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  • #3,442
  • Edited 4:38am Aug 15, 2016 3:43am | Edited 4:38am
Quoting lKeithStone
{quote} Here is where I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you. Using Tick/Range/Renko/Point Original charts is JUST another way to view price. You can still see major levels, you can still use trend-lines/Channels/Wedges. I do respect your opinion. I will definitely keep what you've said in mind. Hopefully I didn't come off rude as that was not my intention.
Inaccurate Trendlines/Channels, etc in Tick/Renko/Henki Ashi/Range, etc. charts
Not a problem about the disagreement. But perhaps you are not aware of the following issues with Tick/Henki Ashi/Range/Renko charts etc as your above quotes mentioned that you can still use trend-lines/channels/wedges with them which I disagree with because trendlines/Channels, etc can appear very differently in time-based charts and other chart formats like Tick/Henki Ashi/Range/Renko charts.

The reason that trendlines work, either as support or break, is because big institutional traders use them. When price approaches a trendline, it bounces because big traders place orders there. When a trendline is broken, big traders may play the trendline break and thus many times you can see that there is a sharp drop in price once a trendline is broken because institutional traders/MMs execute orders in the other direction, causing and aggravating the trendline break. And these trendlines are drawn in time-based charts. If you want to have the same trendlines drawn as the big institutional traders, then you want to use time-based charts.

From your above quotes perhaps you are assuming that the trendlines drawn using Tick/Henki Ashi/Range/Renko,etc charts are the same as using time-based charts. I think even some experienced traders are not aware of the following facts when it comes to drawing their trendlines/channels/wedges. In time-based charts, the time it takes each bar to form is the same and since x-axis on the chart is TIME, it makes total sense that all bars are assigned the same width. But in Tick/Henki Ashi/Range/Renko, etc charts, the time that it takes to form each bar vary, and this variation can be very LARGE at times. However, x-axis in those charts is still TIME, but each bar is still assigned the same width on the horizontal axis. When you connect the end points of different bars and form your trendline in these kinds of charts, things are being thrown off and the angles of the trendlines can be very different from those drawn in time-based charts, and thus the trendlines drawn in the same period between time-based charts and Renko/Tick/Range/Henki Ashi charts can be very different from each other. Most of the time a trendline support (or trendline break) in a tick/renko/range charts etc is not a trendline support (or trendline break) in a time-based chart at all. If your strategy/edge involves heavily a trendline support/break as signals then you will be completely screwed using Tick/Henki Ashi/Range/Renko charts. Or if you just use them as confirmation then it still throws everything off. A buy signal might actually not be a buy signal at all because the confirmation of a trendline support is false. The reason is that a trendline support is only a support because big institutional traders see them with their time-based charts and then place their orders there, and if other chart formats are used, then your trendlines are not helping you since the trendline support/break in those charts is not necessarily a price support/break at all.
  • #3,443
  • Aug 15, 2016 3:47am Aug 15, 2016 3:47am
Quoting cigarguy
{quote} Thanks again for your insightful posts and your comments are welcomed
You are very welcome. Kind of a late reply to you as I visit this site seldomly and it has been almost 3 weeks since I last visited.
  • #3,444
  • Aug 15, 2016 3:53am Aug 15, 2016 3:53am
Quoting cigarguy
One other point if I may and probably the MOST SATISFYING AND IMPORTANT; I have received PM's from traders through time located in various 3rd World Countries who have said "Just by learning to make a few pips as extra money has provided money for their Families they did not have before and has given them a better life".
Your intention is good but I think it might not be a good/satisfying thing if a few pips of extra money has given some people a better life in 3rd World Countries. To me they shouldn't be trading at all. Speculators/Traders have their roles in the economy but still most people should not or cannot be speculators/traders. And in 3rd World Countries their priority shouldn't be in trading, especially when you mentioned that a few pips of money has given them a better life, as this means the other way around a few pips of loss can cause them some big troubles, and a couple hundred of pips of accumulated loss is a big disaster or life changing event to them or their whole families. We all know that such a loss can easily happen in today's market.


No offense to you Cigarguy and the above is just my personal view
  • #3,445
  • Aug 15, 2016 4:08am Aug 15, 2016 4:08am
Quoting cigarguy
Just to be clear, I am not suggesting to change our current PVSRA system but only playing with this tick idea...... All Comments welcomed as always and any trader with knowledge of a tick indicator that will work with our PVSRA charts and not as a stand alone that could provide that information will be appreciated.... Stay GREEN and KEEP IT SIMPLE.... Cigarguy
Hi Cigarguy, See my above reply to lKeithStone and it contains information about using other forms of chart and perhaps you will get some useful info there

Most institutional traders including myself regard those non-time based charts as some forms of indicators. Hints: If these Renko, Tick, Henki Ashi, Range Bars provide added value , why don't the majority of institutional traders use them? (from my own experience I seldom see one using them). And if this PVSRA method that you guys are using is to try to follow the big players, which of the 2 following methods do you think will have a higher chance of a positive return (in relative term)? The first method is, with the help of the methodology in this thread, buy/sell at the break of a high/low of the 1-hr candle of the London or Tokyo Open. The second method is to buy/sell at the break of a high/low of a Tick/Renko/Henki Ashi/Range candle? Of course it's the FIRST ONE. Why? Because as institutional traders, each session start (e.g. Tokyo Open, London Open) is important to us and for intraday we use time-based charts like hourly chart and depending on strategies some institutional traders do play a break at the high/low of a candle but these candles are time-based candles. Institutional traders place big orders and if you are in sync with them then you are riding with them, which I think is the theme of this PVSRA method. Imagine that you can go into the mindset of institutional traders, do you really think it will be like, "let's buy at the break of the high of the next Renko/Tick/Henki Ashi/Range candle"? What is your chance of having in-sync with their big orders to buy/sell at such a break? Very unlikely, because institutional traders are NOT looking at a Renko/Tick/Henki Ashi/Range chart and so such a "break" almost has no chance to be in-sync with the big orders of the institutions. This is just one example out of many, but you get the idea that it's much harder to guess what the institutional traders are planning if the tools you are using/looking are different from them.

And as well, the moving averages will be off because moving averages on time based charts are different from those on Tick/Renko/Henki Ashi/Range charts. Notice that institutional traders do use key Moving Averages as one of the their tools and so with other chart forms your moving average support/break will also will out-of-line with the big players. Together with the reasons I explained in my above post about why Trendline/Channels/Wedges only work well with time-based charts, you will understand why almost all institutional traders stick with time-based charts only.

Good Trading to All.
  • #3,446
  • Edited 4:31am Aug 15, 2016 4:19am | Edited 4:31am
Quoting cigarguy
I'm by no means unhappy with our current PVSRA candle set, but on slow week ends I sometimes get bored and attempt to stir the pot.........I can't help it as I forgot to read my Mantra "If it ain't broke, don"t fix it"......it's a personality defect....... .
Before my retirement I worked many hours each week and have almost no time browsing forums. After my retirement I occasionally visit them as some threads are funny/interesting which I spend some time for some entertaining values . In trading forums I have to say 99% of the strategies don't work. A lot of time it's blind leading blind that lead to nowhere. I noticed that, for the 99% of strategies that don't work, and the 1% that perhaps work, have a common theme that, as time goes on, people will start to add indicators, change something, refine here and there while adding no real values to their trading methods. People (and they include some new/inexperienced institutional traders in both forex/equity space) always like to add/tweak stuffs to their trading methods for the sake of adding more control or feeling more secure about their methodologies, and most of the time they are just looking for a "false sense of control" or "a false sense of security" and it is something that aspired traders should try to avoid.

Not sure if this thread is going into that direction because when format of charts, trendline/channels, moving averages are all off (as explained in above posts) and deviate from the institutional perspective, it seems that the OP is diverting from what's already working (in my opinion). Not sure if this thread (from the OP's perspective) is intended for both the experienced and the newbies but I believe it will be confusing for newbies.
  • #3,447
  • Aug 15, 2016 4:30am Aug 15, 2016 4:30am
Quoting cigarguy
{quote} I think we all tend to over complicate and that is why I frequently post KEEP IT SIMPLE not only for others to remember but for me as well......
Agree. Keeping it simple is always the KEY. One big mistake of many traders is that they all tend to over-tweak things and head to a wrong direction, and then they tweak some more and get into a vicious cycle and things get even worse than the original. This applies to both retail and some institutional traders.
  • #3,448
  • Aug 15, 2016 6:24am Aug 15, 2016 6:24am
EU +18 Pips, Its EU holiday so expected the morning to be slow, noticed they keep buying at DOL. We was above 200ma and kept bounce off.
SL just below range in case of a breakout lower.
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  • #3,449
  • Aug 15, 2016 7:01am Aug 15, 2016 7:01am
EU +5 pips, as we approach DOL again volume increased, we got another bounce off 200ma and a bull volume bar.
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  • #3,450
  • Aug 15, 2016 8:10am Aug 15, 2016 8:10am
Quoting Ex-Banker
{quote} Agree. Keeping it simple is always the KEY. One big mistake of many traders is that they all tend to over-tweak things and head to a wrong direction, and then they tweak some more and get into a vicious cycle and things get even worse than the original. This applies to both retail and some institutional traders.
Ex-Banker,

Thank you for all of your above posts. I have been trading for many years as well and totally agree with most of your comments and the couple I disagree with are so insignificant no discussion needed.

I appreciate your insight into trading time based charts vs. all others. You brought out some characteristics regarding time based trading in relation to TL's and institutional methodology in respect to support and resistance areas for entries and exits that I gleamed as little GOLDEN NUGGETS. I always appreciate any and all information as to how the Smart Money trades as a found treasure offering the astute trader additional insight into their hushed world and methods.

You are also right on with your above comment..... As do most traders, I fight this temptation daily especially on slow days or week ends with too much time on my hands........

Thanks again and regards,
Cigarguy
Keep It Simple
  • #3,451
  • Aug 15, 2016 8:11am Aug 15, 2016 8:11am
Quoting josh11
EU +5 pips, as we approach DOL again volume increased, we got another bounce off 200ma and a bull volume bar. {image}
josh11,

Nice trades as you picked up on PVSRA scalping rather quickly.....Good Job....
Keep It Simple
  • #3,452
  • Aug 15, 2016 8:16am Aug 15, 2016 8:16am
Quoting cigarguy
{quote} josh11, Nice trades as you picked up on PVSRA scalping rather quickly.....Good Job....
Thanks mate, its all down to you and this great thread... I am still learning and any losses, I get I will post for advise from you and others. ty
  • #3,453
  • Aug 15, 2016 8:18am Aug 15, 2016 8:18am
Quoting josh11
{quote} Thanks mate, its all down to you and this great thread... I am still learning and any losses, I get I will post for advise from you and others. ty
Keep It Simple
  • #3,454
  • Aug 15, 2016 8:22am Aug 15, 2016 8:22am
Nice to see saiffx in the house as he was one of our first scalpers from post #1 and worked many hours on our OrdeOnChart EA.......Welcome back.....
Keep It Simple
  • #3,455
  • Aug 15, 2016 8:38am Aug 15, 2016 8:38am
EU +5 pips, bounce off 200ma, nice pinbar with volume off dragon.
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  • #3,456
  • Aug 15, 2016 8:40am Aug 15, 2016 8:40am
UJ M1 FIFO scalp +35 (avg. +3.5 @ 10 lots) See chart.......If PVSRA scalpers have not added the DO line I uploaded earlier, you may want to, as It often is respected as a S & R by institutional traders.......
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Keep It Simple
  • #3,457
  • Edited 9:04am Aug 15, 2016 8:53am | Edited 9:04am
As I have posted prior, an astute trader should learn to observe and recognize these phases. They occur over and over and you can see how the sneaky MM's attempt to run PA up slowly in the Mark Up phase attempting to disguise this intentional move and then WHACK PA down where they want it. .....These moves can best be seen by looking at the broader view and loose tunnel vision.......

It is of course up to the trader to decide; Do I want to follow lagging squiggly lines for entries and exits that don't work or do I want to learn a profession and trade as a professional institutional trader with the Smart Money.......To me that's a NO BRAINER, But?.........
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Keep It Simple
  • #3,458
  • Aug 15, 2016 9:04am Aug 15, 2016 9:04am
Quoting Ex-Banker
{quote} Inaccurate Trendlines/Channels, etc in Tick/Renko/Henki Ashi/Range, etc. charts Not a problem about the disagreement. But perhaps you are not aware of the following issues with Tick/Henki Ashi/Range/Renko charts etc as your above quotes mentioned that you can still use trend-lines/channels/wedges with them which I disagree with because trendlines/Channels, etc can appear very differently in time-based charts and other chart formats like Tick/Henki Ashi/Range/Renko charts. The reason that trendlines work, either as support or break, is because...
With my tick charts I can show you multiple times where price respected Channels/Wedges/Trendlines. I understand that big banks do not use tick charts. Can you provide any studies that have proven tick charts to be useless and provides no edge over time based charts? Or are you instantly writing them off because big banks don't use them?

Are big banks trading on 1 min charts? Do they pay attention to the 50/200 EMA on the 1 min charts? Are big banks using short term trend-lines/Wedges/Channels? I thought they traded on a higher time-frame, but I could be wrong.

When trading on the 1 min and small tick charts I'm looking for short bursts of momentum to capture small moves. A trend-line/Wedge/Channel on the daily/4 hour really has no influence on what I'm doing. Not to mention we don't know where the big banks are drawing there levels. If it's even 5 pips off from where I think it could be that is enough for a PVSRA Scalp.

It would be nice to have your insight on a few of my questions. Thanks for taking the time and sharing some knowledge.

  • #3,459
  • Edited 10:07am Aug 15, 2016 9:13am | Edited 10:07am
Quoting lKeithStone
{quote} With my tick charts I can show you multiple times where price respected Channels/Wedges/Trendlines. I understand that big banks do not use tick charts. Can you provide any studies that have proven tick charts to be useless and provides no edge over time based charts? Or are you instantly writing them off because big banks don't use them? Are big banks trading on 1 min charts? Do they pay attention to the 50/200 EMA on the 1 min charts? Are big banks using short term trend-lines/Wedges/Channels? I thought they traded on a higher time-frame,...
lKeithStone,

Good post as I advocate and appreciate informative discussions from which we all can learn. You make some good points of which the answers are kept as a secret by the institutional traders from us lowly retail traders. I hope this type of constructional dialogue will continue for all to gain insight into this hushed dark institutional trading world....

Needed to stop my post as my dog required attention....I had to feed him his favorite.....

To further add, I have been told by former institutional traders to the contrary of Ex-Banker's posts. They do trade ticks as institutions and make millions with these small tick trades trading huge lots. Furthermore, unlike other markets where inside trading is illegal, Forex institutional traders do talk to each other providing information relative to their intended price manipulation. (unconfirmed but reliable sources)

Addressing the issue of trading trend lines, channels and all the rest of the many indicators available, I personally have all of the information I need as provided with our PVSRA indicators as applied to our charts. As a scalper targeting only a 5 pip + / - profit with multiple lots, all I need is PVSRA and no more as do position traders holding trades for hours, days, weeks or months. That is a totally different animal and mind set then scalping.

Just provide me with good momentum price action from support or resistance key levels, retraces and I am a happy trader as no more needed........

Stay GREEN and Keep It Simple
Keep It Simple
  • #3,460
  • Aug 15, 2016 9:51am Aug 15, 2016 9:51am
EU +2.9 pips, bull volume bar through resistant, fast tp before whole number 1.1200.
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