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  • #461
  • Jan 28, 2016 8:50pm Jan 28, 2016 8:50pm
Quoting revoli
{quote} One of the most important elements to trading successfully is state of mind. I have struggled with this in recent years due to chronic illness and needless to say it has spilt over into my trading. Trading for me is now a therapy as I use it to control my mind state. The discipline required to trade is similar to the discipline needed to manage chronic pain and illness. When I finally bit the bullet and dived into the mind state research that I never seemed to need in previous years it immediately struck me how my most successful years in...
When you're trading lower TF I think you're more likely to overtrade than if you were trading higher TFs. We're not algos we can't capture every move thats likely to come by on a daily basis. You need to have a clear daily target or goal in place and know when there's a signal and when there isn't. It's inspiring to know that someone with a chronic illness is using his weakness and turn it into a strength. Having a right state of mind is as you said crucial in trading successfully. But after losing streak I can't help but doubt myself, my system and everything else. I used to evaluate my process in a rational manner and tried to figure out what was wrong. But after a while (2years and more) you just stop doing it on a consistent basis. Maybe this is where I need to step it up. I will read the book you mentioned on discipline sometime !
...
  • #462
  • Edited 9:40pm Jan 28, 2016 8:58pm | Edited 9:40pm
Quoting cat
{quote} It will. Just identify the signal and go for it. If you're sitting there afraid that you're going to be wrong each time, you'll never put on a trade until you do out of frustration, and that will most likely be a loser. Learn to identify the opportunities, and have a strategy that gets you into the trade without thinking about whether it's going to be a winner or a loser, because you'll never know that anyway. It's not the next trade that is important, it's the next 20 trades. If you truly have an edge and you don't let your fears get in...
Thanks Cat ! you're absolutely right.
I'm writing this down on my note and will be looking at it everyday.
I'm sure many other who are struggling will find your advice helpful.
Great books !! just reading your experience gave me some courage.
...
  • #463
  • Jan 28, 2016 10:59pm Jan 28, 2016 10:59pm
To improve my handle with fear of execution, I have the entire process of setup signal in a code alert, that means I make trades only IF it comes within such pre-specified rules, for everything else that happens to the market I watch without thoughts or bias and stay distanced and disinterested. In this way I do not get drawn into taking trades outside of my pre-specified rules.

As to the execution itself, the fear of clicking the button, I have made an ea that will take care of all else about the trade, I just need to make some manual checks which is not possible to include into the code or my coding skills is just not good enough atm.

Why do I approach trading this way ? To address directly this issue of greed and fear I have literally turn myself into a trading robot with minimal discretionary content. It's either the strategy has an edge or it does not, no lying about it. The real fear I found about myself is the fear of finding out that my strategy is wrong and does not give an edge.

In the M1 tf one cannot afford to think, time is of the essence. With stop loss in the region of under 2/3pips at times and the price window to execute is in seconds one cannot hesitate but to execute. Once execution of the trade is done the ea takes over to manage the trade, I back off to watch the market reveal itself.

That's my trading realm and I don't know if that's suitable for you or not. My personal experience with it is after having done this same stuff for a pretty long time it's not fear or greed that's the main problem but boredom. If fear is still your problem it means you are still new to your current strategy, my advice is to stick to one strategy and execute it to the letter for 100 times and by then you will be familiar with it and fear will not matter anymore.

"Work ethics eliminates fear." --- Michael Jordan

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  • #464
  • Jan 29, 2016 12:37am Jan 29, 2016 12:37am
Quoting medici
{quote} Thank you for sharing. We agree in the end although coming at it from different angles. Yes, I think it's a good idea to advice young people against a career as a retail trader. I know three people who never held a "real job" but made it as a trader right after school. They all have found "trading only" hollow after a few years, and have tried to find meaning by other means. One guy in particular comes to mind, whom I once interviewed for a job. He later ended up with a hedge fund, but due to his strange start to working life, he remains...
While I do agree that most come to trading to make money (lots of it lets be honest) I don't agree that its for the wrong reasons if you say making money is a wrong reason whats it different from any other job. A guy who's stuck at a dead end job that doesn't have any meaning or purpose. What he does day in and day out is all the same. A machine could do the job just as well. And yet he keeps hanging on to his job, because at the end of the day he has to make a living.

At one point or another I think those who came here for the wrong reasons (to hit the jackpot) do realise that they've been chasing after the improbable and become more practical. I see no difference between a guy who's trying to make a living doing a job that he doesn't like and a trader with reasonable expectations wanting the same except that the trader enjoys what he/she does. Who would you rather be ? I made my choice. I wanted the freedom of not having to report from 9 to 5 and do what you're told to. Anything that's done over a period of time do become mundane although there're some exceptions of course. Someone once told me there's reason why there's a thing called a hobby.

And I think no matter how you enjoy trading there's a point at which you feel its just like any other day job that you did to make a living. Some people will get out because they found it hollow like the guy you mentioned, some will stick around because they enjoy the reward. Some will pursue other things along with trading. You wouldn't know really, there's a trader on this forum who wants to establish a fund recruit traders teach them his method, give some fund. In return he asks his traders to donate certain percentage of their return for a good cause. I don't know the legitimacy of his claim. But it's good to know traders who's become successful want to help the needy. I'm more than happy to jump on board if I'm fortunate enough to make it (OK I'll be honest I'm going to make it )

Last but not least market has a way of flushing out the ones who doesn't enjoy the process and only after the reward. Word of encouragement stick around if you enjoy the process. There'll be a light at the end of the tunnel.
...
  • #465
  • Jan 29, 2016 12:47am Jan 29, 2016 12:47am
Quoting skyway
To improve my handle with fear of execution, I have the entire process of setup signal in a code alert, that means I make trades only IF it comes within such pre-specified rules, for everything else that happens to the market I watch without thoughts or bias and stay distanced and disinterested. In this way I do not get drawn into taking trades outside of my pre-specified rules. As to the execution itself, the fear of clicking the button, I have made an ea that will take care of all else about the trade, I just need to make some manual checks which...
...
  • #466
  • Jan 29, 2016 1:42am Jan 29, 2016 1:42am
Quoting Piquant
{quote} When you're trading lower TF I think you're more likely to overtrade than if you were trading higher TFs. We're not algos we can't capture every move thats likely to come by on a daily basis. You need to have a clear daily target or goal in place and know when there's a signal and when there isn't. It's inspiring to know that someone with a chronic illness is using his weakness and turn it into a strength. Having a right state of mind is as you said crucial in trading successfully. But after losing streak I can't help but doubt myself, my...
Above all else you must be confident in your system. Work on it in off time to check your basic premises are correct. If you know you are right this in itself should give you the confidence to move forward to the next step which is to develop the confidence to be able to execute accurately. This second step is the most difficult (most traders systems are fine, it's the execution that lets them down). To become a disciplined trader you must examine what it is that is persuading you to break your systems rules. What belief, fear, bias or other emotion is either stopping you acting or making you act at the wrong time. Write down your state of mind at the time. Later look at it and look for the element that is causing you to make mistakes. Eliminate each one by one, substituting correct values and beliefs in their place. It is extremely difficult to change all your beliefs and value in one go. You will fail. Just take one element at a time and create a framework to change that. Once you see yourself applying that successfully you should gain in confidence to be able to make the other changes you identify. Always review your trades and look at improvements. In essence you are relearning much that you know and think is important to you. A challenge. This process never stops, it becomes part of the trading plan.
Katte, kabuto no o wo shime yo. Size doesn't matter, leverage is the killer
  • #467
  • Jan 29, 2016 1:59am Jan 29, 2016 1:59am
GM - just need to express my thanks for some truly outstanding posts and discussions over the past few days - long may such wide ranging input continue.

Kind regards

Islander
Trading Levels with WRBs
  • #468
  • Jan 29, 2016 2:32am Jan 29, 2016 2:32am
Quoting medici
{quote} Wonderful post Thank you Some new items to the reading list Too late to blabber much, and I've done enough of that lately! But, yes, the warrior spirit is at the core of it. Here's a short clip that expresses the nature of the challenges well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sb9eDBWSdUA
I'm happy it is appreciated as these books mean a great deal to me. Thanks for the link as well medici. Also like to echo Islander for all the brilliant input from everybody this week
  • #469
  • Jan 29, 2016 3:04am Jan 29, 2016 3:04am
Quoting cat
{quote} I'm happy it is appreciated as these books mean a great deal to me. Thanks for the link as well medici. Also like to echo Islander for all the brilliant input from everybody this week
Glad you appreciate it I really like that short video. And I ordered First Light for evening delivery. Thanks for recommendation.

And if you/anybody likes a slightly more psychological angle on the warrior aspect of trading, there's a good book (see pic below). The chapter on The Warrior is so good, when it comes to character traits and skills to develop.

Yes! Some very valuable stuff posted here My greatest respect and appreciation to all Will try to respond when time allows.
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  • #470
  • Jan 29, 2016 3:35am Jan 29, 2016 3:35am
As a silent reader of this thread, I too would like to acknowledge the great posts made by the contributors and Cat for starting the thread.

Very much appreciated!!

ps. and even more books to read.....
  • #471
  • Jan 29, 2016 3:48am Jan 29, 2016 3:48am
Quoting skyway
To improve my handle with fear of execution
Quoting revoli
{quote} Above all else you must be confident in your system.
There's been some interesting comments appearing on this thread recently but skyway's and revoli's both
nail it for me. I've said this many times - until a trader sorts his trading method then forget about
all of the psychology and fear etc because it's a distraction. In the very early days, if someone had said
to me, "go and study price, learn how it moves, understand how, where and why you could enter the
market to benefit from those moves, and forget about trying to make money from if for between 3-5
years", I'd have said it was good advice.

In the opening pages of Trading in the Zone, even Mark Douglas says, "I assume that you already have your
own system, your own edge." My debt of gratitude to Mark Douglas lies in this very simple line because
it was this that shook me out of the miasma I was in at the time believing I had some kind of emotional
block to trading the market. I understood right there and then that I didn't actually even need to read
his book; what I needed to do was forget about equity curves and trading psychology etc, and go back to
the drawing board and focus on building a trading method. If someone were to ask me to identify a
key turning point in my own journey I would identify this one.

I'd also quickly comment on the idea that trading M1 would mean or encourage a person to over-trade.
I'd disagree with this. M1 charts may mean that we take more trades. But this is different from
over-trading.
  • #472
  • Jan 29, 2016 4:00am Jan 29, 2016 4:00am
Quoting cat
A post I read on..}
Excellent stuff. I am always looking out for good reading material.

You are right about fear being more apparent when you are trying something new. Fear uncertainty and doubt (FUD). Our greatest enemy, or is it? Fear must be mastered but I would be wary of trading without fear. A lot of traders reach a point of confidence at some point where they become fearless and believe in their own abilities to such an extent they become over confident. They then of course get burned. At that point they are ready to understand fear and how to master it. To have no fear is a cause for concern. I traded without fear for many years. Had it too good. Learnt the hard way. Master fear but retain it.

A couple of books you might like (or already have read) are Fighter Boys and a second one about the women who used to deliver spitfires to squadrons in WW2. Cannot remember its name at mo. Fear is what kept many of these guys (and girls) alive. Fear is what has kept humans alive for 2 million years ish. It has evolved with us as a key sense for a reason.
Katte, kabuto no o wo shime yo. Size doesn't matter, leverage is the killer
  • #473
  • Jan 29, 2016 4:25am Jan 29, 2016 4:25am
[quote=simond2002;8719615]{quote} {quote} There's been some interesting comments appearing on this thread recently but skyway's and revoli's both nail it for me. I've said this many times - until a trader sorts his trading method then forget about all of the psychology and fear etc because it's a distraction. ....

Thanks simon, this is so correct, and I think I've written the same thing more than once either on this thread or others. The psychological component comes last. First we have to learn about price movement, and when we've figured that out, which as you say usually takes several years, only then do we have to worry about the demons in our heads. Trading in the Zone is a great book, but it's of absolutely no value whatsoever unless you have developed an edge.
  • #474
  • Jan 29, 2016 4:46am Jan 29, 2016 4:46am
Quoting revoli
{quote} Excellent stuff. I am always looking out for good reading material. You are right about fear being more apparent when you are trying something new. Fear uncertainty and doubt (FUD). Our greatest enemy, or is it? Fear must be mastered but I would be wary of trading without fear. A lot of traders reach a point of confidence at some point where they become fearless and believe in their own abilities to such an extent they become over confident. They then of course get burned. At that point they are ready to understand fear and how to...
Thanks revoli, I agree with you here 100%. I think I wrote in that post above that we have to overcome fear. Well actually, as you say, we are hard wired with fear in our genes and it can never be overcome, neither should it because it keeps us keen and on our toes, after all, it wasn't so long ago that we were all hunter-gatherers risking our necks trying to get our next meal. Whilst things aren't quite that dangerous for us traders thankfully, it still requires quite a strong mental approach to put on the fourth trade when the last three have been losers, and this is not something that just happens, we have to work on it just as we do with everything in trading. The word I should have used above instead of overcome was ' control ' or 'manage', something that trading hours and experience teach us as long as we continue to focus on the bigger picture rather than the next trade or two, which actually is the main focus of Mark Douglas's book.

And thanks for the further book recommendations, ' Fighter boys ' I have, and is also one I would recommend people dip into, but I haven't read the one about the woman who used to deliver Spitfires, although I know of it. I think my wife though will kill me if I add yet another WW2 RAF book to the lounge bookshelf!! Just before I go, there is another book some of you may like to check out which I've attached below. This one is written by one of the few American Spitfire pilots during the Battle of Britain who was shot down over occupied France and captured by the Germans. He went on to become a serial escape artist, and his bravery, audacity and courage have to be read to be believed. He died only a few years ago. For those of you who have seen the film ' The Great Escape ', he was played by Steve McQueen.
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  • #475
  • Jan 29, 2016 4:58am Jan 29, 2016 4:58am
As mentioned above, here's my Christmas card from the great man, Geoffrey Wellum, author of' First Light', and still alive and kicking today. They made a film about the book - here's the trailer -
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  • #476
  • Jan 29, 2016 6:07am Jan 29, 2016 6:07am
Quoting Piquant
{quote} While I do agree that most come to trading to make money (lots of it lets be honest) I don't agree that its for the wrong reasons if you say making money is a wrong reason whats it different from any other job. A guy who's stuck at a dead end job that doesn't have any meaning or purpose. What he does day in and day out is all the same. A machine could do the job just as well. And yet he keeps hanging on to his job, because at the end of the day he has to make a living. At one point or another I think those who came here for the wrong reasons...
Thank you for comments I don't disagree with anything you are saying. I think I described what I meant by "wrong reasons" as well as the category of people I was primarily addressing - which doesn't include people like you and me, who have already taken the step.
  • #477
  • Jan 29, 2016 7:03am Jan 29, 2016 7:03am
Quoting Sakk
As a silent reader of this thread, I too would like to acknowledge the great posts made by the contributors and Cat for starting the thread. Very much appreciated!! ps. and even more books to read.....
Thanks Sakk
  • #478
  • Edited 7:18am Jan 29, 2016 7:07am | Edited 7:18am
Quoting cat
A post I read on this thread yesterday has prompted me to make this quick entry this evening, and it is on the subject of fear. Fear of pulling the trigger is something every trader who has ever existed has had to confront. Some manage to overcome it, others never do. The best way to overcome fear of course is to confront it head on, and in trading terms this means doing what you fear - taking trades when your strategy gives you the green light to go. It sounds straightforward, but it isn't, and most people will choke at one time or another, either...
Slightly off the main subject......both Johnnie Johnson and Paul Richey were based at RAF Tangmere in West Sussex and whilst the actual airfield is now full of crops and flowers, some of the old buildings house the excellent Military Aviation Museum which has many period exhibits - well worth a visit.

On my UK visits I stay with friends who live on the coast close by and I frequently drive along the B2144 (Chichester to Tangmere) road which passes the old airfield and I am always reminded of what happened there in the dark days of the 1940s, sometimes imagining in the corner of my eye the shadow of a landing aircraft passing over........if its during the Goodwood Revival Week it could even be one of the Memorial Fight's Spitfire's or Hurricanes making a fly past....
Trading Levels with WRBs
  • #479
  • Jan 29, 2016 8:13am Jan 29, 2016 8:13am
Quoting Sakk
As a silent reader of this thread, I too would like to acknowledge the great posts made by the contributors and Cat for starting the thread. Very much appreciated!! ps. and even more books to read.....
Hello old friend Good to see you post here. Keep it coming
  • #480
  • Jan 29, 2016 11:22am Jan 29, 2016 11:22am
Quoting Islander
{quote} Slightly off the main subject......both Johnnie Johnson and Paul Richey were based at RAF Tangmere in West Sussex and whilst the actual airfield is now full of crops and flowers, some of the old buildings house the excellent Military Aviation Museum which has many period exhibits - well worth a visit. On my UK visits I stay with friends who live on the coast close by and I frequently drive along the B2144 (Chichester to Tangmere) road which passes the old airfield and I am always reminded of what happened there in the dark days of the 1940s,...
Lovely airfield, empty but full of ghosts! Excellent museum as you say. I took my boy out of school this year for the memorial flypast at Goodwood featuring 70 Spitfires and Hurricanes all taking off and landing right in front of us, quite a spectacle!! Actually, I asked the school's permission to take him to this once in a lifetime event remembering what I consider to be the most important battle Britain has ever fought, but they refused!! I took him anyway.
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