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vsa with Malcolm

  • #28,101
  • Edited Dec 8, 2016 9:29am Dec 7, 2016 6:54pm | Edited Dec 8, 2016 9:29am
Quoting odines
{quote} That's a thing that I need to improve, sometimes i just let losing trades run for so long, i'm gonna watch some others TG videos {quote} Yo pres, any comments about this question? Would appreciate your asnwer {quote}
There is no one answer to that question. The general theory is that seeing lack of volume approaching a
trend line or zone or level or whatever shows lack of interest. Lack of interest typically means the level will
hold. Typically when a proven level gives way it is on
increasing volume as orders are filled and absorbed an
usually stops are hit on trades that are against the
break which just occurred.

Remember however that it's not lack of buyers that makes the market go down just as lack of sellers doesn't make the market go up. Buyers out numbering sellers make us go up and sellers out numbering buyers makes the market go down. That said though markets can go up (or down) on low volume if there are no new opposing orders. So based on that theory if all the sellers have left an old trend line or supply zone we can an will pass through it on low volume as the buyers would easily stay in control.

We need to remember what moves the market. We need to know who's in control at any given time so we can best assess PA as we approach these keys levels or zones etc... this will allow us to make the best decisions.

The safest way to trade IMHO (and how I trade) is to wait for the increased volume (effort), see what the result is an then trade any opposing signals to get in heading the same direction as the SM.
Today's zone = Tomorrow's opportunity!
  • #28,102
  • Dec 7, 2016 8:34pm Dec 7, 2016 8:34pm
Quoting Hawkins
Uneventful day for me today, hopefully someone out there had a better day. 2 trades, first trade on GBP taken at BE. {image} 2nd trade on NZD I don't expect this to go anywhere. {image}
Actually your NZD trade went a long way up
  • #28,103
  • Dec 7, 2016 8:43pm Dec 7, 2016 8:43pm
Quoting LuckyMind
{quote} But anyway, enter from those bars (excluding not enter from close) was according to the rules?
I don't like USDJPY, the test is at the top of the demand bar, I want to see the test around the close/low of the demand bar.

GBP I probably would have tried a trade there.
Trust the Market
  • #28,104
  • Dec 8, 2016 12:55am Dec 8, 2016 12:55am
Quoting pres78
{quote} Difference between a ND and I hidden test... Disclaimer - As always this is my answer based on how I trade and see the markets and may not be 100% in line with true VSA. First off a ND is in its most basic sense a SOW whereas a hidden test is a SOS. I prefer to see ND's for trading in a weak sellers market and hidden tests in a string buyers market. Second point for me is that a ND can make a HH than the previous bar but MUST NOT make a LL whereas a hidden test MUST make a LL than the previous bar otherwise it's not a test. If a ND makes...
Good morning!
First of all big thanks for your response.

But i confused a bit.
ND - up bar, closed of high, low volume. Can be down bar if we make HH
Hidden Test - it is just second type of ND (Can be down bar if we make HH)
Isn't it?

Also i really see no reason to distinguish them, they both tell us about weakness. Test - we dont want go higher, ND - and we just cant go higher
Some examples, tell me please, if I'm wrong
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  • #28,105
  • Dec 8, 2016 2:32am Dec 8, 2016 2:32am
Actually find this chart very nice, want to analyze it.

What happens at bar 2? It's bullish volume, since we go up, right? And this volume same to bar 1, so he canceled bar 1 weakness?
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  • #28,106
  • Dec 8, 2016 4:20am Dec 8, 2016 4:20am
Quoting LuckyMind
Actually find this chart very nice, want to analyze it. What happens at bar 2? It's bullish volume, since we go up, right? And this volume same to bar 1, so he canceled bar 1 weakness? {image}
Yep, there's buying on that candle, hence the volume and the subsequent bullish action.

There can't be any sense of one candle cancelling the other though, they are at different phases in the move, at different trading times and the bars are different lengths (the spread of 2 in larger than 1 so less volume per pip on 2 than 1). The sharp move down to 2 (sharper than up to 1, less candles/bars in it) and then the weak retracement failing to close higher than the high of 2 after quite a few candles, is all the evidence you need as to where this market is headed. Your analysis is fine for me. I wouldn't put any unnecessary emphasis on the "matched" volume there.
  • #28,107
  • Dec 8, 2016 4:57am Dec 8, 2016 4:57am
Quoting LuckyMind
{quote} Good morning! First of all big thanks for your response. But i confused a bit. ND - up bar, closed of high, low volume. Can be down bar if we make HH Hidden Test - it is just second type of ND (Can be down bar if we make HH) Isn't it? Also i really see no reason to distinguish them, they both tell us about weakness. Test - we dont want go higher, ND - and we just cant go higher Some examples, tell me please, if I'm wrong {image} {image}
No a hidden test can't be a down bar. If it's a hidden
test it's an up bar otherwise it's would be a regular
test. I distinguish them because I have rules for how
they must print. I want tests to be testing something.
ND is treated differently.

Also a test in its most basic form is not test for sellers and is know as a possible SOS not a SOW. They only become SOW once they fail.
Today's zone = Tomorrow's opportunity!
  • #28,108
  • Edited 5:41am Dec 8, 2016 5:13am | Edited 5:41am
Quoting LuckyMind
Actually find this chart very nice, want to analyze it. What happens at bar 2? It's bullish volume, since we go up, right? And this volume same to bar 1, so he canceled bar 1 weakness? {image}
Hi, I would like to see two things here, to analyze market properly.

First - at the right side values, when they are cut off we cant see if there are any important levels with orders present (typically 100 and 50 lines).

Second - we can name bars here although it would be only exercies in ... bar naming, not market analysis. We have not here important information about situation on higher TF. So there should be a situation on H1, maybe above to see this setup in the context of the market, because according to this higher TF volume bars on this TF will have different meaning (weight). When we have only one TF we dont have this important information.

1. - SCI - weakness.
2. - sharp move down (good, we are looking for signals of exhaustion or supply coming in an up move)
2. - bar - demand appears (so we will have possible move up)
3. - this bar is a SQ (squeeze) - spread smaller than predecesor, volume higher = supply is coming to the market - weakness, signal for short)
4. - No Demand - second signal of weakness (exhaustion of a move up, signal for a short)
5. - UT - signal for a short.

Suppose this magenta line is a resistance line - 1-5 would be a excellent place for a short ONLY if we are in a strong trend down and this move up is on bearish volume on higher TF. Because generally we might be still (or we are) in an uptrend on this TF, so weak bars mean less than strong.

In case we are in an uptrend I would like to see bar 2 as a signal of strength back on the market - this bar could signify that we should look for No Supply or Tests and longs (although this corrective then move down is too short).

To sum it all up - higher TF give us a bigger picture and additional sense (edge) to all volume signals on lower TF, making them less or more probable. Without this context this play is too risky to trade, at least for me.
  • #28,109
  • Dec 8, 2016 6:59am Dec 8, 2016 6:59am
Quoting pres78
{quote} No a hidden test can't be a down bar. If it's a hidden test it's an up bar otherwise it's would be a regular test. I distinguish them because I have rules for how they must print. I want tests to be testing something. ND is treated differently. Also a test in its most basic form is not test for sellers and is know as a possible SOS not a SOW. They only become SOW once they fail.
Got you.
Since
Quote
Also a test in its most basic form is not test for sellers and is know as a possible SOS not a SOW.
hidden test not a hidden, if it is down.

But if would think that test could be for selling purpose too, it would be hiden on down bar.
  • #28,110
  • Dec 8, 2016 7:15am Dec 8, 2016 7:15am
Quoting Trotty
{quote} Yep, there's buying on that candle, hence the volume and the subsequent bullish action. There can't be any sense of one candle cancelling the other though, they are at different phases in the move, at different trading times and the bars are different lengths (the spread of 2 in larger than 1 so less volume per pip on 2 than 1). The sharp move down to 2 (sharper than up to 1, less candles/bars in it) and then the weak retracement failing to close higher than the high of 2 after quite a few candles, is all the evidence you need as to where...
I understand, thank you!

Quote
Hi, I would like to see two things here, to analyze market properly.

First - at the right side values, when they are cut off we cant see if there are any important levels with orders present (typically 100 and 50 lines).

Second - we can name bars here although it would be only exercies in ... bar naming, not market analysis. We have not here important information about situation on higher TF. So there should be a situation on H1, maybe above to see this setup in the context of the market, because according to this higher TF volume bars on this TF will have different meaning (weight). When we have only one TF we dont have this important information.

1. - SCI - weakness.
2. - sharp move down (good, we are looking for signals of exhaustion or supply coming in an up move)
2. - bar - demand appears (so we will have possible move up)
3. - this bar is a SQ (squeeze) - spread smaller than predecesor, volume higher = supply is coming to the market - weakness, signal for short)
4. - No Demand - second signal of weakness (exhaustion of a move up, signal for a short)
5. - UT - signal for a short.

Suppose this magenta line is a resistance line - 1-5 would be a excellent place for a short ONLY if we are in a strong trend down and this move up is on bearish volume on higher TF. Because generally we might be still (or we are) in an uptrend on this TF, so weak bars mean less than strong.

In case we are in an uptrend I would like to see bar 2 as a signal of strength back on the market - this bar could signify that we should look for No Supply or Tests and longs (although this corrective then move down is too short).

To sum it all up - higher TF give us a bigger picture and additional sense (edge) to all volume signals on lower TF, making them less or more probable. Without this context this play is too risky to trade, at least for me.

Hello, I hope your trip was good
I remember, that you told be, that nice strategy is to look for clear up/down move and only then trade.
Also according to screenshoot - you are really right.
And looking at charts i find this is pretty simple and logical.
I'm trying to simplify it, and this is what i got :
We can find result first, like a bar 2 at my chart. That we are goiing to look further back. If dont see effort - it wasn't result. But if we do (like bar 1 at my chart high vol and no move up) - so obviously it was effort to move (sown at my chart). And now we are free to trade (sell at my chart ).
I think it is quite tricky
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  • #28,111
  • Edited 11:47am Dec 8, 2016 11:27am | Edited 11:47am
Quoting LuckyMind
{quote} We can find result first, like a bar 2 at my chart. That we are goiing to look further back. If dont see effort - it wasn't result. But if we do (like bar 1 at my chart high vol and no move up) - so obviously it was effort to move (sown at my chart). And now we are free to trade (sell at my chart ). I think it is quite tricky {image}
Hi L-M

1.

Result might be without effort so I believe your logic is flawed, see No Buyers Present bar as an example.

2.

I see problem here that you are trying to analyze the market but you dont see the bigger picture, so it is only an exercise in bar naming, nothing really useful in trading.

3.

If you want to use VSA study how they (I mean VSA educators) trade VSA, not how they teach it.

First rule is to study one or two TF (setup charts) above your trigger chart. You should have there serious signs of weakness. Then go to M5 and look to signals of weakness at the end of corrective moves. This is how they trade it:

A. Signals on higher TF (setup charts),
B. go to smaller TF, signals of weakness (too risky to enter the market if you are a beginner),
C. move down (must be present),
D. signals of weakness on bearish volume during a move up (triggers of entry on a trigger chart).

In short - find a strong trend down on H4/H1 (setup chart) look at the move up on lesser volume, See M30/M15 and signals there, wait for a move down (Gotcha bar comes to mind) and then on M5 look for a signals of weakness on moves up (on bearish volume) - triggers of entry. If you look only at single chart as above all signals have no context, you will not know if you should take long or short. It is only a trigger chart - without bigger picture, you dont have any analysis on a trigger chart, it is simply waiting for a certain trigger to enter the market.

4.

And here is an answer to your question about comparing volumes, if volume in bar 2 cancels signal in bar 1. And the answer is no, because we weight these two bars differently - according to the situation in higher TF (in context as it is said in VSA). Context comes (simplifying a bit) from the higher timeframes.

5.

To sum it up:

Gavin Holmes, when he trades, he uses two higher TF as setup charts. If you learn from slides without this context your process of learning VSA will be long and painful (speaking from experience here) and it is not necessary.

Hope this helps, sorry for sometimes strange English, it is not my primary language.
  • #28,112
  • Dec 8, 2016 11:34am Dec 8, 2016 11:34am
Hi Everyone,

Just joined FF but have been trading for over 8 years now and came across this thread. Have studied and used VSA for about 4 years so hoping to add any nuggets of wisdom when I can. But also keen to learn more when I can and pleased to find myself here.

Got some reading and catching up to do that's for sure....1406 pages!!!
  • #28,113
  • Dec 8, 2016 12:42pm Dec 8, 2016 12:42pm
Quoting Fred-IV
{quote} Hi L-M 1. Result might be without effort so I believe your logic is flawed, see No Buyers Present bar as an example. 2. I see problem here that you are trying to analyze the market but you dont see the bigger picture, so it is only an exercise in bar naming, nothing really useful in trading. 3. If you want to use VSA study how they (I mean VSA educators) trade VSA, not how they teach it. First rule is to study one or two TF (setup charts) above your trigger chart. You should have there serious signs of weakness. Then go to M5 and look to...
I belive i can use higher TF just for zones. Like for GU right now
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  • #28,114
  • Dec 8, 2016 5:08pm Dec 8, 2016 5:08pm
Quoting pres78
{quote} There is no one answer to that question. The general theory is that seeing lack of volume approaching a trend line or zone or level or whatever shows lack of interest. Lack of interest typically means the level will hold.
Thx for the asnwer thats was very insightful to me.. btw nice topic you did, im taking a read on it also
  • #28,115
  • Dec 8, 2016 6:56pm Dec 8, 2016 6:56pm
Quoting Fred-IV
{quote} In short - find a strong trend down on H4/H1 (setup chart) look at the move up on lesser volume, See M30/M15 and signals there, wait for a move down (Gotcha bar comes to mind) and then on M5 look for a signals of weakness on moves up (on bearish volume) - triggers of entry. If you look only at single chart as above all signals have no context, you will not know if you should take long or short. It is only a trigger chart - without bigger picture, you dont have any analysis on a trigger chart, it is simply waiting for a certain trigger to...
when taking background into context at higher TF's like weekly, daily, H4/H1 you guys look at forex volume? or futures volume?
  • #28,116
  • Edited 6:12am Dec 9, 2016 5:39am | Edited 6:12am
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Hey guys, great volume thread! I'm currently re-reading about the Better Volume indicator and wondering could anyone please tell me what is a low churn bar (white) and what it means in the market please? thanks in advance for any pointers!
  • #28,117
  • Dec 9, 2016 6:59am Dec 9, 2016 6:59am
EURAUD simple short.

Strong selling day yesterday. LO today (red line and yellow 1hr zone), we break the low, test the mid, take out the low again and hit the low this time on a complete lack of demand. Short on a break of the low. Trailed down and closed out as shown. Trade was 15 pip SL and a ended off with a little better than 60 pips gained so a nice 4+:1.
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Today's zone = Tomorrow's opportunity!
  • #28,118
  • Dec 9, 2016 11:09am Dec 9, 2016 11:09am
Quoting odines
{quote} when taking background into context at higher TF's like weekly, daily, H4/H1 you guys look at forex volume? or futures volume?
Hi Odines,

Thought I could help with this query....a short answer would be, you can look at either. Long answer, there will be some who say you cant use Forex volume as its not reliable. In my experience and through my learnings of VSA, they are both reliable and I'll explain why in a minute. Futures volume is the number of contracts traded for any particular timeframe. Forex uses the number of transactions traded. With Forex, you might see 1000 for the volume bar. That will mean there will be 1000 transactions for that bar. One transaction could be worth 100,000 or it could be worth 1,000,000. Its still a transaction. Whereas Futures, you will see 23,478. That would be the number of contracts traded in that timeframe.

The easiest way I earned to break it down, would be not to look at it in terms of volume but in terms of ACTIVITY. Ask yourself, why is there a lot of activity on this bar at this level? Why is there no activity at this level? Match that up with the bar i.e. up bar, down bar, where it is in terms of the trend etc. and it starts to make a bit more sense. That is how it is always explained through VSA, think of it as activity. If you're active, you are doing something. If you are not active, you are not doing something. Same with the markets. If there is no activity, then it means the professionals (or those who can trade large size) are not active. Why? Because they don't want to buy at higher prices, sell at lower prices etc.

Look at it this way and which one to use becomes obsolete.

I hope that helps. Bit longer then I wanted it to be, but wanted to give a thorough explanation.
  • #28,119
  • Dec 11, 2016 7:53am Dec 11, 2016 7:53am
Quoting TraderDre
{quote} Hi Odines, Thought I could help with this query....a short answer would be, you can look at either. .
ty for the enlightening answer
  • #28,120
  • Dec 13, 2016 2:46am Dec 13, 2016 2:46am
Quoting pres78
EURAUD simple short. Strong selling day yesterday. LO today (red line and yellow 1hr zone), we break the low, test the mid, take out the low again and hit the low this time on a complete lack of demand. Short on a break of the low. Trailed down and closed out as shown. Trade was 15 pip SL and a ended off with a little better than 60 pips gained so a nice 4+:1. {image}
Hi Pres! May I ask you to share that volume indicator? It looks clean and simple
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