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Prime of Prime Broker

  • #541
  • Jan 10, 2016 11:55am Jan 10, 2016 11:55am
Quoting plotinus82
Hi all Just thought it would be a good idea to make a list of prime of prime brokers out there 1. Axi Trader 2. FIXI = Axi Trader nowadays 3. Velocity trade / price markets 4. CapMar Markets 5. Gain Capital but only limited to Gain GTX no more hotspot and Currenex 6. EVFX 7. Baxter FX Am I missing anyone?
Great Idea. I shall update our Grand list.

1. ABN AMRO
2. Saxo Markets
3. ADS Securities
4. CFH Clearing
5. INTL FCstone
5. Sucden Financial
6. JFD Prime
7. AxiPrime/FIXI
8. AdvancedMarketsFX
9. Pepperstone
10 IcMarkets
11 EVFX
12 CapMarFx
13 ETX Capital Group
14 RJ O'Brien
15 Dukascopy
16 Invast
17 Baxter FX
18 Gem FX
19 FCI Markets
20 FXCM
21 Gain Capital
22 PriceMarkets
23 TopFX
24 GlobalFutures
25 IG Markets/Accendo Markets
26 EuroPacificBank
27 Oanda Institutional
28 DivisaFX
29 VarengoldBankFX
30 SFX Markets...
31 Mayzus...
32 HantecFx...
33 FxPro...
That should keep you guys busy
  • #542
  • Jan 15, 2016 12:42am Jan 15, 2016 12:42am
Quoting TraderSorrow
{quote} Great Idea. I shall update our Grand list. 1. ABN AMRO 2. Saxo Markets 3. ADS Securities 4. CFH Clearing 5. INTL FCstone 5. Sucden Financial 6. JFD Prime 7. AxiPrime/FIXI 8. AdvancedMarketsFX 9. Pepperstone 10 IcMarkets 11 EVFX 12 CapMarFx 13 ETX Capital Group 14 RJ O'Brien 15 Dukascopy 16 Invast 17 Baxter FX 18 Gem FX 19 FCI Markets 20 FXCM 21 Gain Capital 22 PriceMarkets 23 TopFX 24 GlobalFutures 25 IG Markets/Accendo Markets 26 EuroPacificBank 27 Oanda Institutional 28 DivisaFX 29 VarengoldBankFX 30 SFX Markets... 31 Mayzus... 32 HantecFx......
Very good job much props

Mind if I edit my first post so people can have a look straight away?
  • #543
  • Jan 15, 2016 4:42am Jan 15, 2016 4:42am
Quoting plotinus82
{quote} Very good job much props Mind if I edit my first post so people can have a look straight away?
Thanks!
And sure thing
  • #544
  • Jan 15, 2016 1:15pm Jan 15, 2016 1:15pm
Quoting TraderSorrow
{quote} Thanks! And sure thing
Done I've put that in the first page, I have also included a personal review of the firms I know
  • #545
  • Jan 16, 2016 12:59am Jan 16, 2016 12:59am
Quoting plotinus82
{quote} Done I've put that in the first page, I have also included a personal review of the firms I know
It would be great if you add minimum deposit and regulation
  • #546
  • Jan 16, 2016 10:51pm Jan 16, 2016 10:51pm
Quoting juisen25
{quote} It would be great if you add minimum deposit and regulation
Sorry but I have no idea what the min deposits are
  • #547
  • Jan 18, 2016 7:14am Jan 18, 2016 7:14am
Prime with counter party of flow displayed any among them? so i wish to know whom taking my flow and to what depth... any of those primes in list offers this as a feature? like pearl capital market does?

Also when i compared their true pricing vs few others (only on demo) found most others are at least 2x to 3x costly on avg spreads....
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  • #548
  • Jan 18, 2016 7:19am Jan 18, 2016 7:19am
Quoting amarfx
Prime with counter party of flow displayed any among them? so i wish to know whom taking my flow and to what depth... any of those primes in list offers this as a feature? like pearl capital market does? Also when i compared their true pricing vs few others (only on demo) found most others are at least 2x to 3x costly on avg spreads.... {image}
ABN-AMRO.
  • #549
  • Jan 18, 2016 7:20am Jan 18, 2016 7:20am
Quoting FlashCall
{quote} ABN-AMRO.
can post their avg spread and other costing details... and do they accept clients like me without any collateral deposits????? my acct size is less than 100k $ but need with good prime brokers....
  • #550
  • Jan 18, 2016 8:18am Jan 18, 2016 8:18am
Quoting amarfx
pearl capital market

Seychelles..
  • #551
  • Jan 18, 2016 8:41am Jan 18, 2016 8:41am
Quoting shrike
{quote} Seychelles..
Yes with seychelles FSA is that a problem to trade with deeper liquidity?
  • #552
  • Jan 18, 2016 9:38am Jan 18, 2016 9:38am
Depends on how much you trust this firm not to go bankrupt o/n
  • #553
  • Jan 18, 2016 9:47am Jan 18, 2016 9:47am
Quoting amarfx
{quote} can post their avg spread and other costing details... and do they accept clients like me without any collateral deposits????? my acct size is less than 100k $ but need with good prime brokers....
$1m collateral.

Maybe Stone or Baxter.
  • #554
  • Jan 18, 2016 11:42am Jan 18, 2016 11:42am
Am I right in saying that the only reason to use a PB is to latch on to the better liquidity?

For example, many people on this board use Interactive Brokers for FX and are happy with their prices/fills etc. The only problem is their crappy software but that can be solved via 3rd party order management software like Button Trader or Bracket Trader.

IB only offers fills up to $5million (can do more via the order entry software firing in multiple $5m orders though).

But if a trader wants to do some size over the month ($500m+) a PB would be a better bet, right?

Therefore to be accepted as a PB client a client's deposit would have to be large, right?

So why are people here looking for a PB when they've got less than $100k cash? On one hand that's a tidy sum but in the markets it's not so much. Surely it would be better to use a broker like IB? Am I right or wrong, if wrong where am I going wrong?

(Thanks all the posters, this thread is great, teaching me a lot)
Road To Wisdom? To err and err and err again, but less and less and less...
  • #555
  • Jan 18, 2016 2:55pm Jan 18, 2016 2:55pm
Quoting Calculus
Am I right in saying that the only reason to use a PB is to latch on to the better liquidity? For example, many people on this board use Interactive Brokers for FX and are happy with their prices/fills etc. The only problem is their crappy software but that can be solved via 3rd party order management software like Button Trader or Bracket Trader. IB only offers fills up to $5million (can do more via the order entry software firing in multiple $5m orders though). But if a trader wants to do some size over the month ($500m+) a PB would be a better...
Nah you're wrong. IB is good but it is still a software and infrastructure where they can control the price and widen spreads if needed. Although I don't think IB does that.

We are currently talking Prime of Prime setups and no one is looking for a Prime Broker here. Prime of prime give you the ability to use a broker's prime brokerage services via sub account with them. They are still your counter party, but you'll be getting a institutional set up. This will prevent any bucketing, b-booking, spread widening, stop hunting, etc. etc.

Liquidity is definitely worse than someone who B books, because B book accounts will get their stops and limits executed wherever they put it. A book conditions = to straight through processing via an aggregator to liquidity streams. But the whole idea is that you know who are you hitting your prices at, for example during General Elections exit polls in the UK, I hit sterling in the size of 250 k at 70 pips higher than market. The broker was then able to talk to the liquidity provider which filled me at that price and give me a fairer fill by market standards. That is one of the advantages of a prime of prime set up, they know who you are facing, hence in times of volatility where spreads are widened by the banks they can argue their way to a fairer fill, this is apparently not something a retail broker even IB would care about.

Using a Prime of Prime also makes sure you are getting what they are getting from the banks, in both prices and swap points. Often, brokers charge a % on swap and mark up your spreads by x amount of pips even if it is so called STP. Do remember still STP you are hitting market prices but just with a higher mark up.

Prime of prime also lets you trade forwards, Non deliverable forwards, FX Swaps and sometimes FX Options. It is what you will get from using Citi as your prime broker, however citi charges 360 k for their FXPB services per year + 5 USD per million on Currenex / Hotspot/ Integral or whatever platform. I am a client so I know.

For retail clients , or funds sub 100 million, that's impossible, 360 k might already be 1.5% of fund costs for a sub 30 million dollar fund. Hence smaller funds need a prime of prime solution, to facilitate their lack of capital. So if you are looking to trade all FX products and want an institutional set up and matches what the PoP's minimum deposit is, Prime of prime is a better set up than retail brokers because 1. you are not getting recycled flow 2. it is an unaltered system 3. true prices from LPs 4. you know whom you've taken the price off from.

It's a different level from IB or FXCM...
  • #556
  • Jan 18, 2016 3:06pm Jan 18, 2016 3:06pm
IB is pretty good. You wont get dramtically better or worse fills than on Hotspot or Currenex or something. You might get cheaper rolls and fees, depending on your volume (that retail traders typically dont do). If you trade in huge size, then there are better options. But 99% of retail traders wont get anything out of a PB that IB or lmax or the likes dont already provide.

P.S. the $5m limit on IB can be raised on request
  • #557
  • Jan 18, 2016 9:29pm Jan 18, 2016 9:29pm
Quoting shrike
IB is pretty good. You wont get dramtically better or worse fills than on Hotspot or Currenex or something. You might get cheaper rolls and fees, depending on your volume (that retail traders typically dont do). If you trade in huge size, then there are better options. But 99% of retail traders wont get anything out of a PB that IB or lmax or the likes dont already provide. P.S. the $5m limit on IB can be raised on request
LMAX isnt very good tbh
  • #558
  • Jan 18, 2016 9:58pm Jan 18, 2016 9:58pm
Not good compared to what. Compared to what a retail trader has access its doing fine.
  • #559
  • Jan 19, 2016 1:38am Jan 19, 2016 1:38am
Plotinus, thanks a lot now I understand fully.

Prime of Prime was where I was getting confused. I thought it was a 'higher' account than a prime one. But in reality, and as you explain, it's a sort of umbrella account.
Road To Wisdom? To err and err and err again, but less and less and less...
  • #560
  • Jan 19, 2016 4:28am Jan 19, 2016 4:28am
Quoting plotinus82
{quote} Nah you're wrong. IB is good but it is still a software and infrastructure where they can control the price and widen spreads if needed. Although I don't think IB does that. We are currently talking Prime of Prime setups and no one is looking for a Prime Broker here. Prime of prime give you the ability to use a broker's prime brokerage services via sub account with them. They are still your counter party, but you'll be gettingsterling in the size of 250 k at 70 pips higher than market. The broker was then able to talk to the liquidity provider...
Hey Plotinus.. Thanks for sharing ..... If you had a starting point of $250,00-300,00 AUM and you wanted to trade a basket of instruments I.e. fixed income- FX - indices, but not equities, what POP's would you look at ?

Cheers ..Ja
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