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Why every US trader needs to trade offshore

  • #141
  • Sep 28, 2015 4:40pm Sep 28, 2015 4:40pm
We spoke with the CEO of ATC brokers recently and he told me their US arm can do hedging and no FIFO.

We were discussing mainly their non US arm so I do not have details, just thought some people may like to know.
  • #142
  • Sep 28, 2015 4:42pm Sep 28, 2015 4:42pm
I am not in the US however we do have a lot of US clients and I am interested in looking into any offshore brokers people are using.

We currently have one and I have reviewed many that I found to be too risky.

Let me know if you think yours is suitable for clients funds.

**Edit

Must have MAM/PAMM capabilities.
  • #143
  • Sep 28, 2015 5:40pm Sep 28, 2015 5:40pm
Quoting 5ssfx
We spoke with the CEO of ATC brokers recently and he told me their US arm can do hedging and no FIFO. We were discussing mainly their non US arm so I do not have details, just thought some people may like to know.
You do know that ATC brokers' liquidity provider is FXCM right?? given FXCM's history going bust and bailed out by some investors, I'd do my due diligence before dealing with ATC brokers.

Otherwise if anyone is okay with dealing with ATC brokers, being one of FXCM's white labels, go ahead, their spread and commission is quite good, execution is good too.
We live in a finite world with infinite possibilities.
FxTyrant M-Series (Live - Darwinex) All Time Return: 0.7%
  • #144
  • Sep 28, 2015 5:48pm Sep 28, 2015 5:48pm
Quoting cenetti
I've been trading with these restrictions for years and I don't find them to be "limiting". I personally think nobody needs more than 50:1 and if you claim you need more lev to turn a profit, then you're a gambler or under capitalized. Just like the rest of the "unregulated" parts, anyone with $10 to their name think they can make thousands with high leverage forex. Which is of course unrealistic and is called "gambling" As a matter of fact I'd be all for going down to 25:1 or even lower. Heck, get rid of retail spot all together in US. You can...
Sounds like you work for the CFTCThat is exactly what they are trying to accomplish (get rid of spot forex). You completely misunderstand the point, if two people both have let's say $20K to trade forex, the trader with the US broker needs to keep his entire $20K with the broker (unprotected funds, of course) as these great regulations do nothing to protect your deposit, while the offshore trader leaves 18K in the FDIC insured bank account and only needs 2K with the broker to execute THE EXACT SAME TRADES. 25:1?? then you need 40K to my 2K. Still risking the same % per trade, but the US broker trader is actually doing the gambling as all of their funds are with a broker who does nothing to protect the money. Why would I want to put up $2,000 in margin to execute a trade I can do with $200?
  • #145
  • Sep 28, 2015 5:50pm Sep 28, 2015 5:50pm
Quoting 5ssfx
I am not in the US however we do have a lot of US clients and I am interested in looking into any offshore brokers people are using. We currently have one and I have reviewed many that I found to be too risky. Let me know if you think yours is suitable for clients funds. **Edit Must have MAM/PAMM capabilities.

e-mail me at [email protected]. My broker offers what you are looking for.
  • #146
  • Sep 28, 2015 7:24pm Sep 28, 2015 7:24pm
Quoting Profit Daily
{quote} Sounds like you work for the CFTCThat is exactly what they are trying to accomplish (get rid of spot forex). You completely misunderstand the point, if two people both have let's say $20K to trade forex, the trader with the US broker needs to keep his entire $20K with the broker (unprotected funds, of course) as these great regulations do nothing to protect your deposit, while the offshore trader leaves 18K in the FDIC insured bank account and only needs 2K with the broker to execute THE EXACT SAME TRADES. 25:1?? then you need 40K...
You're the one missing the point. They reason; is to save you from yourself. Same reason as to why you need $25K to day trade stocks in the US. Keeping the undercapitalized highrisk guy off the game. Keeping people with little money from going bust.

Look at all the high lev accounts, they go bust sooner or later. Put $100 and make $100000, real world doesn't work that way. Trading with high lev double/triple is no different than putting all in black at roulette table.

So with all the extra requirements gov is saving the little guy from himself by keeping him off the game.
  • #147
  • Sep 28, 2015 7:30pm Sep 28, 2015 7:30pm
Quoting fxtyrant
{quote} You do know that ATC brokers' liquidity provider is FXCM right?? given FXCM's history going bust and bailed out by some investors, I'd do my due diligence before dealing with ATC brokers. Otherwise if anyone is okay with dealing with ATC brokers, being one of FXCM's white labels, go ahead, their spread and commission is quite good, execution is good too.

As I say, we were speaking about the FCA one, so no I do not know any details at all (which was me implying to your own due diligence).

Their US arm could not cater for what we needed so my discussion there was brief.
  • #148
  • Sep 28, 2015 8:10pm Sep 28, 2015 8:10pm
Quoting cenetti
{quote} You're the one missing the point. They reason; is to save you from yourself. Same reason as to why you need $25K to day trade stocks in the US. Keeping the undercapitalized highrisk guy off the game. Keeping people with little money from going bust. Look at all the high lev accounts, they go bust sooner or later. Put $100 and make $100000, real world doesn't work that way. Trading with high lev double/triple is no different than putting all in black at roulette table. So with all the extra requirements gov is saving the little guy from himself...
Really? Do you believe that?. They got you. ha...
  • #149
  • Sep 28, 2015 8:31pm Sep 28, 2015 8:31pm
Quoting bauta
{quote} Really? Do you believe that?. They got you. ha...
Nobody likes the truth. I lived and worked in Vegas for 5 long years. I know the mentality of a small time gambler very well and how most end up on the streets. So does the government. Look around you, forex attracts small time gamblers with the hopes of making bank with little bit of money. And that's the worst mindset to have when you start your career in forex.
  • #150
  • Sep 28, 2015 8:57pm Sep 28, 2015 8:57pm
The problem here is that we do not play with the same rules, example, as an individual I cannot hedge, the institution and the pro can. That is inequality of rules. I see the regulation protecting the pro, not the individual. They should not protect our money, it is not insured anyway. If we deposit small money and lose it, we learn from it. We do not claim to the government, we cannot.
Now, if I deposit $100,000.00, why I cannot hedge? Why FIFO? What is that? Why we cannot close the last trade first? Who benefits from it? What about average down or average up? I cannot do anything to protect/manage my trade, just the obsoleted stop loss rule, the stop the pro is chasing.
Peoples still believe in income/risk ratio. Well, if the pro know you following a rule of 1 to 2 or 1 to 3, and they see our orders there, they then set they target at 1 and the stop at 3. Who do you think is going to win? That is one more inequality, the orders they see are not public to the individuals.
Now I am in the process of opening an offshore company on Belize and open a brokerage account there, using the offshore company. Why?. Because the rules of the person on the other side of the trade are the same as mine, we fight on the same battle with the same weapons.
What Dodd-Frank did was wrong. US traders are moving offshore and the money is going outside US, they will end up fighting between them, between the institutions and the pro. Read this: https://www.andrewskurth.com/pressro...ions-1190.html
bauta
  • #151
  • Sep 28, 2015 9:04pm Sep 28, 2015 9:04pm
Quoting bauta
That is inequality of rules.
Doesn't matter. If you couldn't make it with 50:1 FIFO, you won't make it in Belize without it. None of these rules are "deal breakers". Except hedging (depending on the strategy) and that's easily solved by opening a second account.

Good luck though, let us know how you make it...
  • #152
  • Sep 29, 2015 2:40am Sep 29, 2015 2:40am
Quoting cenetti
{quote} Nobody likes the truth. I lived and worked in Vegas for 5 long years. I know the mentality of a small time gambler very well and how most end up on the streets. So does the government. Look around you, forex attracts small time gamblers with the hopes of making bank with little bit of money. And that's the worst mindset to have when you start your career in forex.
In Vegas, house has the edge built in already. In forex, if you have a winning strategy, you have the edge. but I'm glad you brought the Vegas example up because there is nobody at the door of he casino telling you how much you can bring in, where did the money come from, etc. If the government really wanted to protect the people, don,t you think they should regulate somewhere that everyone loses. They don't. why?they are paid not to.
  • #153
  • Sep 29, 2015 9:54am Sep 29, 2015 9:54am
Quoting Profit Daily
{quote} In Vegas, house has the edge built in already. In forex, if you have a winning strategy, you have the edge. but I'm glad you brought the Vegas example up because there is nobody at the door of he casino telling you how much you can bring in, where did the money come from, etc. If the government really wanted to protect the people, don,t you think they should regulate somewhere that everyone loses. They don't. why?they are paid not to.
As you said it, Vegas is gambling. Trading is NOT. The whole idea of Vegas is that you will LOSE your money, you have no edge. People going in know that fact, or at least should know that fact. So they accept anyone, little money, no money doesn't matter. It' entertainment. And it's regulated btw, that's why you don't see a casino in every corner.

Trading on the other hand is NOT gambling, thats if you know what you're doing. And little guys often don't know what they're doing and lose every cent of that little bit of money they have.

I always say it to people, if you don't have 5-10 years of experience, a strategy that's been making money last 3 years, or can't afford to lose any money next year or two. You're better off going to Vegas. At least you get free drinks and usually have more fun than losing your money sitting in front of a screen.
  • #154
  • Sep 29, 2015 11:01am Sep 29, 2015 11:01am
The Little Guys should be allowed to take small risk and have an increased chance of making some kind of profit while Learning. Its called learning on the Job. Trading is not the beast most people think it is. There are a lot of Miseducation formally and informally when it comes to trading in a bonafide way. Frankly a loss is not made it is taken, through panic and ignorance or just plain lack of patience.

Everything in this world is a learning experience trading is no different.

What the guys are fighting for is for small people to be allowed the opportunity to Learn to trade without the significant barriers being put in place by the so called authorities supposedly acting in the traders or small man's interest.

Clearly The big Financial Institutions are not interested in small guys taking a very small cut of their $5Trillion stake. (Acting as if its not taken from the inhabitants of the planet anyway by various means).

I say live and let live!

Don (ACCA CPA MBA)
  • #155
  • Edited 1:33pm Sep 29, 2015 1:01pm | Edited 1:33pm
Quoting DonFF
Clearly The big Financial Institutions are not interested in small guys taking a very small cut of their $5Trillion stake.
I am sorry I just have to laugh at this...

How many small guys do you know turned $100 account to millions/billions/trillions ? Chances are they'll keep feeding that account until they have nothing left to lose.
FIFO rule or 50:1 is not the reason small guys can't get their "billions" as you claim. Big banks/institutions don't even lose a night's sleep over retail traders as a whole, let alone a few successful ones here and there .. hah!

Where are all the ultra successful traders out side of US ? No FIFO, very high leverages, hedging. I see more losers than winners. As a matter of fact, I know more US based successful traders than anywhere else.

I run a signal service, I get people thinking they'll pay 100 bucks and triple their accounts in a month. This is what the majority of "small" timers are after. They don't want to wait for a year or two. And that's gambling and governments know it. You go to an investment bank with that target, they'd laugh at you and show you the way to Vegas.

Only a very small percentage of high leverage accounts make it mover 3 months. Look around, you'll see it's a high leverage accounts graveyard out there. Running 500-800% before going bust.
  • #156
  • Sep 29, 2015 2:02pm Sep 29, 2015 2:02pm
Keep Laughing

I guarantee I could take you to school on FX Trading.

Also try acquire even one of the above credential before you justify your silly laughter!
  • #157
  • Sep 29, 2015 2:34pm Sep 29, 2015 2:34pm
Quoting cenetti
{quote} I am sorry I just have to laugh at this... How many small guys do you know turned $100 account to millions/billions/trillions ? Chances are they'll keep feeding that account until they have nothing left to lose. FIFO rule or 50:1 is not the reason small guys can't get their "billions" as you claim. Big banks/institutions don't even lose a night's sleep over retail traders as a whole, let alone a few successful ones here and there .. hah! Where are all the ultra successful traders out side of US ? No FIFO, very high leverages, hedging....
I am finding it amazing why such a simple concept is so difficult to grasp. This thread is not about turning $100 into $1 million through high leverage trading. The sole purpose of this thread is to show people that they are risking 900% more money than they need to by trading with a US regulated broker. Here it is again......

In the US, if I want to trade a standard lot of USDJPY, EURUSD, whatever , I need approximately $2,000 for margin requirements, if I am using a 40 pip stop, I am risking approximately $400. Why on earth should I need to give a broker $2,000 to risk $400? With my broker I only need $200 for the margin, but that only allows a 20 pip stop, so I transfer $400. If you are trading with a US broker that extra $1600 is UNNECESSARILY AT RISK, YOUR FUNDS ARE NOT PROTECTED.

Perhaps if the government were really looking out for our best interest, they would allow for protection of the funds on deposit with the broker, but thy don't. Once again, these regulation are not to protect the trader.

By the way, which of the thieving, stealing, cheating US brokers would you recommend I deposit 10 times more than I need to with?
  • #158
  • Sep 29, 2015 3:43pm Sep 29, 2015 3:43pm
Quoting DonFF
Keep Laughing I guarantee I could take you to school on FX Trading. Also try acquire even one of the above credential before you justify your silly laughter!
No you couldn't. Put up your long term account for all to see. If you're as good as you say you're, I'd be the first to shake your hand. I am always out to learn from traders better than myself.

Quoting Profit Daily
{quote} I am finding it amazing why such a simple concept is so difficult to grasp. If you are trading with a US broker that extra $1600 is UNNECESSARILY AT RISK, YOUR FUNDS ARE NOT PROTECTED.
Exactly my thinking. Why is it so hard to understand ?

If you don't have that extra $1600 to risk, chances are you don't have money to risk AT ALL! Leverage means you're BORROWING from your broker. Things go south like it happened during CHF situation, I rather have 25:1 or even lower leverage than say, 200:1. Because even though you don't deposit it (thus very attractive to little guy) you're REQUIRED to pay that back to the broker in an event of vacuum trading, especially after the last craziness. Higher leverage means you're BORROWING MORE, and that's never a good thing, especially if you don't have money to lose in the first place.

This whole talk tells me that none of you guys should be trading at all.
  • #159
  • Sep 29, 2015 3:48pm Sep 29, 2015 3:48pm
Quoting cenetti
{quote} No you couldn't. Put up your long term account for all to see. If you're as good as you say you're, I'd be the first to shake your hand. I am always out to learn from traders better than myself. {quote} Exactly my thinking. Why is it so hard to understand ? If you don't have that extra $1600 to risk, chances are you don't have money to risk AT ALL! Leverage means you're BORROWING from your broker. Things go south like it happened during CHF situation, I rather have 25:1 or even lower leverage than 200:1. Because even though you don't deposit...
I am comparing two equally funded traders, one just keeps 80% of his money safely in his bank account, the other has it at risk with the broker. The % of risk has nothing to do with the leverage offered by the broker. Both are risking the same on the trade, the US trader simply has way more at risk as that extra margin is not protected. Not to mention, the US brokers are the biggest crooks in the industry.
  • #160
  • Sep 29, 2015 3:56pm Sep 29, 2015 3:56pm
Quoting Profit Daily
, the US brokers are the biggest crooks in the industry.
.....hmm ok.

Nothing but emotions talking here.

In forex, if you're losing money it's always the broker's, government's, market makers' your grandma's, hell! my grandma's and everybody else's fault. But never the traders. EVER!
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