Institutional Equivalent Education?

I found this post in another FF thread by Cat, it is in the Trader's Academy thread. He says they are posts from an older thread and that only the ones starting with an * are his:

*"One of the books that helped me become a better trader was Johnnie Johnson's ' Wing Commander ', an account by Britain's top scoring ace of WW2 of his exploits. In the book, he describes the mood in the pilot's mess shortly before a flying sortie against the enemy as being comprised of two types pf pilot - those who nervously checked their entire escape kits were in order - the hunted, and those who calmly walked out to their Spitfires or Hurricanes for a pre-flight check and a chat with their ground crews, leaders and wingmen - the hunters. Invariably, the former did not live long.

Cat says: I refer to this in this post because I see a great parallel between these fighter pilots of the Second World War and us traders, with the welcome exception that one's life as a trader is not on the line ( I hope! ), only one's trading account. In the five years I've been trading, one of the biggest things I've had to learn is that the forex market is neither a place for inexperience or timidity. If you have the skills to make money in this business, and by that I mean you do actually know what you are doing, then this counts for nothing if you do not combine this with aggression and conviction when the time comes to pull the trigger. Many of the biggest moves happen fast following a pullback or fake to an area or support and resistance, and the experienced trader will recognize this and act with speed and conviction, not with fear of loss or hesitation."
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"I think one of the reasons trading is so difficult is the extreme cognitive dissonance required. Most of us learn to trade under the illusion of fast and easy money but to succeed, we need to take the exact opposite position, to take small chunks consistently and be patient. We need to be ultra cautious with risk but at the same time be bold and aggressive when the market dictates. Almost every aspect of successful trading is marked with similar polar extremes which we need to switch between. Most people can do that to some extent, but only when they feel like it - to do it on an external command, ie when market conditions dictate, is incredibly difficult."

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* "It is my firm belief that one of the reasons so many traders fail to make money, apart from lacking the necessary technical ability, is because life in other areas just does not train people to be risk takers, in fact, life teaches us to be overly cautious from a very young age, a mind-set we bring into trading, but one which ultimately will lead to our downfall as traders. What we have to be able to do is throw a good deal of caution to the wind, and, like the successful fighter pilots of WW2, to fix onto our target and go for it with all guns blazing. This does not guarantee that we won't crash and burn, but it does put the odds of being a winner firmly in our favour."

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"I agree that we are not wired to take risks (as brilliantly shown by Tversky and Kahneman). Hence, taking risk/dealing with uncertainty (trading) is logically a source of psychological discomfort (cognitive dissonance)."

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"However, I think that having fear (better yet, respect) for the market is not necessarily a bad thing. In fact, it may be a very positive thing. Someone inexperienced without any fear of the market is likely to lose his/hers shirt in no time. Someone who has some fear (as long as it is not paralyzing fear) is likelier to live just long enough to learn how to survive, and possibly even to thrive at some point. I do agree that not all trades are created equal. One should not let fear prevent from trading bigger size on trades that give a higher win probability. In the end it may all come down to experience."

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"You want to be patient when u're not in a trade. You want to be aggressive when you are in the trade. Any other combination opens you up to harms way."

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* " Resurrecting this thread for this single fact about the fighter pilots of WW2, one that provides a great parallel to trading. Most of those killed had less than 100 hours actual flying time, and some of them as little as ten. The life expectancy for these novice pilots was just three days during the Battle of Britain. Compare that with the more experienced pilots, those that had been flying for a number of years and had amassed as much as a thousand hours of practice, not just of flying, but also of shooting. These pilots did significantly better and on the whole were the ones who survived the war. In trading terms, this means that if you are putting your money on the line with a live account without having put in the necessary time required to learn about the markets, then expect to get burnt. Just like the fighter pilots of WW2, the overall majority of traders who blow their accounts and who don't come back to trading as a result, are those without the experience and knowledge required. "
Be bold, but first be wise.

From an earlier thread by Cat called 'Why thinking is bad for your trading':

Timestamp says: It's no coincidence that there's a word for it - overthinking. In trading it's one of the main problems for those that are analytical and more methodic - markets are the opposite of this, but to understand their basic functionalities you need to be analytical in the first place. So a bit of a conflict there, but one that can be overcome with time.

Cat says: I like it - to learn how to trade you have to analyse, but then to become successful at it you have to stop analyzing - the ultimate contradiction

Ian we have always had our difference and I personally think your a bit of putz but don't take that personally. I don't like many people it is just my personality and in general I think most retail traders are annoying BUT I still deeply care about your success as a trader. You were one of my students and I want every student that I teach or have taught to make money and be successful. I sincerely do !

Nothing in this world makes me happier then seeing my students make money and live a good and happy life from Trading.

I'm not in the Compass room anymore but I can still help you if you listen to me and stop over thinking things.

Step 1 You are not broken ! Accept that everything that you feel and do when you trade is normal. That being said there are things that you need to get better at doing and things you need to stop doing.

Step 2 Stop trading so much. Forex markets just do not have that many opportunities to make money as people think they do at least not for retail traders (for all the reasons you already know). You have to only trade premium opportunities . There is a reason Ray trades other markets like treasuries and indexs. I know ray encourages people to only trade one market till they become successful but I completely disagree with this for certain personality types. I think this is a very bad idea for people that have issue with being wrong.

Step 3 Trade a fek of a lot smaller size, a lot smaller !!!

You also know what I think of my Emotional Journal and consistently doing it so that is a given.

One last little thing that I hope you listen to me about. Stop reading all the psychology books. Learn to breathe when you trade and you will do much better at managing your positions.

You will probably ignore me like you always do and continue to think that there is some magic tool that Ray hasn't taught you to use yet that is holding you back because that is what "smart people" think trading is. I've said it before and I will say it again.

I rather be rich then smart and that is what I do. I keep things as simple as possible and it works.

Good luck on your journey I do wish you all the best.

All great advice. What I got most out of Ray, which also clearly exposes the biggest flaws of the usual crappy education out there -the mediocre, was the amount of analysing I do even before looking at the charts. There always has to be a reason to trade. Before, it was just jump on the charts without thinking. But I still see people in the group not taking the full approach and just jumping into the charts. Granted there will be certain circumstances that allow for that, but then they'll get burned and jump to a different chart approach.

I don't agree that it is all great advice, but it is very good advice for the vast majority of people. Everybody is different and what suits one trader may well not suit another - otherwise everybody who read this thread would be trading the Crude Oil Inventories Release!

I know that I need to cut down on the Markets I follow, which is difficult enough for me, but worse when people ask about markets I would rather ignore. It should be easier for somebody who just needs to know enough - me I find that I tend to want to know everything.

It is interesting that StevePat advises to ignore the psychology books. I recall that when he was in the room he was much more interested in them than I was at that time. But I know that certain psychology books seem to work for certain people. The one I have chosen has a much more rigorous scientific than others I have read (and dismissed), which is just the sort of thing that will work for me (if anything will) because of my scientific/mathematical/software engineering past study/career.

Of course it is subjective. I do disagree with Steve though that the Forex market alone does not offer many opportunities. Again, depending on your style and time frames etc. For my swing trading I am working to capitalise on 11 potential scenarios this week on various cross pairs despite the slow data week. And any day trades that I have time to do will be dependent upon that other market proxy data we look at, and the usual daily market risk appetite. That's enough for me without having to sit rigid at the screen for 17 hours a day. Not everyone wants 10's of millions of $$s, just a couple for me will do.

Despite all the enthusiasm from both of you I still think you're deluding yourselves because of the money you've spent. Sorry, but this is how I see it. I've come to this conclusion from a variety of angles.

Porkpie, about a week or so I likened having a true edge in the markets to escaping a burning building. I maintained that being in possession of such an edge cuts through any psychological problems and allows you to 'flee through the door' without hesitation. You disagreed with me and said my analogy was too simple, but didn't say why. Sorry, but until you come back with something more substantive than a mere assertion then I retain my original viewpoint. I'm not just saying it to be awkward. I speak from cold hard experience. Having tried a gazillion different loser strategies in my time, I can empathise with Ian and his delayed trigger finger. Not KNOWING what the market will do next does indeed cause indecision and second guessing oneself. It is only because I do now have a very profitable approach which MAKES LOGICAL SENSE that I am able to buy or sell without that unwelcome voice of doubt inside my head. The very fact that Ian DOESN'T possess this certitude makes me conclude either:

A) He doesn't understand what Ray has taught.
or
B) What Ray teaches isn't worth anything, but he's unwilling to admit he's wasted a ton of money and time on the guy.

Given Ian's educational background and time spent with Ray's group then I am more inclined to believe the latter.

But don't just beat me up just yet! Even although what I have already stated is probably enough on its own to dismiss Ray, I have more to go on that just that. Oh yes!

Through a friend, I've been in touch with several other students of Mr McMedici. Like the two of you here, all but one are in high praise of the guy, while at the same time (and this is the important bit), none of them are profitable! Much like junkies in need of a fix, they seem intent on getting people to sign up so they can get a free month's tuition, but when it comes to the crunch, they're not making money themselves. So are they also dumb and/or possessed of psychological problems... or is the (so called) teacher to blame? ..... Don't respond just yet, for I have more evidence that this is all a bunch of codswallop and I have you, Ian, to thank...

You alerted anyone reading this thread that another of Ray's many students had opened an oil trading chatroom. I am of course talking about Mete Topcuoglu. Well, I signed up for a free trial and logged in for the first time today. As well as Mete there was yet another Ray acolyte in there, by the name of Klemen Logar. As they both sound very similar when talking I'll refer to them as Tweedledee and Tweedledum from this point on.

For the first 30 minutes that I was in the chatroom there was utter silence. I wondered if there was something up with my speakers or the system audio. On inspection I found nothing amiss. Then all of a sudden Tweedledee piped up to say he was thinking of shorting oil. There was a 5 second pause before Tweedledum chimed in to say that he was thinking of BUYING oil! LOL

Now, I realise it is wrong to base a complete assessment of Ray merely on the incompetence of his students, but if you are being objective at all - and with all the other damning evidence - you've got to admit that this is really quite laughable. And I'm still not done!...

A few seconds after Tweedledum said he was doing the exact opposite of Tweedledee, Tweedledee then falteringly said, "uuuumm... there is a lot of indecision in the markets. I won't be shorting"!!! Unbelievably, the fiasco still didn't end there! Nope. For only a couple of minutes later, Tweedledum lamented having been stopped out on his buy order due to a 'head fake', i.e. the market went down before going up again. The only thing missing was the Looney Tunes theme and Porky Pig stuttering, "b'dee, b'dee, b'dee, that's all folks."

So in conclusion, if the students are any reflection of the master then I am sorry, but Raymondo must be conducting his chatroom sessions from the dole queue.

I'm truly sorry you have wasted so much money on this chancer, Ian. All I can do is to urge you to leave while you still have some of your savings left.

Show me. I have read too many rants from people claiming to be "very profitable" only to discover later that they were nothing more than the people they make fun of: unsuccessful and broke.

It's so easy to poke at others from the sidelines. And so sad.

Step up, be a real man, show your skills and stop hiding behind lame allegations and poorly constructed criticism.

Successful people don't kick down. Nor waste time taking cheap shots at others.

I leave it up to everyone's imagination what category you fall into.

QED.

Betchad says: "Porkpie, about a week or so I likened having a true edge in the markets to escaping a burning building. I maintained that being in possession of such an edge cuts through any psychological problems and allows you to 'flee through the door' without hesitation. You disagreed with me and said my analogy was too simple, but didn't say why. Sorry, but until you come back with something more substantive than a mere assertion then I retain my original viewpoint. I'm not just saying it to be awkward. I speak from cold hard experience. Having tried a gazillion different loser strategies in my time, I can empathise with Ian and his delayed trigger finger. Not KNOWING what the market will do next does indeed cause indecision and second guessing oneself. It is only because I do now have a very profitable approach which MAKES LOGICAL SENSE that I am able to buy or sell without that unwelcome voice of doubt inside my head. The very fact that Ian DOESN'T possess this certitude makes me conclude"

I reply: Wow Betchad, suddenly you are now in possession not only of an edge that cuts through any psychological problems, but you are even able to tell us all exactly which psychological problems it is that I have. All this time and I didn't realise that my problem is just not being able to enter a trade! It all makes sense now, in order to make a winning trade, apparently I have to actually enter a trade.
This is an amazing insight.
With all the interviews and appearances that the world's media request from you, it must be difficult for you to find time to post such wisdom in my humble thread.

I will lighten your load, so that the world may gain.

Your analogy was too simple. Do I really have to explain again!

Seriously though, you go on about a couple of thousand dollars as "so much money"...wtf! What's your trade account size, $50? And then you waste time joining an oil trading group for "free" ( there's that money thing again - you don't have a psych problem with money by any chance do you? ), even though of course you have a fantastic edge yourself. By your rant it's worrying that you are seemingly getting off on this. Surely you can find better websites....

Good luck with your $50 trading account and your 'edge'. Come back when you are less delusional and realise that its better to trade with many edges.

I did wonder if "Ray McMedici" was the user 'medici' on Forex Factory. Despite a similar background in his bio to Ray (Automated Systems, Quantitative Analyst, Technical Analyst) but reading his posts so I don't think so. Coincidence though!?

Here is the thing and you are just going to have to accept it as reality. Not everyone can trade and the chances of you making a living as a trader are less then 2% in my opinion as a matter of fact after teaching over 400 students and 15 private one on one students I only can boast of 10 long term profitable students. That is it !! Yet day after day I crush the markets for 10's of thousands of dollars and every day Ray crushes the markets for a hell of alot more then me (he trades with a much bigger prop firm). So do Ray and I suck as educators ?

The answer is yes and no.

The compass room lacks real time trade calls so I do think that is a problem because what Ray teaches is all theory and the students do not actually get to see the rubber meet the road. I also think that the Compass room is very unorganized in its learning structure and that Ray teaches way to much information for retail traders so that is where I blame the educators. I also think Ray does not understand the retail trader reality he has never been a retail trader with a small account in his life and he has always traded under a salary position (from what I know I could be wrong but I don't think so).

So yes as educators (myself included) should be held responsible and we should do everything we can to help you the student and provide an environment that is best suited to learn in. This is why I left compass because I did not agree with their business model. I felt I could do a better job of providing a better learning environment and they disagreed with my ideas and concerns. No harm, no foul business is business. I wish compass nothing but success and happiness.

So now that is out of the way and we have taken responsibility for our end of why traders are not making money its your turn as a trader to take responsibility for why your not making money.

1. Your usually under-capitalized (as much as I would love to buy a Mcdonalds franchise they cost 3 to 5 million dollars that is just a fact) Why do traders think that running a trading business on a $5000 account is possible? It's fekking ridiculous and impossible. Trading requires proper capitalization and it aint $5000 its more like $50,000 plus a few years living expenses while you learn.

Grow up and deal with it !

If you want a "hobby" great, trade with $5000 but if you want a career and a long term viable business you need CAPITAL. I work with all my one on one students to get them hired at a prop firm after training with me because that is just reality.

2. Invest in proper education. Do not join any trading room or educator till you see them trade in front of your own eyes realtime. You have to be sure that traders "style" of trading is a right fit for your personality type. Stop buying nonsense just because someone promises you that their system works and they have made money from using it. The fact is that 99% of educators out there are using some sort of back tested non real time method. They can not trade it live in front of you make sure that you see what an educator can do in real time live before you invest a dime in his or her education,

3. Accept that you are at a huge disadvantage against professional prop traders, hedge funds, bank traders and real "professionals" that actually get a salary. We have tools and information that you don't. Deal with it and know the game your playing in.

4. Accept the fact that it will take you years to learn to trade and the odds are highly against your success.

5. Accept the fact that not all markets conditions are trade-able for retail traders and there will be times in your career where you are going to have losing streaks and not just a few trades. I have had 3 entire years out of 30 (not back to back but over my career) where I have lost large amounts of money, I have also had insanely successful years and some years where I barely made $20,000 the fact is that a retail traders world is NOT a steady J.O.B.


So now that we have the reality out of the way maybe we can all stop whining and bitching and get on with the facts and accept them and plan your trading career properly.I believe its improper planning and expectations that are the root of trader failure.

If I wanted to become a doctor I surely would not, not become one just because it took 7 years of school and then 3 more years of internship and about $200,000 of money. If I really wanted to be a doctor then I would accept that reality and get on with it. In the end I would be making all my money back and living the life I wanted.

Trading is the same and there is no reason it should be treated any differently then all other business ventures.

Best of luck to you.

Well I don't even know how to start to reply to this rambling and gibberish from the post above. I don't even understand who is writing it. It sounds like some delusional old man that is a student or was a student ?? I'm not really sure but here goes.

First off my grammar skills have zero to do with my trading skills but hey if you rather learn from someone that puts fancy well formed sentences and marketing together then from a profitable trader that's your prerogative. Good luck with that.

I hate this cliche because so many horrible educators use it but I think in my case as well as Rays case it is a very legitimate argument.

When you go to University and you pay $30,000 to $100,000 for education do they guarantee you a career when you graduate ?

This is the delusion of the "Forex Education Industry" that unscrupulous educators and brokers have created, not honest educators like myself and Ray. WHY the fek would you pay me to educate you and expect that you would be "guaranteed" to make money as a trader knowing everything that I have told you about how hard it is ?.

I ask to be paid for one thing and one thing only and that is to share my knowledge of 30 years as a trader. That is it, that is all. If that has value to someone they pay me if they don't like me or they don't think that's valuable then move along my services are not for you. I force no one to pay me and I make ZERO promises. As a matter of fact I spend most of my time telling them how hard this is and to "get real". However if a client is ready to accept the reality of trading then I can help them shave years off the learning curve but it still means nothing other then they have saved a boat load of time to educate themselves on their own.

So If I'm fleecing anyone so is every single University and Professional School in the world.

I am one of the most honest and real educators there is in this world and if you ever took the time to listen to Ray he is of the exact same mindset we both insists on teaching people the" realities of trading" and our whole education is based on overcoming and beating the obstacles of trading against the "big money advantage".

As far as your contempt for statistics and data goes well good luck being a trader in today's markets ruled by quants and algo's. That was one of the hardest things an old timer like me had to learn to adapt to. These days its all about numbers, statistics, data and speed. You will perish if you ignore this new fact of trading.

I do agree with one thing you have stated and that is. If your not making money listening to me or to Ray then you are wasting your time and you should search for something else that will suit your personality better. I have always said to my students "give my education a year of time and either one of two things will happen. You will either get it and start to earn a living or you will realize that trading is not the profession for you" but I don't actually believe that anymore because I have seen some of the traders I taught learn other techniques and styles of trading and do well with them. That doesn't mean that I was a bad educator or Ray was a bad educator it just means we were not the right educator for that student. It means our styles did not fit into their personality or their situation in life.

The beauty of Trading is that it has so many options for people to make money. Day Trading, Swing Trading, Scalping, Investing. There are Stocks, Forex, Futures, Derivatives.

All these options make it wide open for a trader to find his or her own niche and that is why it is also hard to make a living as a trader because you have to try so many different approaches and you will never know what will work for you personally until you try them. This again is just another one of the realities of this industry. It's nothing to fear it is just what it is and when you understand these things you can make better educated decisions as to how to spend your time and money.

Listen at the end of the day myself and I think I speak for Ray as well, only want one thing and that is our students happiness. Yes of course we want money to teach but not at the price of you being miserable or broke. There is no advantage to that for anyone. You lose time and money we get people hating us and unhappy with us and telling people around the world bad things about our services, it's just not worth it. I wish there was some magical way I could make everyone successful at trading but I can't all I can do is share what I have learned and teach them to the best of my abilities and hope for the best for them. There are just too many factors outside of my control that will effect the outcomes.

Cheers and best of luck to you sir.

I think you have a good point. And to be fair "Ray" does point out in his free webinars that he doesn't expect everyone will 'get it.' When we were at school some people were top of the classes, some were dunces at the bottom.

But when you sign up for a University or college, you are usually provided with details of the academics that work there, usually a CV with qualifications so we know who is going to be teaching us. College lecturers don't usually hide behind pseudonym's such as 'Ray' or 'Mark' (there is no such person as 'Ray DeMedici' btw). This presents a problem if I were to go for a job with say a 'prop firm.' "OK who was your mentor or who trained you?" Err 'Prop Room Ray' The likely response to that, is likely to be WTF is he? If you bought a book on trading, you rather want to know something about the author.

Dean Malone (another Compass trainer) gets a fair deal of stick on some of these forums. But he's the 'real deal' IMO He's an actual human being who I can google, lookup and contact outside of the CompassFX ecosphere. He's even a licenced broker. I think he's a great guy and have had an enjoyable time in his own trading room. I think he's provided a lot of tools that help the small retail trader, trade profitable. Inevitably though, however easy you try to make it, some people will never get it, and will retaliate with bitchy, pithy reviews on various forums. (By the way for what its worth, I suspect you can trade some of Ray's IP, with Dean's tools. For example I suspect Ray's high probability 'squeeze' trade is Dean's 'J Hook' but I have no desire to give away any of their IP for free on here).

But 'honest educators' shouldn't have to hide behind a pseudonym. For the money we are entitled to know a little more about them. And if they want to maintain privacy due to compromise agreements with various finance institutions maybe they shouldn't be in the retail education space at all?

This topic was brought up to me by other students in the class as well and I agree with you on it. I have never meet Ray personally and I only know him by Ray DeMedici as you do. That being said I personally don't really care if Daffy Duck taught me someway to make money from the market I would be thrilled as I only care about beating the markets but that's just me lol. I also agree with you about Dean Malone and I really like Dean he is a gentleman and seems to be very honest as well although I personally don't think he is a great trader on the scale of Ray I do think he is a good trader that trades very small but he is honest about that. I do see that Dean has picked up some of both mine and Rays teachings and integrated them into his own but hey I didn't invent anything and neither did Ray we both teach stuff that we have learned from other great traders of the past. We just have our own way of using and applying it. So Dean is entitled to do the same. Imitation is the greatest form of flattery.

Hi, I'm one of the eternal attendee of Ray free webinars.... I just can't get enough of how explains some ideas.
It's make me wander from time to time, if it's only "nice fancy talk" and marketing, or it's much much more beyond this nice "appearance"!

Anyway this is for you Ian:
http://news.forexlive.com/!/in-fx-pr...ising-20160214

Thx,
Cris

Hi cristy,
If the free webinars don't convince about Ray being a real Quant and Institutional Prop Desk trader, then I don't know what will. It took me only a few minutes to make up my mind, but then I had many years experience of courses and forums to compare him with.

I have see that piece by Boris and have not commented because it is true to a certain extent. Banks did used to make money in FX by giving their commercial customers a bad exchange rate. And if something is difficult to detect, gives a big advantage and isn't illegal then you must expect people to do it. If the Regulators set something up so as to allow 'gaming' the system, then there should be no complaints about those who take advantage of that.
Rather like George Osborne UK Chancellor of the Exchequer (Finance Minister) talking tough on both Personal and Corporate Tax evasion and avoidance. When His party's main contributor uses tax avoidance to the extent that he is effectively a foreign national; and that George's family company has not paid any Corporation Tax for the past 7 years (compare with Google etc.)

Boris is equally correct that Banks have been cutting back drastically on their Prop Trading operations and particularly in Forex since the Great Financial Crisis. There is more use of Algos and HFTs, yet it is still possible to do well so long as you are not trying to compete using their business models.

Since I started this thread I have always said that it was Ray teaching based upon the implications of those business models, that I found so compelling.

@Hostwey,
So you think that a person is only real if you can Google them. Well that means that most of my friends, relatives and ex-work colleagues must be fictitious.
And since when has Mark Coe been a pseudonym? Because you CAN Google him and he has never hidden his name!

Though you are correct on on thing, which is that Ray shouldn't be in the retail space. About all he gets out of it is personal satisfaction and more people to talk about the market with.

I am surprised and hurt that Betchad didn't appreciate me lightening his load. - You just can't help some people!