to expose the fallacies in systems. Joel was posting actual results for quite a few months. No back testing involved. Are you saying a system that once worked extraordinarily well doesn't work anymore? I don't know. I merely perused his website, and it looked good to me.
Quoting tdion
People like Joel's methods because they are simple.

This does not make them profitable.

The minute I saw those pretty graphs (about 10 months ago) I wrote EAs for both systems. The results were plain crappy using M1 data.

I suspect Joel does not have M1 data, so his lowest timeframe confuses the backtester, and it gives erroneous fills to create those equity curves.

These are very easy systems to write programs for, and you can do your own research to discover their "predictive power."
Ahah, would you like another reality check?

The "live blog" of trades Joel posted contained First Strike, ONS, and a "mystery system." The FS and ONS trades were breaking even after several weeks of trading, last time I checked.

Most large profitable trades were often called after they were closed.

I am simply not impressed.
Quoting paradoxical
There goes Tdion again. Tdion...what do you do? Lurk around looking for systems to diss? But, in all seriousness, Tdion, FF needs someone like you to expose the fallacies in systems. Joel was posting actual results for quite a few months. No back testing involved. Are you saying a system that once worked extraordinarily well doesn't work anymore? I don't know. I merely perused his website, and it looked good to me.
I too have been watching joel post results since october, and on his site there are records for over a year of live trading, which is more than most will do, and he doesn't even charge anything for it!!!!
i found joel thru the dibs thread and peter crown, who seemed to get instant respect from long timers here at FF straight away, joel also seemed to get the same respect from the comments that he has made on FF, and peter crowns respect for joel was evedent as well. Joel was also a member of another forum i think it was the traders round table or something like that, he went by the name leonardo, from what i read over there he seemed well respected there too, as to the origin of the data he used to perform his back test results, i guess he is the only one who can answer that, but he also says, i think, that he has used these methods and variations of them sucessfully for many years.
Anyway it's interesting, and keeping me out of trouble, and if nothing else it has helped me focus my trading on more longer term methods, and being comfortable with that.
cheers
geoff
Quoting tdion
Ahah, would you like another reality check?

The "live blog" of trades Joel posted contained First Strike, ONS, and a "mystery system." The FS and ONS trades were breaking even after several weeks of trading, last time I checked.

Most large profitable trades were often called after they were closed.

I am simply not impressed.
My own live results have been favorable. I started in May and more than doubled a small account. The account languished for a while--about 6 weeks, then made a substantial gain. It has followed that same pattern all along--weeks of lackluster results followed by impressive gains.
I 've skipped many weeks of ONS, but faithfully placed the orders for FS. I have been guilty of closing trades early. A few times I was up 15-18 hundred pips by weds and cashed out early. Sometimes that worked in my favor when compared to the model account, and sometimes not. If that sounds inflated, bear in mind that there are weeks when all positions will stop out for a loss.

As far as the mystery system: I believe that was simply an adjustment to entry and stoploss placement based on the prior weeks range. This change has become part of the method, although it was used by Joel a few times and only announced afterward; to be fair, you're correct Tdion. And I believe there was mention of an algorithm used to give one pair more weight than another.

I don't really consider the entries "calls", as you can download the instructions and make the same trades without ever referring to the website, except to check for updates. It's simply a method, with no calls required. The only reason the entries and stoplosses are sent out is to benefit those who are either too lazy or not competent enough to do a few minutes of simple math each week. And it's an easy way to double check your figures.

The addition of buying and holding silver in the account, to me, is what will give varied results. I've done a little better by moving in and out of silver a few times while the model account holds it. Some people trading forex aren't necessarily set up to buy and sell silver and may be excluded from that portion. But that's no reason to dismiss the method.

My opinion is this: Six months of live trading using identical entries and a few early exits have been favorable for me. Even with the few vagaries, it's done well for me. I'm not particularly troubled if Joel does something a little different one week. In fact, I could care less. The silver addition creates another variable, but I don't believe it's inflated the results at this point.

And this is trading. The past 6 months have been atypical. 12 more will give a clearer picture.
Quoting geoffrod
Anyway it's interesting, and keeping me out of trouble, and if nothing else it has helped me focus my trading on more longer term methods, and being comfortable with that.
cheers
geoff
For me, FS has been an excellent exercise in holding my trades. I don't trade it with huge size which makes it easier to hold. If I've had exceptional results by midweek, I may cash out or take half off. A violation of the rules, I know, but holding a trade for even three days is a long time for me.
And by placing orders at the same time each week, I started maintaining better schedules for my other methods.
Quoting tdion

Most large profitable trades were often called after they were closed.
tdion - this is not true. Joel emails out the trade orders for both methods in advance. For free. He explicitly states that he does not want to share hs position sizing algorithm. However, if you are not too lazy, you can build a spreadsheet, enter the results and after a few weeks work it out with simple algebra.

I absolutely agree that anyone serious about trading should backtest the parameters of any system and choose the set they want. Joel's tests are in TradeStation, which can test down to tick resolution if required.

It amazes me that some "traders' think they can trade a very simple weekly system and expect a steadily upward equity curve on a monthly basis. Most mechanical systems - even really good ones - spend most of the time going sideways AND in drawdown, giving the occasionally surge to new equity highs.

Well, enough blah blah from me on a Thursday morning...
Quick q for DaBuschi who I see is online : what do you mean by

Quote
Trend determination - If SMA10 > SMA40 - uptrend, vice versa downtrend, if both SMAs too close - no trend
, ie. how do you define "too close" ?

(I'm hopping between threads here... )
Quoting tdion
People like Joel's methods because they are simple.

This does not make them profitable.

The minute I saw those pretty graphs (about 10 months ago) I wrote EAs for both systems. The results were plain crappy using M1 data.

I suspect Joel does not have M1 data, so his lowest timeframe confuses the backtester, and it gives erroneous fills to create those equity curves.

These are very easy systems to write programs for, and you can do your own research to discover their "predictive power."
How far back did you backtest the system? Joel didnīt make a secret out of the fact that there might be years with a loss or where trading is just break even. On the long term itīs a robust system, where one canīt expect miracles.

What were your expectations??

My account is up more than 300% sind May 2008. So it seems like last year was one of the better years with harder ones in front of us down the road.
Quoting jtrade
Quick q for DaBuschi who I see is online : what do you mean by

, ie. how do you define "too close" ?

(I'm hopping between threads here... )
I look at the SMAs on a daily timeframe. They are too close for me, when it seems that they will cross during the next week, just have recently crossed or when the angle between the two SMAs is pretty much flat due to a longer term sideways market. I didnīt implement that "too close" in my automated system for TradeSignal5, so that system only knew trendfollowing or countertrend. The logic behind that is pretty simple. In trending market I just work with the assumption that market is moving faster and further going with the trend and I want to be in those moves with a bigger position.
Quoting geoffrod
It is really interesting that you mention trading your version on a daily basis, i have been thinking about this myself just recently, would you care to elaborate on the way you might implement it, if not no problem, i would be curious is all.
cheers
Geoff
To answer your question:

I follow the exact same rules on the daily system as I do on the weekly. So I determine the previuos weeks range and all that stuff. The only difference is:

I get up every morning to get the 06.00 GMT price and place my trades and I use two accounts to do so as my broker/marketmaker doesnīt allow hedging within the same account.

The only difficulty I experienced very quickly was, that itīs tough to keep track of all the trades and different stops. So I created an excel spreadsheet, wrote some macros and now itīs more automated and easy to do so.

Whoever is interested in my spreadsheet, please send me your email addy via PM and Iīll send you the spreadsheet via mail as it is to big to upload it here.

I might also write a manual as itīs not always easy to understand someone elseīs logic. Iīll provide that in a word file.

Once there are issues or questions on how to use it, they can be either asked via mail or here in the forum as I assume that different users might face the same issues or have similar questions.

Edit#1: With saying, that I apply the exact same rules from the weekly system, I mean, that positions are held one week - trade placed on a Tuesday means, the position will be closed on a Tuesday if not stop is hit before. The same applies for all the other weekdays, except Saturday and Sunday

Edit#2: My spreadsheet has been optimized for the use with Oanda.
Quoting geoffrod
I thought it might be interesting to see just how many people over here at FF are following/using, standard or modified versions of Joel's (aka TRT) methods.
I have been following both since October last year, only demo at the moment, and no mods on my end, just trying to keep it as simple as possible, and conservative, only risking 1% of my account balance per trade, i have made mistakes along the way, missed trades, miscalculated trades and such, but it is all a learning proccess.
I do feel that since i started following this method i have become...

Where are the original threads with those methods?
Quoting vladv
Where are the original threads with those methods?
http://infiniteyieldforex.blogspot.com/
Thanks for the link,I will study all the info available there.
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