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Institutional Equivalent Education?

  • #301
  • Edited May 22, 2017 12:31am May 21, 2017 1:53pm | Edited May 22, 2017 12:31am
I found that Anton Kreil video ( that Cristy1980 mentioned above) in another FF thread.
It is in the '5 years and still no strategy' thread, page number 106 , post number 2112

I am currently viewing it, so far (34 minutes in out of 2hrs) he has covered a lot of nasty features of trading which most novices ignore. Very few trainers (Ray is an exception) talk about some of these things because they would put novices off the idea of trading.

However I disagree with many several of the things he says about retail trading and day trading.
For example that because Volatility has drastically reduced since the financial crisis in 2008, day traders can't make any money. He shows his trading background by equating day trading with scalping.
Day trading doesn't have to be scalping, you can pre-news trade, news trade, volatility cycle trade or short term value trade - all without holding overnight (wherever you are) and without scalping against the high speed Algos.

I have now got to where he discusses IB contracts. He says that since Singapore has banned IB contracts, they will eventually be banned in Europe and the USA.
He claims that all retail educators work via IB contracts for a Broker, hence have a conflict of interest. This is not true. Ray shows how to trade many different ways on many different markets using many different software packages and platforms - no IB situation. In fact he has positively refused to suggest particular Brokers to his students. Although Compass are an IB, their education clients can use any software and any platform and Broker they like.
Out of more than 50 so called 'trading education courses' I have taken none mandated a particular Broker though a few had lists of suggestions and only one had a referral link so as to be in a position to get any kick-back.

I now see that Anton's slide shows a modified statement about IBs - now claiming 95% of Reatil educators have IB contracts - I am confident that this is still wrong.
  • #302
  • Edited 1:11am May 22, 2017 12:39am | Edited 1:11am
Two good quotes from the Anton Kreil video are:

1. Professionals use 80% Fundamental Analysis s and only 20% Technical Analysis. - Very true, but that is the Strategists who instruct the traders, rather than the traders.

2. You can't come up with 9 or 10 good ideas for trades if you are just sitting by a pool - though it is possible to press the buy/sell button from there. Actually pressing the button is only a small fraction of the work - and a retail trader must put in that work to be successful.


I say: Remember that a retail trader has to be their own Strategist (as well as Risk Manaqer, Quant etc.)
  • #303
  • May 22, 2017 1:55am May 22, 2017 1:55am
Quoting ianf0ster
Two good quotes from the Anton Kreil video are: 1. Professionals use 80% Fundamental Analysis s and only 20% Technical Analysis. - Very true, but that is the Strategists who instruct the traders, rather than the traders. 2. You can't come up with 9 or 10 good ideas for trades if you are just sitting by a pool - though it is possible to press the buy/sell button from there. Actually pressing the button is only a small fraction of the work - and a retail trader must put it that work to be successful. Remember that a retail trader has to be their own...
I'm not sure how to take Anton. He provides some information which is accurate but then has some hard and fast 'beliefs' about the space that are clearly incorrect.

He also embodies many of the things he advises retailers to avoid: no track record (there is proof he worked for the institutions and held said roles, but no proof of his individual trading record), he poses in front of super cars, perennially holidaying; postures all over social media regarding his status and wealth.

No idea whether his offering is of any value, but from what is visible there are some major contradictions at play and his assumptions regarding day trading and liquidity are laughable. His reference to the Euros range as proof that day trading is not plausible, as it is 'the most liquid currency pair', was a particularly good one. He does understand that higher liquidity is inversely correlated with volatility?

He seems to lack an understanding of modern day trading models or at least pretends to in order to sell his style of content.
  • #304
  • May 22, 2017 2:50am May 22, 2017 2:50am
I studied Ray's course (still a student) and Jarrat Davis' course as well. And almost done with Anton's course now.

I must say Anton's institutional education is the best out of the three in terms of content and content presentation. Like a real university course. Without the useless BS.

Of course if you watch ALL of Ray's videos and somehow manage to absorb them (good luck with that), you can become some kind of trading super hero, but sadly he will always come with some kind of new technical toy to play with and people get all excited all of a sudden. Extremely solid but the good stuff is buried under hours and hours of sessions. Still definitely worth it. Even the bare experience of listening to this guy is worth the money.

Jarratt's education is a bit too simplified / shallow and he's chasing moves, thus making it look dodgy. But there are plenty of good stuff in there too. And Jarrat is very clear and seems to have no ego. Which is refreshing in the trading world.

I would say that after taking the three courses you can become a very profitable daily / weekly trader, and if you have your own small TF system, a very good intraday and swing trader as well.

PS:
Quoting nhen
{quote}He does understand that higher liquidity is inversely correlated with volatility?
Yes he does. That's exactly what he is saying.
Hidden in plain sight.
  • #305
  • May 22, 2017 3:09am May 22, 2017 3:09am
Quoting jakucha
I studied Ray's course (still a student) and Jarrat Davis' course as well. And almost done with Anton's course now. I must say Anton's institutional education is the best out of the three in terms of content and content presentation. Like a real university course. Without the useless BS.
Very interesting, thanks for replying.

So you would say that Anton's offering is inline with Ray's but more structured? Does the content cover shorter time scale opportunities as Ray does, or is it focussed on broader only with a more macro focus?

The comments re day trading do paint a particular picture, whether there is subtlety missed within interpretation or not.

Agreed in regards to Ray and the incredibly long and neverending wash of videos. I'm interested to see whether this restructure in course form will hit the mark or not. I enjoy the repetition of Ray covering topics each week when the core concepts are revisited with new perspectives. But agreed if following without discretion one could go in circles for years.

He's clearly obsessed with the markets which is awesome, but the passion of always exploring new tweaks all over the place is overwhelming when trying first to master the core concepts and apply them.
  • #306
  • May 22, 2017 3:45am May 22, 2017 3:45am
Quoting nhen
{quote} Very interesting, thanks for replying. So you would say that Anton's offering is inline with Ray's but more structured? Does the content cover shorter time scale opportunities as Ray does, or is it focussed on broader only with a more macro focus? The comments re day trading do paint a particular picture, whether there is subtlety missed within interpretation or not. Agreed in regards to Ray and the incredibly long and neverending wash of videos. I'm interested to see whether this restructure in course form will hit the mark or not. I enjoy...
Anton's course is mainly macroeconomics. But very detailed. I would say he really takes you through the fundy analysis that smart money follows. Videos are long and backed with data. Dont expect short time frame content. Although I am not completely done with it. But from what I saw so far what he suggests is 2-3 months trades, nothing shorter. I guess for someone who never got proper financial or economical education (like me), this is very valuable. Would allow you to buy pound at the end of the daily consolidations a few weeks back and ride it while sleeping like a baby. Which I did

About Ray, I really love the stuff but as you say it is overwhelming. Any restructuration would be more than welcome. But I am not aware of it. Any news?
Hidden in plain sight.
  • #307
  • May 22, 2017 5:38am May 22, 2017 5:38am
Hi all... hope that Ian don't mind that I linked here that video initially, but it's so hard to find on FF anything else that "flashing indi's"... Indeed I was notified by the "Institution of Portfolio....." that the video is back online, and that indeed he was sued in US, by some "Trading Educators". So someone indeed was offended ))))

In 2015 I found in online his course, it's free if use "torrents" or other means of P2P file transfer (if u pay the initial course is 2000 -3000$), and it's packed with fundamental analysis and transformation of data in trading ideas, but it's heavily orientated to stocks and other risky assets (since he is coming from bank and hedge founds...). I'm not economical proficient, no MBA, but looking on the way he structures information and put them in simple XLS spreadsheets, make some of "Analytical" job from trading a little easy, although I think I have to remove the dust from it and pull from the shelve the course once again; short memory or to much "study" over the years....

BTW jakucha, do u have access to the FX stuff from Anton (there is a FX course from it 80% fundy and 20% technical), I looked all over on the know places on the internet and didn't find anything leek yet... I'm so so curios on some of the stuff presented there, how he present the spread differentials, and other particular aspects, how he calculate and interpret some things over there.... (he is crazy with those XLS spreadsheets ))), he computes everything that can be computed).

As a side note, from what I notice from that old course, he is a more long time oriented, and it's simple to be like this, his money management is focused on building positions over time, and not exiting at end of day. (ins't this what u do with stocks?!).

I have some of Ray 2014 -2015 videos, and yes also in those free videos he is subtle, and looking/listening over and over again u get some interesting ideas, and as jakucha said: "Even the bare experience of listening to this guy is worth the money."
  • #308
  • May 22, 2017 6:17am May 22, 2017 6:17am
Quoting jakucha
{quote} Anton's course is mainly macroeconomics. But very detailed. I would say he really takes you through the fundy analysis that smart money follows. Videos are long and backed with data. Dont expect short time frame content. Although I am not completely done with it. But from what I saw so far what he suggests is 2-3 months trades, nothing shorter. I guess for someone who never got proper financial or economical education (like me), this is very valuable. Would allow you to buy pound at the end of the daily consolidations a few weeks back and...
Good stuff. I'm interested in more macro based study but given the time horizon of my strategy, this would be more for my personal interest in being well-rounded than (I would assume) being directly applicable to my intraday strat. I don't expose enough of my personal capital to make monthly trades worthwhile as a main, or second tier income source. But I understand the passive appeal for sure.

Now, if I could get an intraday entry on a separate account and have the knowledge to ride it for a macro move, then things get interesting.

I keep hearing it's coming, but who knows.. The way Ray responds when asked about it makes me think it's Kim/Compass that are slowing things down; that is pure speculation though.

Cristy, I believe if you do some detailed searching, avoiding the spam, you'll be able to find what you're looking for eventually. If you find value in something I think then purchasing the material is the way to go; put that karma wheel into action in the right direction
  • #309
  • May 22, 2017 7:15am May 22, 2017 7:15am
Quoting jakucha
I studied Ray's course (still a student) and Jarrat Davis' course as well. And almost done with Anton's course now. I must say Anton's institutional education is the best out of the three in terms of content and content presentation. Like a real university course. Without the useless BS. Of course if you watch ALL of Ray's videos and somehow manage to absorb them (good luck with that), you can become some kind of trading super hero, but sadly he will always come with some kind of new technical toy to play with and people get all excited all of a...
Hello jakucha, how much are the Anton's course? where is his webpage? what is the name of the name of the course?
So for forex trading is not the best bc Anton focuses more in equities?
What i have seen of Ray is that all is after the fact and as you say all topics are scattered and hours of videos.
Also a big problem of this courses is the implementation, you can read ,watch etc and understand and another thing is that you can eventually trade the ideas or strategy.
  • #310
  • May 22, 2017 7:28am May 22, 2017 7:28am
I have to reply on those last replies from Cristy1980 and Jakucha.

Don't know if Jakucha is still a member of Ray's room but the lessons Ray teaches us have been evolved. He will do a daily wrap up. If he saw something that day that was worth mentioning and go in some deeper he will do. If you have questions during the day or after the day you can ask it in the room or send it to Kim. She will redirect it to Ray and Ray will answer it the next day in the Wrap Up.

Like I said earlier Ray has evolved in teaching. Also because he found some tools on internet to show us retail traders how institutions look at the markets.
Because their software is proprietary he can't share it with us what he sees on his screens so he is always searching the internet to find other ways to show what you have to look for.

And last year, year and a half he has found some tools we can use to trade more or less like an institution.
So the first 2 years his teaching was more based on price action and fundamentals like news and such but last 18 months it has really evolved into more institutional trading.
I can't tell you how of course but you will never find it anywhere else on the internet(with the remark that I don't know what Anton is teaching).

BTW Ray is a strategist slash quant in his firm and I think Anton was a trader. So if I want to be taught by someone then I will always choose a strategist, not a trader.
  • #311
  • May 22, 2017 7:34am May 22, 2017 7:34am
Quoting samidy
I have to reply on those last replies from Cristy1980 and Jakucha. Don't know if Jakucha is still a member of Ray's room but the lessons Ray teaches us have been evolved. He will do a daily wrap up. If he saw something that day that was worth mentioning and go in some deeper he will do. If you have questions during the day or after the day you can ask it in the room or send it to Kim. She will redirect it to Ray and Ray will answer it the next day in the Wrap Up. Like I said earlier Ray has evolved in teaching. Also because he found some tools on...
Thanks for the update. I have nothing against ray's teaching. Just saying that even with 8 years of experience and a good understanding of the market, it's pretty hard to keep up with Ray's productions. I was there in december 2016 so everything I am saying does not concern anything after that because it would not be honest from me to talk about something I do not know. Plus I respect the guy very much. What I have access to now, however, is an endless list of four-hour videos that leaves me frustrated as I know I cannot keep up. Now, that being said, if my girlfriend wanted to learn trading, I would definitely show her the official video course that is available as it is excellent.

Thank for your time and have a good day.
Hidden in plain sight.
  • #312
  • May 22, 2017 7:45am May 22, 2017 7:45am
Quoting juangecko
{quote} What i have seen of Ray is that all is after the fact and as you say all topics are scattered and hours of videos. Also a big problem of this courses is the implementation, you can read ,watch etc and understand and another thing is that you can eventually trade the ideas or strategy.
This is incorrect. Not sure where you heard the after the fact remarks, but Ray has a private Twitter running (for those in the live room) where he shares value and technical ideas hours and/or days ahead of time. A very high percentage of these result in solid trade outcomes.

Agreeing with Sam regarding the content now being more considered, even since I joined a few months back. He's trying to keep videos shorter and be more precise.

Coming in it's still a tough navigate as he is constantly evolving and exploring. However, as I've said previously, if you leverage the help of the more active and knowledgeable student's in the Skype group and live room you'll be able to figure out where to go to shortern the learning curve and avoid watching month's worth of videos without structure.

There are core modules that are structured to start off with. It's really the prolific new content that can make your head spin if coming straight into the room cold.
  • #313
  • May 22, 2017 7:58am May 22, 2017 7:58am
Quoting nhen
{quote} This is incorrect. Not sure where you heard the after the fact remarks, but Ray has a private Twitter running (for those in the live room) where he shares value and technical ideas hours and/or days ahead of time. A very high percentage of these result in solid trade outcomes. Agreeing with Sam regarding the content now being more considered, even since I joined a few months back. He's trying to keep videos shorter and be more precise. Coming in it's still a tough navigate as he is constantly evolving and exploring. However, as I've said...
the twitter is something new..but bottom line do you trade his signals? are you a profitable trader using his methods?
  • #314
  • May 22, 2017 8:12am May 22, 2017 8:12am
Juan,
I think you are missing the point. It is not about you trading his signals. It is about you understanding why it moves in that direction.
If you master that you will be very profitable.
But like anything in life there are people who doesn't see it even when it is right in front of them.
  • #315
  • May 22, 2017 8:14am May 22, 2017 8:14am
Quoting juangecko
{quote} the twitter is something new..but bottom line do you trade his signals? are you a profitable trader using his methods?
If you're asking these questions I would question whether you've gone deep enough into any strategy nor yourself (in relation to trading) yet.

I don't trade his signals as some sort of signal service, I focus on one instrument and note his ideas when carrying out my own analysis as a point of confluence.

I was trading my own model profitably before finding his offering. It has added a multitude of depth to what was a purely technical approach. As well as expanding my technical insights as well.

I get that this industry is pretty much one giant minefield of bullshit and crooks, but so is the rest of life if you look in the wrong places. I have found great value in watching him, but I also work hard at everything I do, and cultivate an expansive and positive attitude, and approach to life in general.

You can make money trading purely technical if your setups are based on market structure and you have mastered yourself.

However, for me personally I like to know how things work and enjoy learning. I'll be studying until I can no longer do so.
  • #316
  • May 22, 2017 8:20am May 22, 2017 8:20am
Meanwhile, I just watched this video and I will say it changed my view of Anton. I always thought he seemed dodgy, and although there is still an undertone of promotion in here for his institute, you can tell he gets it; not just in relation to trading, but life in general.

There are certain things you can fake, but wisdom is not one of them, and he shares some interesting insights in this, on trading and life.

I don't agree with everything, some things flat out disagree, some things are a total wank, but overall I think he's on point.

Inserted Video
  • #317
  • May 22, 2017 12:42pm May 22, 2017 12:42pm
I have just taken a look at Anton's website.
He appears to offer so-called courses with an exam and resume buzwords for budding Professional Traders.

But the 'exam' is total bullsh1t :
A 100 question multiple choice online exam - Seriously, does this test that somebody can A). Trade profitably ; B). Manage Risk
  • #318
  • May 22, 2017 5:23pm May 22, 2017 5:23pm
Quoting ianf0ster
I have just taken a look at Anton's website. He appears to offer so-called courses with an exam and resume buzwords for budding Professional Traders. But the 'exam' is total bullsh1t : A 100 question multiple choice online exam - Seriously, does this test that somebody can A). Trade profitably ; B). Manage Risk
Yeah I hear ya, I still can't make up my mind on this dude in terms of his offering. Some things I see are such BS and others I can see value.
  • #319
  • May 23, 2017 12:13pm May 23, 2017 12:13pm
Quoting nhen
{quote} If you're asking these questions I would question whether you've gone deep enough into any strategy nor yourself (in relation to trading) yet.
Ha, ha, ha! Oh, the irony. If you only knew the man you were directing this to... if you only knew.
  • #320
  • May 23, 2017 6:06pm May 23, 2017 6:06pm
Quoting Ian K
{quote} Ha, ha, ha! Oh, the irony. If you only knew the man you were directing this to... if you only knew.
That may well be the case but those questions from juangecko are still the wrong questions..
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