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What does a forex trader contribute to society? 7 replies

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  • #41
  • Jan 12, 2016 3:07am Jan 12, 2016 3:07am
​Great thread Winston. Just want to add some comments from my side:
Quoting Winston Reed
NO JAMES 16 MEMBER OR ANY MEMBER OF ANY OTHER COMMERCIAL MEMBERS' WEBSITE OR PURCHASER OF ANY COMMERCIAL MEMBER'S PRODUCT CAN SHOW A SUSTAINABLE RECORD OF PROFIT BASED ON THE PRODUCT/S THEY PURCHASED
​I can't talk about ALL the commercial websites, but I think majority would agree with 60minuteman that such commercial websites GIVE value, knowledge and understanding of the market, provide some strategy for beginners. They provide initial education. They are educational websites. Of course, that's not enough to be a successful trader. But we all know that even with best strategy one can be a loser, while other would generate hundreds of %. Same applies with most simple strategy. So I think you would also agree that your above statement is not correct. It's all about human. As normal, majority fails, but we shouldn't question that there are those who start to be successful traders.

We all should more concentrate on your second statement:
Quoting Winston Reed
FURTHERMORE IT IS HIGHLY UNLIKELY THAT EVEN THE COMMERCIAL MEMBERS THEMSELVES CAN SHOW A RECORD OF SUSTAINABLE PROFIT BASED ON THE PRODUCTS THEY SELL
I would also agree with this. It is really highly unlikely. IF some are successful, probably that success is very small or not so consistent, compared to fees received from members. There is NO REASON to hide verified proof of profit.

P.S. Don't know if there are any commercial websites that provide real proofs (never tried to search), but if there are any - it would be interesting to see what are the returns.
  • #42
  • Jan 12, 2016 3:16am Jan 12, 2016 3:16am
A very successful 30 yr veteran trader gives the best institutional education available to retail traders, trades live daily alongside his commercial duties, outlining trading scenarios/opportunities, as well as 1000's hours of webinars on various subjects. He has no interest in showing his PL and neither does he have to. The member's success and quality of information speaks for itself.

I think you are missing the point with this Winston. You are chasing your tail which is a typical newbie trap.
  • #43
  • Jan 12, 2016 3:30am Jan 12, 2016 3:30am
Hey Winston, commendable initiative you have here. One piece of advice though: stop posting those photos with winning trades - they really lower the level of this thread and put you in a bad light. As you're not a commercial member you don't have anything to prove, and if you did have, a Myfxbook account would be the proper way.

There's a thread going back 5 years called James 16 is not credible, where he was challenged to show some proof that he's profitable and he refused. It's as clear as daylight to any rational person that these guys are more or less scammers. They sell BS methods with no real edge, but some people are just too dumb to realize that.
The worst thing I can be is the same as everybody else. I hate that.
  • #44
  • Jan 12, 2016 4:18am Jan 12, 2016 4:18am
Quoting GubyIQ
Hey Winston, commendable initiative you have here. One piece of advice though: stop posting those photos with winning trades - they really lower the level of this thread and put you in a bad light. As you're not a commercial member you don't have anything to prove, and if you did have, a Myfxbook account would be the proper way. There's a thread going back 5 years called James 16 is not credible, where he was challenged to show some proof that he's profitable and he refused. It's as clear as daylight to any rational person that these guys are more...
If it is just the methods edge you were concerned with you could back test the method though? presuming they give you that prior to subscribing?
tradewith60
  • #45
  • Jan 12, 2016 4:39am Jan 12, 2016 4:39am
Quoting Pauliush
​Great thread Winston. Just want to add some comments from my side: {quote} ​I can't talk about ALL the commercial websites, but I think majority would agree with 60minuteman that such commercial websites GIVE value, knowledge and understanding of the market, provide some strategy for beginners. They provide initial education. They are educational websites. Of course, that's not enough to be a successful trader. But we all know that even with best strategy one can be a loser, while other would generate hundreds of %. Same applies with...
good comments - a much more balanced view..
tradewith60
  • #46
  • Jan 12, 2016 7:45am Jan 12, 2016 7:45am
Oh Winston I bow down to the great and mighty trader you are, any one can post a couple of images like you do saying / showing they can trade.
Why don't you share with us your myfxbook results too whilst you are at it.

You have lost the plot, and anyone who is needing to learn how to trade, 12 months with Strat's Long Term Stress Free Trading (http://www.forexfactory.com/showthread.php?t=155459) will give it to you all the tools you require.
I can vouch for that.
  • #47
  • Jan 12, 2016 9:47am Jan 12, 2016 9:47am
Quoting 60minuteman
{quote} Of course it is a no brainer for you Winston because you are to some extent completely missing the point. Trading is not as black and white as most people believe, it is a completely uncertain endeavour, it is gambling. We risk money trying to make profit on events with uncertain outcomes - that's gambling (although nobody likes to accept this). If this is not true then all we need to do is find the trader making the most money (right now! Livermore???) and copy what he has been doing. But as we know this does not always work out (Turtles...)...
hello 60,
Overrall, are you profitable ? hope you dont mind me asking.
  • #48
  • Jan 12, 2016 9:56am Jan 12, 2016 9:56am
Quoting metta87
{quote} hello 60, Overrall, are you profitable ? hope you dont mind me asking.
I joined 60's forum in November 2015. Before that I was not profitable, since then I have been profitable.
  • #49
  • Jan 12, 2016 10:03am Jan 12, 2016 10:03am
Quoting metta87
{quote} hello 60, Overrall, are you profitable ? hope you dont mind me asking.
Yes, I have good times and bad times, but I approach trading from a very different perspective to most. I do that because it suits what I want from trading. I am not in the take $10k and turn it into a million camp - I just look to trade a small account and withdraw profits each month. I use it as a small and consistent income and my trading is tailored to fit that.

I was badly burned by releasing financial information to people I dont know in the past which led to a lengthy and costly court case - So I wont do that again... the internet is a dangerous place to place too much information, something we will all have to come to terms with in the future I think...

Back to trading - what I am more than happy to do is explain completely how I trade and for traders to go away and test that for themselves and see if they feel it would work for them. My trading has a zero discretionary entry, if I see an entry, everyone will have the same signal. Then the exit is the skill that needs to be learned - and unfortunately that will involve to a certain extent an uncertain outcome - we are all at the end of the day, in terms of profit, reliant on the market giving us the outcome we desire. There is no 'best' exit, but it will ultimately decide how much we win or lose
tradewith60
  • #50
  • Jan 12, 2016 3:39pm Jan 12, 2016 3:39pm
Quoting 60minuteman
{quote} Of course it is a no brainer for you Winston because you are to some extent completely missing the point. Trading is not as black and white as most people believe, it is a completely uncertain endeavour, it is gambling. We risk money trying to make profit on events with uncertain outcomes - that's gambling (although nobody likes to accept this). If this is not true then all we need to do is find the trader making the most money (right now! Livermore???) and copy what he has been doing. But as we know this does not always work out (Turtles...)...
I suppose what Winston is trying to do is bring attention to some of the odd arguments course sellers give for not releasing a verified track record.

You cited privacy as one such reason. However, there are numerous ways to do this whilst preserving anonymity. I can let you know a few ways if you would like.

jmn5611 summed up my thoughts
Quoting jmn5611
Now if the buyer STILL wants to throw money at the vendor, I believe that is called capitalism. Personally I don't see anything wrong with that.
If an individual wants to part with their money without doing their due diligence. That is up to them.

That said, I am always in support of anything (e.g. this thread) that makes little fish aware of some of the sharks shiny teeth.
Follow me on twitter @FxLester
  • #51
  • Jan 12, 2016 4:43pm Jan 12, 2016 4:43pm
Quoting FxLester
{quote} I suppose what Winston is trying to do is bring attention to some of the odd arguments course sellers give for not releasing a verified track record. You cited privacy as one such reason. However, there are numerous ways to do this whilst preserving anonymity. I can let you know a few ways if you would like. jmn5611 summed up my thoughts {quote} If an individual wants to part with their money without doing their due diligence. That is up to them. That said, I am always in support of anything (e.g. this thread) that makes little fish aware...
Yes, can not disagree with anything you say here. But I have been, or at least tried to be transparent with anyone who wishes to subscribe. I have given the strategy away for free and if traders wish to be part of the group trading the strategy they get live calls of all my trades (before the fact) - from which they can very quickly see for themselves if it is working for me or other members. I have had 2 members that have wished to leave and they received a full refund (one decided trading was no longer for him, the other I don't recall his reasons) I probably give 6-8 hours a day to the group posting calls, answering questions and recording strategy/re-cap videos. Currently that costs my members lass than $2 a week. For me and hopefully my members I think I represent good value for their money. Now for someone to come along and slap a label of illegitimate because I don't fit into their notion of what a forex mentor show be or offer I think is just a little unfair.
tradewith60
  • #52
  • Edited 5:26pm Jan 12, 2016 4:55pm | Edited 5:26pm
I thought I was going to bed, but I've been sitting here baffled, viewing this thread full of barking at ghosts in the dark, instead of taking a look in the mirror.

Anybody who can trade has absolutely no commercial interest in teaching people about trading, nor in sharing their personal trading statistics. Any money obtained from prospective newbies would be to ensure their commitment, not my financial well-being.

My own experience of teaching people trading, both institutionally and privately, is that it's really about calling. That is, is trading your calling, your way of creating a life for yourself? Or is it just that your job or work prospects appear meaningless, or you'd like a bit more income than your current ways of making a living provides?

Many people of the latter variety seem to have a deep longing to shrink away from life, to avoid the responsibilities of life, and to avoid maturing as human beings - and instead lazily be fed by Mother Market.

So take a look at yourself. Are you cut out for this profession? If so, it's just a matter of doing the work. It's not too difficult, but a lot of work is required. And if you need mentoring and support you will know who to trust. If not, grow up and think about what to do with your life.
  • #53
  • Jan 12, 2016 5:06pm Jan 12, 2016 5:06pm
[quote=60minuteman;8686655]{quote} Yes, can not disagree with anything you say here. But I have been, or at least tried to be transparent with anyone who wishes to subscribe. I have given the strategy away for free and if traders wish to be part of the group trading the strategy they get live calls of all my trades (before the fact) - from which they can very quickly see for themselves if it is working for me or other members. I have had 2 members that have wished to leave and they received a full refund (one decided trading was no longer for him, the other I don't recall his reasons) I probably give 6-8 hours a day to the group posting calls, answering questions and recording strategy/re-cap videos. Currently that costs my members lass than $2 a week. For me and hopefully my members I think I represent good value for their money. Now for someone to come along and slap a label of illegitimate because I don't fit into their notion of what a forex mentor show be or offer I think is just a little unfair.[/quote

​Hello 60,

I appreciate your honesty and civil discourse. Most respond with vitriol and hostility. I am removing all labels for now and developing a more objective method of vetting commercial members. One that focuses on educating prospective buyers of products sold by commercial members. My purpose and those who join me is not to vilify commercial members and neither is it to seek their destruction. But I am doing what I think FF should have done a long time ago. And that is to provide some semblance of protection for naïve aspiring traders who are extremely vulnerable.

I want to work with the commercial members to verify that they are really qualified to sell education or other trading products that all have the underlying assumption that they have been profitable and have a reasonable probability of profit.

I invite you and any other commercial member to participate.
  • #54
  • Jan 12, 2016 5:10pm Jan 12, 2016 5:10pm
Quoting TheMaxx
{quote} I joined 60's forum in November 2015. Before that I was not profitable, since then I have been profitable.
​I hate to keep repeating myself. If you make a claim that you are profitable then you must back it up. Otherwise it is and unsubstantiated and really meaningless statement.
  • #55
  • Jan 12, 2016 5:13pm Jan 12, 2016 5:13pm
[quote=Money Magnet;8685468]Oh Winston I bow down to the great and mighty trader you are, any one can post a couple of images like you do saying / showing they can trade. Why don't you share with us your myfxbook results too whilst you are at it. You have lost the plot, and anyone who is needing to learn how to trade, 12 months with Strat's Long Term Stress Free Trading (http://www.forexfactory.com/showthread.php?t=155459) will give it to you all the tools you require. I can vouch for that.[/quote​

I have nothing to sell so I don't feel obligated to prove anything. I threw up a couple of live trades which is a lot more than most commercial members do. Again if you can vouch for being profitable with Strat's methods then back it up. Pretty simple thing. But I doubt you can or will.
  • #56
  • Jan 12, 2016 5:16pm Jan 12, 2016 5:16pm
Quoting GubyIQ
Hey Winston, commendable initiative you have here. One piece of advice though: stop posting those photos with winning trades - they really lower the level of this thread and put you in a bad light. As you're not a commercial member you don't have anything to prove, and if you did have, a Myfxbook account would be the proper way. There's a thread going back 5 years called James 16 is not credible, where he was challenged to show some proof that he's profitable and he refused. It's as clear as daylight to any rational person that these guys are more...
​The live trades are to highlight the fact that the commercial members don't post any live trades. There is nothing about posting live trades that is bad. It is in good faith. The thread mention is truly an attack thread and it really is not my intention. I want to educate newbie traders about what they are getting into.
  • #57
  • Jan 12, 2016 5:44pm Jan 12, 2016 5:44pm
​I appreciate the comments from everyone. My intentions are to educate newbies and perhaps not-so-newbies about what a commercial member has to offer.

There are different categories of traders:

1. Profitable traders- traders who consistently extract profits from the market or markets he/she is trading. IMHO most of these individuals exist outside of forums such as FF or others. They have no desire to sell anything to anyone because they are already making money. They have nothing to gain by participating in forums such as FF. These traders if they desire to educate others do not advertise on forums such as FF. They may have a website and are often sponsored by high quality brokers.

2. Nonprofitable newbie traders-this includes so called "breakeven" traders. These are traders learning to trade but have as of yet not been able to profit from their trading efforts. These traders probably represent the largest population of individuals prowling forums such as FF. They are the ones likely to purchase products from commercial members.

3. Nonprofitable experienced traders-Traders who have been in the game for several years but just can't seem to break into consistent profits. These individuals may be quite knowledgeable about the market. They often demonstrate "expertise" in indicator based trading. These individuals are often irresistible. These individuals are likely to have a "high-impact" designation here at FF. They are likely to have been running a very popular thread with many followers for an extended period of time. Most post after-the-fact trades, cherry picked trades and some don't post any live trades at all. I believe it is these traders that often become commercial members.
  • #58
  • Jan 12, 2016 6:04pm Jan 12, 2016 6:04pm
I believe the vast majority of commercial members here at FF cannot and will not provide any evidence of profit. I believe the vast majority of commercial members here at FF have a history of not being profitable but are likely very experienced and are able to parlay this experience into a profitable venture selling their experience. I believe the vast majority of traders who pay fees to commercial members cannot provide evidence of profit based on what they learn from the commercial members.​

So far I have had little success obtaining any kind of profit verification from any commercial member. I am happy to be proven wrong and if I am I will post this fact here.

I believe that newbie traders waste their money and time on these commercial members. They could save their money and fund and increase their accounts consistently with the fees they pay commercial members and learn either on their own or through other available avenues. For the most part they waste their time because they are spending it learning about unprofitable strategies being sold by unprofitable commercial members.

Commercial Members can be categorized as follows:
PROFIT:
1. Those who have verified profit.
2. those who have not verified profit.

CREDENTIALS:
1. Those who have credentials.
2. Those who have no credentials.

COMBINATIONS OF THE ABOVE
  • #59
  • Jan 12, 2016 6:53pm Jan 12, 2016 6:53pm
Quoting Winston Reed
I believe the vast majority of commercial members here at FF cannot and will not provide any evidence of profit. I believe the vast majority of commercial members here at FF have a history of not being profitable but are likely very experienced and are able to parlay this experience into a profitable venture selling their experience. I believe the vast majority of traders who pay fees to commercial members cannot provide evidence of profit based on what they learn from the commercial members.​ So far I have had little success obtaining any...

I think the biggest question has to be why should anyone bother to post proof to you, me, or anyone else? It's very much like those of us who have contributed to the Factory. If the reader does not like what is posted, then don't use it. If you have doubts about a vendor, don't buy the product.

A couple of posters have come by and said that the very people you attacked has done them a great good. So, like everything else, your mileage may vary.

These kinds of threads get started every year, and they fizzle, normally because the OP comes to understand that people are always going to make their own decisions.

Every newbie is going to spend some money. Some on books, some on chatrooms, almost all on learning market lessons that can only be taught with experience. Almost every newbie is going to pay something. If they do not pay with money, they will certainly pay with time.

Also, there are a lot of traders who come here just for the company. Most people have no idea what trading is. FF is a virtual "break room". People come in and talk. As long as there are no stealth vendors running around, then let the sellers sell their stuff, and let the buyers be aware!
If you are good at something, never do it for free--Joker
  • #60
  • Jan 12, 2016 7:23pm Jan 12, 2016 7:23pm
Quoting jmn5611
{quote} I think the biggest question has to be why should anyone bother to post proof to you, me, or anyone else? It's very much like those of us who have contributed to the Factory. If the reader does not like what is posted, then don't use it. If you have doubts about a vendor, don't buy the product. A couple of posters have come by and said that the very people you attacked has done them a great good. So, like everything else, your mileage may vary. These kinds of threads get started every year, and they fizzle, normally because the OP comes...
​Thanks JMN5611. I appreciate your comments. First I haven't attacked anyone. I have merely asked them for evidence. That is not an attack. FF is in danger of being a site that by really doing nothing to regulate the commercial members they are actually promoting their activities. I believe newbie traders should be prevented from access to the commercial section for a period of time and in fact FF should provide a disclaimer and warning about expectations. It could be argued that FF is just a maze but simply solved with all destinations eventually leading to the commercial section.

As with most products consumers have a right to know what they are really buying. It seems the commercial members have more protection and rights than the newbies. The attitude of "buyer beware" is sorely inadequate.
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