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Is anyone here an institutional trader?

  • #1,121
  • Jul 19, 2016 11:15am Jul 19, 2016 11:15am
Quoting disker23
{quote} It depends on what you're trading, but books are cleared and adjusted throughout the day, especoally when Tokyo opens after the,euro and us session. If trading futures, options expiration om every third friday of the month is a liquidation and huge manipulation time. Sometimes es mini expiration has trillions of dollars of positions so crrtain syrike pricrs can make or break people and friends help eachother etc. Institutional levels are inventory levels where they are accumulating large positions and they will buy everything they can at...
You could make a living on this strategy alone. I suggest looking back to sunday open on any instrument and see if you notice anything.
  • #1,122
  • Jul 22, 2016 12:29pm Jul 22, 2016 12:29pm
Hi Skenobi,

What is your opinion on tunnel trading? Have you ever seen anyone using this type of trading?



Thanks
Attached File(s)
File Type: pdf Vegas 1 Hour Tunnel Method.pdf   47 KB | 791 downloads
  • #1,123
  • Jul 22, 2016 1:22pm Jul 22, 2016 1:22pm
Quoting strbac
Hi Skenobi, What is your opinion on tunnel trading? Have you ever seen anyone using this type of trading? Thanks {image}
You should let me tackle this one, but I will need time to explain it all in another post. I will tell you that there are some very, very interesting numbers and ideas about the 'Fibonacci' sequence as well as EMA's (Exponential moving averages). The system itself is somewhat irrelevant because the tunnel he's referring to without even consciously being aware of is a Liquidity Vacuum. I could really write a great deal about this, more later.
  • #1,124
  • Jul 22, 2016 1:26pm Jul 22, 2016 1:26pm
Oh god I am going to have to write a short book about this to explain it, so close, but without the understanding of the actual cause of the 'Fibonnaci' sequence. Uhhhg.
  • #1,125
  • Jul 24, 2016 8:46pm Jul 24, 2016 8:46pm
Quoting strbac
Hi Skenobi, What is your opinion on tunnel trading? Have you ever seen anyone using this type of trading? Thanks {image}
This is a thread about institutional trading. Maybe not the best place to request a systems review? I recommend posting a new thread in Trading Systems.

To answer your question directly tho, asking other people for their opinion or their review on a system or method is probably not a useful exercise as traders have varying risk-taking profiles. Best to forward test your intended system under review using a small live account to check whether it suits your personality.

Good luck!
I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm not in the "convincing" business.
  • #1,126
  • Jul 25, 2016 2:30am Jul 25, 2016 2:30am
Quoting skenobi
{quote} This is a thread about institutional trading. Maybe not the best place to request a systems review? I recommend posting a new thread in Trading Systems. To answer your question directly tho, asking other people for their opinion or their review on a system or method is probably not a useful exercise as traders have varying risk-taking profiles. Best to forward test your intended system under review using a small live account to check whether it suits your personality. Good luck!
Thank you Skenobi.

I actually just wanted to know is this kind of system used by any of institutional traders, nothing more. Don't need a review.
  • #1,127
  • Sep 29, 2016 8:25am Sep 29, 2016 8:25am
I am trying to learn some forex micro structure, I hope some institutional traders can shed some light on these question

1) is it true that retail order can't move the market no matter how large , as retail order is not marketable in interbank, and the price movement is cause by the real supply and demand in the interbank market?

2) When a MM receive customers buy order, that means MM is selling, which direction do they shade the price? Will they lower their bid and ask so that someone will hit the other side and square their position with a profit?

3)How do MM shade price? do all the MM shade price in the same direction together? If they don't shade in the same direction and only shade by their book, that means there are different price for the same instrument? How wide can the price discrepancy go to?

4)How do MM do price discovery with bid and ask? I often see quick test to lower boundary and upper boundary in a range, before breaking off violently into one direction, are MM testing to see which side is stronger , and trying to collect as many order as possible and going to the direction which is in their favor?

Thank You anyone who help, teach me if u can, correct me if I am wrong
  • #1,128
  • Sep 29, 2016 10:55pm Sep 29, 2016 10:55pm
Quoting GoldenFinger
I am trying to learn some forex micro structure,
Does learning this help you make money?

Quoting GoldenFinger
1) is it true that retail order can't move the market no matter how large ,
Unless your retail order is a real amount (i.e. NOT leveraged) and the size can buy, say, a few Airbus airliners, then the answer to your "is it true" question is "YES".

Quoting GoldenFinger
as retail order is not marketable in interbank, and the price movement is cause by the real supply and demand in the interbank market?
A normal retail order is not JUST not marketable; it also does not show up in the Real Market (not yet anyway, no matter what anyone tells you). Retail traders are just punting over prices decided by real traders. If you have seen the film "The Sting", you'll get the idea.

Quoting GoldenFinger
2) When a MM receive customers buy order, that means MM is selling, which direction do they shade the price? Will they lower their bid and ask so that someone will hit the other side and square their position with a profit?
When a MM receives a buy order, it usually means the customer has already seen the MM's 2-way quote and is "taking" the MM's offer. This means there's nothing more for the MM to shade; the customer is holding the MM firm on his offer price. The only time a MM will shade is in the event a customer is asking for a fresh quote, and the MM will shade according to what he thinks the customer wants to do. Half the time, the MM doesn't bother shading anything because throughout the day he will have enough interest in his bids and offers and he'll make money from the spread regardless.

Quoting GoldenFinger
3)How do MM shade price?
Where I come from, on feel. If you think that's an unsatisfying answer, I suggest you read a book on basic negotiating. All those negotiating principles are practiced within the few minutes (if not seconds) a trade is requested and transacted.

Quoting GoldenFinger
do all the MM shade price in the same direction together?
No.

Quoting GoldenFinger
If they don't shade in the same direction and only shade by their book, that means there are different price for the same instrument?
Not for long, and it doesn't matter.

The market bid will gravitate to the best bid in the market and the market offer will gravitate to the best offer in the market, all in a matter of seconds (in the case of interbank spot FX)

Quoting GoldenFinger
How wide can the price discrepancy go to?
Not relevant due to the answer to last question.

Quoting GoldenFinger
4)How do MM do price discovery with bid and ask?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_discovery

Quoting GoldenFinger
I often see quick test to lower boundary and upper boundary in a range, before breaking off violently into one direction, are MM testing to see which side is stronger , and trying to collect as many order as possible and going to the direction which is in their favor?
This is not price discovery.

Anyways, if you haven't read the thread from the beginning, I encourage you to do so soonest. It's only been 57 pages so far.
I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm not in the "convincing" business.
  • #1,129
  • Sep 29, 2016 11:18pm Sep 29, 2016 11:18pm
Hi Skenobi

It has been a while. I hope you are doing well.

Could you say if, from your experience, this is a fair representation of what's going on in the markets?
Inserted Video


Thank you.

Cheers
Demo only
  • #1,130
  • Sep 30, 2016 1:18am Sep 30, 2016 1:18am
Quoting bg_sunny
Hi Skenobi It has been a while. I hope you are doing well. Could you say if, from your experience, this is a fair representation of what's going on in the markets? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klTUBhVvlhs Thank you. Cheers
No.
I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm not in the "convincing" business.
  • #1,131
  • Sep 30, 2016 3:40am Sep 30, 2016 3:40am
Gold, as Sken says ' is this going to help you make any money'?

I don't think so, one can become the greatest expert at how everything works behind the scenes but not be able to make any money (think University professors/PHDs). Whereas someone else might not have a clue how everything works (behind the scenes), but has good analysis of where price is likely to head. Price is going to go where it's going regardless of what market-makers do or anyone else for that matter. So analysis and concentrating on where price is likely to head is the only work most people need to do.

Anyway, who says institutional traders are collectively any good? Most in my experience really struggle if they lose their job and try to trade on their own. With institutional like most things there's a pyramid at work - a few really world class traders at the top then as you work down the numbers get larger and the skills get worse. Same in sports, pure class on both sides for today's Ryder Cup but there aren't many of them in the world like that. Go down the pyramid and the numbers get larger as the skills drop so right at the bottom you have a load of hackers that masquerade as golfers of which I am one .

Sure, there can be some monkey business but that's markets for you and who says that monkey business won't help you as you happen to be positioned the right way? It works both ways so is a bit like luck/bad luck - one cancels the other out.
Road To Wisdom? To err and err and err again, but less and less and less...
  • #1,132
  • Oct 7, 2016 4:07pm Oct 7, 2016 4:07pm
Question for the bank dealers about the pound big tank yesterday.

If somebody puts in such a huge sell order to open that would tank the market like yesterday are the banks required to fill it in such a small amount of time as yesterday?
Could the big trader have completed the trade by buying to close in such a small amount of time like yesterday on the way down ?
what do you think actually caused the big sell off?
Never said I was Batman,all I'm saying is you'll never see us together.
  • #1,133
  • Oct 8, 2016 5:47am Oct 8, 2016 5:47am
The pound sold off the day before. The plunge was simply a continuation of that. To understand the market it pays to understand Karl Marx's material dialecticism. Paradox? Think of the markets as history. With our technology, we now engage its capitalist phase.
The road to pipland is arduous and fraught with challenge.
  • #1,134
  • Oct 8, 2016 10:35am Oct 8, 2016 10:35am
Slooooowerrrrrrr .................


Inserted Video
  • #1,135
  • Oct 8, 2016 4:06pm Oct 8, 2016 4:06pm
Quoting traider
The pound sold off the day before. The plunge was simply a continuation of that. To understand the market it pays to understand Karl Marx's material dialecticism. Paradox? Think of the markets as history. With our technology, we now engage its capitalist phase.
That said, there are clearly those who have a good instinct for this function or else no one would be making money at this game. Consequently, find a good system (and there are a few lurking in here), perfect you connection with the markets and perservere with this very accessible entry into the game.

The institutionals who have prospered at this game would be good mentors (I follow their comments avidly in a bid to improve my connection with the data) so this is definitely a worthwhile business given the resources that many kindly provide for free. Of course, there are the professional teachers around so one has to be discriminatory. Good luck.
The road to pipland is arduous and fraught with challenge.
  • #1,136
  • Oct 9, 2016 7:26am Oct 9, 2016 7:26am
Quoting headfake
If somebody puts in such a huge sell order to open that would tank the market like yesterday
It doesn't need a huge deal size. Sometimes a small GBP 10 mio hit in thin market conditions would've been enough.

Quoting headfake
are the banks required to fill it in such a small amount of time as yesterday?
Whoever put in the bid in the system (in the event a punter sold at the bid) AND did not remove the bid, is obliged to fill the deal.

"My word is my bond" still means something in this crooked age.

Quoting headfake
Could the big trader have completed the trade by buying to close in such a small amount of time like yesterday on the way down ?
Which "big trader"? The seller who sold? Or the lucky bastard who placed the bid?

Quoting headfake
what do you think actually caused the big sell off?
Path of least resistance was obviously down. The only logical long-term trade was to sell GBPUSD. It could be any number of reasons.

Maybe orders in EBS were taken off by their respective owners coincidentally at the same time (for whatever reason) until maybe there was only a small cluster of bids left in the market at the low end of the bid spectrum. Maybe some algo saw that and thought the market crashed and then hit a bid in that cluster.
I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm not in the "convincing" business.
  • #1,137
  • Oct 9, 2016 11:56am Oct 9, 2016 11:56am
Amazing thread, thanks a lot for sharing your experience.

Question for the pros. How would you say the institutional trading have evolved during, let's say, the last 10 years? I understand that algos is a big part of modern trading. Is the traders on the floor now more like an operator of the algos, or do they still do "manual" trading?
  • #1,139
  • Oct 9, 2016 10:01pm Oct 9, 2016 10:01pm
Quoting ccr
Hidden
The market is objective so it cannot be manipulated with any real impact on the flow of its structure.. Thus, when it is, it simply reverts back to its core flow. So one can trade either with some skill and I am sure there are many roads to this, or struggle.
The road to pipland is arduous and fraught with challenge.
  • #1,140
  • Edited 10:54pm Oct 9, 2016 10:07pm | Edited 10:54pm
just ...close .... another case .....

ps .... nice bull ....
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