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Mysterious gains and low annual gains

  • #1
  • First Post: Feb 12, 2017 2:34am Feb 12, 2017 2:34am
the question is simple:
if one can easy make 10% a week as daytrader, without over leveraging and with proper money management.

why is it that the average (sucessful) trader rips only 7-15% a year at best ?

that makes very little sense to me.
  • #2
  • Feb 12, 2017 7:51am Feb 12, 2017 7:51am
Quoting nullx8
the question is simple: if one can easy make 10% a week as daytrader, without over leveraging and with proper money management. why is it that the average (sucessful) trader rips only 7-15% a year at best ? that makes very little sense to me.
When we talk about big money 10% a week can be a very difficult target.
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"You may say I am a dreamer .... but I am not the only one."
  • #3
  • Feb 12, 2017 8:01am Feb 12, 2017 8:01am
Quoting nullx8
the question is simple: if one can easy make 10% a week as daytrader, without over leveraging and with proper money management. why is it that the average (sucessful) trader rips only 7-15% a year at best ? that makes very little sense to me.
Just curious how you came up with that number 7-15% at best. If the trader is successful they make that monthly! not annually.Nobody is going waste shitload of time and effort to make that little if successful.
I make that and more monthly.
In trading, you have to be defensive and aggressive at the same time
  • #4
  • Feb 12, 2017 8:19am Feb 12, 2017 8:19am
Quoting Davit
{quote} Just curious how you came up with that number 7-15% at best. If the trader is successful they make that monthly! not annually.Nobody is going waste shitload of time and effort to make that little if successful. I make that and more monthly.
7% - 15% a year is "little" for us retail traders because we trade for an income with a small capital.
But for the big boys is not little.

Green pips
"You may say I am a dreamer .... but I am not the only one."
  • #5
  • Feb 12, 2017 8:23am Feb 12, 2017 8:23am
both of you have valid point's as i do have the very same ..
thats why i satarted this topic to get some more knowledge.

hedge funds are either a very big scam .. or the 10% week/month are simply not realistic.

however from y own trading experiences, if i do strictly follow the rules i make 2% a day with no sweat .. (by 100% respecting risk and money management)
thats where i get confused


okay at some point (as example if you placing order larger than 100 lots) some short term strategies may not work anymore and slipage will very likely not on your side at all ..
but till then .. i dont really see any rocks on the road ..
  • #6
  • Feb 12, 2017 8:24am Feb 12, 2017 8:24am
Quoting guesser
{quote} 7% - 15% a year is "little" for us retail traders because we trade for an income with a small capital. But for the big boys is not little. Green pips
exactly my point.If you have 10k account and you invested even 20hrs a week and end of the year made 700-1500 then you don't value your time.You could of made lot more getting a part time job with minimum wages.
This is type of BS I read all the time when people throw numbers and have no foundation where those numbers are coming from.
Then I really dislike when some put a spin on what is called "successful" Some idiotically define success even if you made $1 more then you had even in a year as successful.No that's called delusion.You got to ask seriously what is your time worth.

Don't know why I wasted time even replying.OP claims makes 2% a day and has idiotic opening for a thread.Hardly credible intellectually.
In trading, you have to be defensive and aggressive at the same time
  • #7
  • Feb 12, 2017 9:13am Feb 12, 2017 9:13am
Really man?......... "Just curious how you came up with that number 7-15% at best. If the trader is successful they make that monthly! not annually.Nobody is going waste shitload of time and effort to make that little if successful.
I make that and more monthly. "

Good thing is that you explained yourself......

Quoting Davit
{quote} ..... This is type of BS I read all the time when people throw numbers and have no foundation where those numbers are coming from. .....
So deliver the foundation for your statement. >15% a month.....
  • #8
  • Feb 12, 2017 9:41am Feb 12, 2017 9:41am
I am new at FF but certainly not new in The Game Of Forex....

Yes, institutions, fund managers, bankers etc etc mostly showing numbers like 18 to 22 percent yield a year. Many retail traders can't understand that that is quite hard to achieve. Why, because we are retail traders. Different mindset, different responsibility, different approach bla bla and so on. They need to explain their actions to the board and investors why a position opened or closed. All mostly based on macro economics, that moves a market and not a technical indicator. Technicals are used, sometimes, to time an entry based on the order books (where they see global limit/stop orders, TP, SL etc).

They do not use leverage. 10% drawdown (not speaking of working dd or relative dd) of base capital is absolutely max. Imagine to achieve 20 % YY consistent without getting your target DD triggered without using leverage. Try it for 6 months, it is super hard! I did it for 18 months. First 6 months to setting up my trackrecord after being selected at Citibank. I thought that would be easy since i managed to gain 20% a month as a retail trader for a longer while. So i talked like the most of us... i will show them boys how i roll... boy, i had a hard time ever since. But i made it. After 6 months (DD of 7% and avg monthly yield of 1.8%) i got my first client ($100.000 account). After 2 months another client. I did that a year with 'success'. Yielded 21% and a DD of 9%. But it was my hardest year ever in my trading years (trading 12 years now).

Just saying; make a judgement after you experienced it yourself.
  • #9
  • Feb 12, 2017 10:58am Feb 12, 2017 10:58am
Quoting JayRai
I did that a year with 'success'. Yielded 21% and a DD of 9%. But it was my hardest year ever in my trading years (trading 12 years now). Just saying; make a judgement after you experienced it yourself.
nice ! and great post...
i dont know where this hatered comming from from some other posts .. probably just jealousy haha

but no seriously i was (and still) being genuinly interested in other points of views.
and your's is not the most valuable so far.

most prop traders say the same as you do ... its a very different game indeed. but in the end the Yield does count .. right ?

iam not a "sucessful" trader yet .. (psycology issues) .. but as i wrote before .. if i do strictly follow my plan, i make 2% with no sweat.

i know there are different things in play for larger parties .. but the gap is too big to not to be taken by larger players as well

usually my equity drawdown is the same as the gain but because i do hedge, and some time it takes like 20% price difference till the next setup comes along on the same product .. so the drawdown on paper is much higher .. the few minutes the hedge is broke in the next setup i have a drawdown of the distance it took to the next setup .. (sure i could do it in the positive range close the trade in profit first, and then play the setup on the loosing counterpart .. but well i not plan to get hired in this lifetime by a prop firm anyway so the bottomline matters only.
  • #10
  • Feb 12, 2017 11:08am Feb 12, 2017 11:08am
Quoting Davit
Don't know why I wasted time even replying.OP claims makes 2% a day and has idiotic opening for a thread.Hardly credible intellectually.
just remove your response then .. the OP had a valid reason to do it .. and lucky there are not only trolls here and the thread has already some valid points on the prop and hedge fund side ..

this thread is not about my 2%/day (or not).. its about the huge difference between the institutions and the retailers.

and on a personal level i do not believe in myself that strongly yet,
so i try to find reasonable points besides the psychological aspects that stands against a 1 digit gain / day.

also about "worth my time" we talking about percentages here .. i can not find a hook to a salary comparison.
unless you compare the net worth of your employer with your salary which is just as idiotic as my opening.
  • #11
  • Feb 12, 2017 12:05pm Feb 12, 2017 12:05pm
Quoting HudithePfupf
Really man?......... "Just curious how you came up with that number 7-15% at best. If the trader is successful they make that monthly!
thats exactly the reason why i startet this topic!

most co called mentors praising you need to have at least whatever on your account to make it worth while ..
some trading room providers some up with numbers much smaller and claim to be "sucessful" ..

well sure if you have 500k on the account and you live in central africa making 1% .. you live like a king
so this is also all very much based on other factors besides the percentage gain .. (how wealth is defined based on your surroundings and lifestyle / xx% of what)

and the key question .. why is the gap between the large hedge funds and the retailers so big in matters of yield ??
  • #12
  • Edited 12:34pm Feb 12, 2017 12:23pm | Edited 12:34pm
Quoting nullx8
{quote} just remove your response then .. the OP had a valid reason to do it .. and lucky there are not only trolls here and the thread has already some valid points on the prop and hedge fund side .. this thread is not about my 2%/day (or not).. its about the huge difference between the institutions and the retailers. and on a personal level i do not believe in myself that strongly yet, so i try to find reasonable points besides the psychological aspects that stands against a 1 digit gain / day. also about "worth my time" we talking about percentages...
To you and others here who have a poor reading skills.Discussion was not about institutional trading.This is basically a retail trading forum so your inquire was directed about retail trading!
My response was to that point!
If you want to know about real institutional trading and traders read Market Wizard books.Plenty of detail examples.Its common knowledge that institutions moving millions and billions have totally different trading goals and perimeters that are vastly different then retail trading.You want to compare apples to oranges go ahead but at least make that clear on the 1st post!
There is also search engine called Google

Quoting nullx8
the question is simple: if one can easy make 10% a week as daytrader, without over leveraging and with proper money management. why is it that the average (sucessful) trader rips only 7-15% a year at best ? that makes very little sense to me.
In trading, you have to be defensive and aggressive at the same time
  • #13
  • Feb 12, 2017 12:25pm Feb 12, 2017 12:25pm
Quoting HudithePfupf
Really man?......... "Just curious how you came up with that number 7-15% at best. If the trader is successful they make that monthly! not annually.Nobody is going waste shitload of time and effort to make that little if successful. I make that and more monthly. " Good thing is that you explained yourself...... {quote} So deliver the foundation for your statement. >15% a month.....
Learn to read properly and I have no obligations to prove anything to simpletons.You want to know go to my thread and read from page 1! Just about every one of my trades and account info is POSTED on monthly bases!
In trading, you have to be defensive and aggressive at the same time
  • #14
  • Feb 12, 2017 1:04pm Feb 12, 2017 1:04pm
Mysterious gains ........
  • #15
  • Edited 1:39pm Feb 12, 2017 1:25pm | Edited 1:39pm
Quoting nullx8
both of you have valid point's as i do have the very same .. thats why i satarted this topic to get some more knowledge. hedge funds are either a very big scam .. or the 10% week/month are simply not realistic. however from y own trading experiences, if i do strictly follow the rules i make 2% a day with no sweat .. (by 100% respecting risk and money management) thats where i get confused okay at some point (as example if you placing order larger than 100 lots) some short term strategies may not work anymore and slipage will very likely not...
but when you have 2 % each day with no sweat, by only lets say trading 200 days in the year (so you have enough holidays). you will start with 10000 and have much more then a billion in only 3 years. so you are in lets say 5-6 years the most rich man in the world.
so when you trade more then 4 years you are the richest man in your country by far.

noone ever did reach this values, because its even not possible by math, if you do it some years you trade the most part of forex volume by your own and have no counterpart.
  • #16
  • Feb 12, 2017 2:09pm Feb 12, 2017 2:09pm
Quoting Davit
{quote}.... to prove anything to simpletons.......
If you say so, Ruben.......sometimes the paint dries slowly.....
...but what do I know, I am just a simpleton who prefers that people dedicating their talent towards real jobs, productive work, solving real problems or providing real services. You have some real world talents....why wasting your time in a negative sum game?


If you gaze long enough into the retail forex abyss, the abyss might gaze back into you.
  • #17
  • Feb 12, 2017 2:55pm Feb 12, 2017 2:55pm
Really!!! you burn the midnight oil for 20% annually.

So don't waste your time. Come to my country (Iran) and open accounts in Iranian banks. Interest rate in Iran is between 15% to 22% annually. It's different regarding to banks and the type of accounts although the official one is 15% annually. In some cases, regarding the largeness of your account, they may offer you something like 26%. It's guaranteed and you'll never lose your money. Easy peasy.



  • #18
  • Edited 3:21pm Feb 12, 2017 3:02pm | Edited 3:21pm
Quoting nullx8
the question is simple: if one can easy make 10% a week as daytrader,
10% a week???
Where did you get these insane numbers???

The most successful FX traders are extremely happy to earn 2% a month consistently with a 25% maximum drawdown (or less).

It does not seem much but on a compound basis 2% a month represents 27% a year return on investment, or 3 times the average ROI of the S&P 500.

Even those hot-shot Wall Street guys would kill for that kind or return!
  • #19
  • Feb 12, 2017 3:39pm Feb 12, 2017 3:39pm
Quoting Davit
{quote} Just curious how you came up with that number 7-15% at best. If the trader is successful they make that monthly! .
15% monthly means that the trader is consistently making 535% a year, compounded, or 60 times the average return of the S&P 50.
Not even Soros or Buffet can do that for any significant period of time, let's get real for a second.
  • #20
  • Feb 12, 2017 4:08pm Feb 12, 2017 4:08pm

I really enjoy when people talk big (I don't mean any specific person). The average accounts in retail traders is something between 4000 to 6000$ and yet people talk as if this amount is one million or higher. The MM and all the relevant percentage you see in banks or big institutions are completely irrelevant to retail traders. If you are talking about a 1000$ accounts, saying 1 or 2% risk in each position if not wrong it's not necessary at all. That percentage might be high for a million dollar account but for a small account 5 or 6% is completely rational and even 10% is not too much. It's the same when we talk about gain percentage.30% annually for a bank may be enough because they can't risk more than an amount regarding their huge accounts but for a retail trader with an account of 10k, that's BS. The MM and your return percentage in small accounts must be different from the large ones otherwise not only you don't make money but after a while you start losing as the result of psychological issues, considering you have an edge. I haven't seen even one real profitable retail trader who talks about these kinds of percentages.


I don't think any traders with an account of 100k or higher would engage in such these threads so all the above words are about average retail traders with an account of 20k tops, like myself.

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