OrderFlowTrading.com - Become a Market Predator

Another perfect example of a trading system/methodology life cycle.

The market is a wilful entity. I wonder whether he is her latest casualty. He was not sounding too good. Anyone know whether he is ok?

After trading for 5yrs, I bought into his "life sustaining income" Ultimate trader program for 2K. I'm really good at sniffing out the BS but I felt he had something truly special to offer. I spent a month with him everyday trading futures in a group chat. Here is my opinion....since that's what we do here on the ol' inner webs.

DS has great insight and has done a lot of research on the mechanics of finance and markets, but always delivered with a bit of over complication. Trying to make something out of nothing. It was a tell-tale sign that he was trying to create informational value where there was none as far as producing profits was concerned. My take after everything is that order flow trading is the exact same thing as trading support and resistance. Your either trading into it or trading away from it depending on the instruments basic fundamentals. You can attempt to "meta-game" the market but at the end of the day the results are the same as just trading support and resistance. Market participants are so vast that it is impossible to measure how well you are 'meta-gaming" which cripples the actual idea of the exercise/skill. Which leads to false positives and also make for a perfect scapegoat when things don't go your way.
We would also trade news releases, waiting on data numbers to release and attempt to exploit binary movements via "meta-gaming". I paralleled a straddle system and usually ended up doing better with that being I was entering at market with all of the algo's and not getting slipped 100 ticks by the time I mentally digested the information...But even then, we were just performing basic news trading.
What I think happened: DS inadvertently put himself on the right side of the market for a period of time and mind f-ed' himself into thinking he was a genius....and sold it. DS was "order flow trading" US indices with his break out system(stop hunting) during QE, which made him a lot of money. But any numb-skull who vaguely understood QE and had a break out system would have done very well. It had nothing to do with "meta-gaming" there was no game....it was equities bullish all day every day, and every data release was a reason to get long again and after that just "buy the f-ing dip" and get rich. DS was doing well and order flow trading had the illusion of validity and success. Which made selling the idea of it easy. THEN Jan 2015 showed up and the party stopped. No more QE and DS started to get real results. This is when I took the class, I saw in real time his ideologies collapse, his frustration and confusion grew all the while trying to deliver something to 10 people that just gave him 2k a piece for a golden methodology. All of this is fine except he pitched it at people saying " with 10k you can earn a life sustaining income " which for the average person equates to averaging 300-400% returns annually...:/ members quit there jobs because of this verbage...which is not his fault per se' but WTF. He couldn't keep selling those real results so he converted or abandoned his followers while trying to reinvent himself into a equities value investor of sorts, but the market is at peak and value is hard to find for even the best Dalio's out there. I think the last big bear move in equity indices hurt him, but this is pure speculation. DS did teach me a few things....not 2k worth of things but he does posses some valuable market nuggets in his grey matter. I wish him the best but would never buy anything from him again. Just my 2c from my little corner of the world.

Nick,

Thanks for the insights from an "inside" perspective.

I did buy the book....felt it had some valuable insights. For example: The building an order-book perspective.

But, as you say...in the end.....it is just S/R on historical charts. I ocassionally checked in on the chat, but not much REAL meat was being dispensed. Just a lot of "traderism's" , articles, and general opinions. Nobody was "killing it".

I think your perspective of him/his journey sounds accurate. I started noticing a deviation from the "guru" status he had been attributed around here when he made a real-time call in a thread a few years back and it went immediately against him for around 50K......so he said. Some rationalization explained it away. Then the metioning in his videos of 20-30% annual returns went against the "high flying trader" persona. Lastly, the admissions of making 30k a year.......flip-flopping on his offerings and promises and guarantees.....and crappy fund performance that stopped being documented.....all bespoke of someone less than he built himself up to be. IMHO...

Thanks for that guys. Reasonably fair and does give one a reminder of the need to do our homework in this game.

I think it's safe to say the site is officially done. The chat room was a fun place to hang out during it's initial fruition stage, but I think it's a fair assessment to say that not one person in that room was making consistent returns. It's unfortunate, but I feel this is a common fallacy of the "blind leading the blind". As far as the investor relationship went...last I looked, they ended up losing around 10% of investor returns, and took results off of their page shortly after. The reasoning behind the move made no sense, as he was complaining investors were "afraid of front running". Even Berkshire has their positions open to the public...so I'm not buying it. Long story short: the order-flow mentality that was being sold as a holy grail was nothing short of snake oil.

Yes. It would seem the site is now dismantled. Links lead to a placeholder server page of some sort. Announcements changed daily, decisions made by the seat of the pants, and now gone. When the nirvana being pitched fails to materialize....close up shop and bolt. A sad way to do things....particulary when leaving paying customers behind with unfilled promises. And to all the critics......this is not sour grapes. This is not about people not learning to trade. This is about an assurance that a site would be provided with continual access to archives, articles, chat, newsfeed, and educational materials. It would seem that at a very minimum, enough funding had been provided in sales and subscriptions to simply pay for web-hosting....even if DS stopped adding content. Unless it was better just to have all comments and claims disappear? Anyway.....not sour grapes.....but a sour taste in the mouth for many, I'm sure. I never hitched my star to DS, but the resource was an ancillary one......and now it is gone, Cest la vie!

I agree with your sentiment Brunite. There is no reason why the site could not have been kept afloat as an archive. This sort of incompetent behaviour generally waters down the vibrancy of business and undermines the very structure that DS will continue to depend on.

I usually don't bother to post on forums, but am doing so because I feel that Darkstar (DS) is being harshly judged, I feel he's given quite generously, and want to thank him for sharing his time and knowledge.

I have no idea what DS's actual responses would be, but this is my take on some of the questions raised (or potentially raised):

======================

Why sell this info for so cheap if he could trade?

Who knows? I wouldn't have shared what he shared for the little bit of money that he asked for, but he did, and I'm better off for it.




Was his information worth the price?

He initially charged $99 for his book, and for 30 minutes of his time. He later turned that into a forum, then later into a realtime chat. He made that available for most (his offers may have changed over time with other programs etc).

His Orderflow model is pretty solid as far as I'm concerned. I use it both on an intraday and daily time period and have adapted it into other trading strategies. It's really as what it was always stated, a mindset.




Hasn't he changed how he's traded over time?

People change, markets change. Watching and learning why and how he's changed has been just as informative as everything else he's taught. Even his foray into a hedge fund was eye opening. That's one of the things that separated him from most, he was quite open in sharing what he was doing, and especially in realtime.




What about my lifetime membership!

Well I was in the chat almost everyday since it was built, and I know that most days there were scarcely 2-3 active participants asking questions. If anyone didn't take advantage of DS (or the staff's) knowledge when it was available, it's really nobody's fault.




But it was supposed to be lifetime!

Well maybe he meant the lifetime of the website, not the lifetime of the purchaser - lol. Who knows? But if you didn't get value from the last 4 years of membership, what good is another 40?

I know when I bought the book there wasn't even a promise of a chat. It was 30 minutes 1-on-1 which was changed to a forum, then later a chat.

Then he brought in a newsfeed, and staff, and the guy answered any and all questions whenever he was in chat.

He even got to a point where he was posting his trades in realtime.




You probably know Darkstar and are posting on his behalf. Or maybe you're Darkstar!

Unfortunately I never really knew him past the extent of asking him questions on the site. I really have nothing to gain posting this, but felt compelled to as I have received a lot of value from him.

He has shared a lot, and it's unfortunate if people are now coming out to call him a fraud and so forth.




Why are you only posting now? Why didn't you post anything before?

I used to come by and read forex factory, looking for the holy grail. After I started learning about the order flow model, I never really came back.




But why did you come back now?

I wanted to see if anyone was posting what had happened to DS's website, and that's why I came here.




Are you killing it?

I've got a solid positive expectancy on both my intraday and daily trading strategies. Both took a lot of work, first to learn to see the market, then to get myself out of the way. But it's not like it is a done deal, it's always a work in progress (at least for me).

Here's an orderflow intraday breakout trade from today.

http://imgur.com/plTcoS3



And here's 2 orderflow longer term trades.

http://imgur.com/imgur.com/9SCu6tw

http://imgur.com/M4nDmJT

That said, to those stumbling onto Darkstar's information for the first time, I just want to say that my trading was improved from everything I learned and wish I had come on to it earlier. If you read his book, it will seem like almost nothing at first, but if you keep at it, it will make more sense. It's NOT a holy grail, it's just a means to making sense of the market which isn't based on hokey theories, but on the mechanics of how the markets work.

If you go into it expecting to be able to do pull money at will you will you will be disappointed, the market is not an ATM waiting for you to get the key, it is merely a mechanism of exchange.




And if DS you ever happen to read this, I wish you all the best, and thank you for sharing.
May luck be with YOU!

Joe,

Fair enough and well said.

FWIW....I, for one, was not bashing. I have nothing against DS. Not going to judge him Likewise....not going to tell his customers that an apple is a s good as an orange (if they paid for and expected an orange!). That was really my point. Dangerous making promises to 1000's of people if you are not absolutely sure you can deliver. That said....I read the book. Thought it had some value as far as the OF mindset approach. I trade OF using various tools, but the insights were of value. Good luck with your trading. At least you and I know there is NO holy grail excepting for hard work, hours applied, and the development of experience.

Cheers.

If you can trade you trade. I f you can't you try to sell people stuff. I'm even a bit suspicious of Daryl Guppy now.

Hi,
I dont post here for a long time but I have been trading about 10 years, 9 of them unsuccessfuly.
I was one of the DS's Ultimate Trading Immersion Program graduates and I payed some 2500$ for it, with so called ''life time acces'' to all his stuff.
I also came here looking for answers as to what the hell happend to him. As i see the debate, obviously nobody knows.
Im not trying to defend him, he obviously has some problems and he let down a lot of people, but I am NOT one of them!
I believe he was the real deal in the knowledge and insights he provided BUT it depends on the individual how much he/she took of it.
His program made me profitable after 9 harsh years of failure, in the world of futures instead of forex. He opend a whole new world of trading to me.

As to his ''life time access''. Come on, whoever believed it was going to last forever is a bit naive dont you think? For sure I didnt think it will end so soon but anyway... I started to observe some inconsistencies in his behaviour and he was changing his mind about things quite often. Not about the market and the orderflow methodology, this was rock solid, but about the way he was doing things on his site and with his teachings. Because of this I copied ALL of the content from his site, the book, the articles, some very insightful real time trading room conversations AND the entire Ultimate trading immersion program. Boy am i glad I did that now!

So DS, whatever happend to you, I know it must be hard to you, I ve seen you put alot of effort into teaching us this stuff. I was lucky enough I was able to realy take maximum from you!

Best wishes and take care!

I am agreeing with you Tilt partially, DS opened up a new way of looking at the markets ofr sure. And I am grateful for that. But that doesnt mean he delivered what he promised when marketing the Ultimate trader immersion programe.
Yes, its naive to think lifetime access to the chat room ,I dont think anybody expected a 50yrs access from him....... you cannot defend him like this man....atleast a couple of months access to the site....... why he promise the things that he cannot deliver...
Further I dont want to go into details of what he promised when he marketing the ultimate trade programme. ..in case you want then I have the emails he sent...

whole point of your reply to this thread seams to defend DS.
By writing my views here will probably might stop my acess to his future materials ....but atleast some one in future will take the correct decision..

BTW: this doesnt mean i hv no compassion for DS situation ..whatever happened to you...hope you will recover soon Darkstar.

If you can't make money with the information he gave to you, you should stop trading.

That's really not true. There are lots and lots and lots of other ways to trade.

I am really sorry to hear this. Hope you will recover soon... BTW ...this is the life man...
apart from closing down the site .....I am grateful for your efforts in the ultimate trader program,and we learned a lot...Thanks alot

My dick... jokes are the best.

Well that was eye-opening, to say the least.

It sucks what happened to you, but I just wanted to drop by and say that the UTIP program was great, and it changed how I approach my trading.

Its not easy mate and I dont think anyone with a reasonable mind thinks any the worst of you. In the ideal world it would have been more professional to keep the site open, but one can understand your actions in hindsight.

Hope it all sorts itself out and good luck.

I'm confused.

The site seems to be there as expected, offering some "new" program.

Did it disappear from the net during the Summer?