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Do you believe brokers hunt your stoploss

  • #41
  • May 8, 2017 4:41am May 8, 2017 4:41am
Quoting marcmarc
{quote} Hi Aussi, I presume you mean forex trading is the same as gambling on forex to you. If you do, this is an interesting avenue to go down! It can be argued that trading is gambling, it certainly shares some common elements, but I don't consider I am gambling when I am trading. I think (it may be self-delusional, of course!) I am speculating. All of which requires, I think, some definitions, so: - gambling to me is accepting fixed odds which are against you, e.g. playing roulette, buying a lottery ticket - speculating to me is accepting unknown...
again I am the first to say , if it works for go for it kindest regards from dave
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  • #42
  • May 8, 2017 8:55am May 8, 2017 8:55am
Quoting marcmarc
{quote} ... speculating to me is accepting unknown outcomes but with known limited risk when the assessed odds are in your favour. The essential difference is that the former has negative statistical expectancy, the latter has a positive one ...
Hi marcmarc, very nice interpretation of trading. I'll use it next time, when convincing my friend that speculating is not the same as gambling I have a colleague, otherwise very intelligent person, who tries to convince me, that my positive trading results are coming from just me being lucky. He visits casinos on weekly basis for years now and his average outcome is net negative. I just can't convince him that the more he plays, more certainly it is, he will lose money, because house fixed negative expectations are working against him every time he roles the dice. When trading, position sizing, SL and TP are the only elements that we have in our control to influence our risk/reward ratio and enable us enough repetitions that our hopefully positive expectation come into play. Maybe with technical knowledge, we can have some impact on our win/lose ratio to some degree, I think we do, how else can you have an edge in the long run if not, but I don't want to argue on that front. Eliminate those three basic elements from trading equation and we are just like casino gamblers, with commissions/spreads creating negative odds for us.
  • #43
  • May 8, 2017 10:06am May 8, 2017 10:06am
Quoting Tom81
{quote} Hi marcmarc, very nice interpretation of trading. I'll use it next time, when convincing my friend that speculating is not the same as gambling I have a colleague, otherwise very intelligent person, who tries to convince me, that my positive trading results are coming from just me being lucky. He visits casinos on weekly basis for years now and his average outcome is net negative. I just can't convince him that the more he plays, more certainly it is, he will lose money, because house fixed negative expectations are working against...
Hi Tom81,
That strikes a chord with me; my younger brother likes to play red/black on roulette in a casino and swears he always makes a profit or breaks even because he operates a martingale double-up-each-time-you-lose-until-you-win strategy (though he doesn't actually know what a martingale strategy is). I am unable to explain to him that eventually he will get blown away by a run of losses swamping his position size capacity.

On trading, you are right, we have very few controllables and if you let them go you have no chance of coming out on top in the long haul. I do also think we can create a win/loss edge by good market analysis - which basically boils down to trading with the trend. That is a sufficiently effective and profitable trading edge all by itself, no fancy indicators required. Combine that with good money management, excellent risk control, discipline and consistency and you can have a robust positive expectancy speculative trading strategy that is not gambling.

However, for an alternative view, try the book 'Fooled by Randomness' by Nassim Nicholas Taleb. It's a good read on how financial markets operate and he has a very persuasive view that just about everything is random, not skill. Good luck....
  • #44
  • May 8, 2017 3:37pm May 8, 2017 3:37pm
I remember a guy complaining of stop hunting who was only using a demo account!
Gravity goes both ways in forex...
  • #45
  • May 8, 2017 7:39pm May 8, 2017 7:39pm
Quoting max pips
I remember a guy complaining of stop hunting who was only using a demo account!
yes I think that was a while ago , the point was I believe he opened a demo account before a real account and found problems with the broker
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  • #46
  • May 8, 2017 10:28pm May 8, 2017 10:28pm
Quoting max pips
I remember a guy complaining of stop hunting who was only using a demo account!
lol classic
  • #47
  • May 8, 2017 10:37pm May 8, 2017 10:37pm
Quoting JohnDalio
{quote} lol classic
Do brokers stop hunt?
  • #48
  • May 8, 2017 11:17pm May 8, 2017 11:17pm
Define "hunt".
  • #49
  • May 8, 2017 11:30pm May 8, 2017 11:30pm
Quoting Mingary
As crazy as this sounds the market will try to fill orders because that is its purpose ! Therefore a stop loss for you is just an order for the market and "it" will try to make you happy by filling your order (obviously a loss must be what you want) There is that and the fact that the market cannot function if traders don't lose...
Agree 100%. That is exactly why I have takeprofit field filled in but stoploss has no value. My ea's have internal stoploss target not visible to market.
  • #50
  • May 8, 2017 11:39pm May 8, 2017 11:39pm
Quoting JimDandy
Define "hunt".
Do they manipulate the market to stop you out?
  • #51
  • May 8, 2017 11:48pm May 8, 2017 11:48pm
When you blow your account, is it because you have a stop loss or because you don't have one?
  • #52
  • May 11, 2017 4:19am May 11, 2017 4:19am
Quoting beacon
when you blow your account, is it because you have a stop loss or because you don't have one?
if your stoploss is you bank yes ,
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  • #53
  • May 11, 2017 4:26am May 11, 2017 4:26am
Quoting Bigpipin13
{quote} Do they manipulate the market to stop you out?
im going to try to answer it for you ,

the people sitting in there office might be 20 people with your account and hundreds of others each , they able to look at you trading account and see where your positions are , there platform is able to be manipulated to take your stoploss he gets commission on it so its to his advantage the broker as plugins which they use
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  • #54
  • May 11, 2017 5:04pm May 11, 2017 5:04pm
Quoting Scotty B
Age old question, the answer of course is YES! and no. Your broker doesn't necessarily care about your stops, but the market as a whole does, stops are a source of liquidity. If there is a cluster of stop orders, say at 100 in a bull market. Price is currently at 101 and the market made a swing low at 100. Lots of little guys are getting long and because they are little, they are leveraged to the gills. The players who are sizeable enough to move the market, whose orders do just that--MOVE THE MARKET--have to think about, and be smart about where...

Quoting Tom81
If you can place big enough order to slightly move price action, you can count on cumulated stop losses to do the rest. It's not exactly stop hunting, but you have to know that every SL on buy order is effectively sell order and vice versa, so if you can take out stop losses around obvious support/resistance levels, you get a breakthrough. Are bucket shops doing it? No, if you trade with real STP, ECN providers and not dealing desk manipulator pretending to be STP. Are largest investment banks in currency business (Citi, JP, UBS, DB, BOA, Barc,...
Great posts!

My retail broker, Oanda, will use my stop order for liquidity if I provide it during a time of illiquidity. That's for sure.

Those market makers won't lean toward stops necessarily, but if that stop level co-insides with something like a large barrier option, then it'll be advantageous to move the FX market during a time of low or one-sided liquidity.

ie; EurUsd lately when it popped 1.100 in early Monday morning Asian trading during low liquidity. Im sure there were stops just above that round # too.
ForexOrderFlow.com Return This Year: 14.1%
  • #55
  • May 11, 2017 5:22pm May 11, 2017 5:22pm
Brokers don't need to stop hunt!
Learn, a forex trader must, unlearn and relearn he will.
  • #56
  • May 11, 2017 8:13pm May 11, 2017 8:13pm
Eventually, you may want to go to currency futures when your account grows big enough....
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
  • #57
  • May 11, 2017 11:01pm May 11, 2017 11:01pm
Quoting COGSx86
Brokers don't need to stop hunt!
WHY commissions paid to there staff rely on it
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  • #58
  • May 13, 2017 6:03am May 13, 2017 6:03am
Quoting MoneyZilla
Yes and No p.s. better flip, instead of taking a sl
you lost the toss
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  • #59
  • May 13, 2017 9:31am May 13, 2017 9:31am
Quoting Aussi
{quote} you lost the toss
How is that so?
Maadik Hugiis. IQ 69.
  • #60
  • May 13, 2017 3:14pm May 13, 2017 3:14pm
Quoting Aussi
{quote} WHY commissions paid to there staff rely on it
Commissions are based on how much you trade, the more you trade the more the broker makes. STP/ECN/MM they all make money! Considering most traders lose it all, being a broker is the way to go! They don't need to stop loss hunt!
Learn, a forex trader must, unlearn and relearn he will.
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