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  • #101
  • Sep 13, 2015 9:16am Sep 13, 2015 9:16am
Quoting merquise
@Xela You are also forgetting that IB and similar brokers offer more than one financial instrument.

I tend to overlook that because it's actually true of everywhere I trade, myself (though I trade only forex). Perfectly good point, though, of course.
  • #102
  • Sep 13, 2015 9:17am Sep 13, 2015 9:17am
Quoting Forexia
{quote} yeah but with $10K, even with the capped leverage by CFTC, you can control more than just 1 standard lot in spot forex and yet in futures, you can only control 1 contract which is equivalent of 1 lot.
Yes off course...you have more options in that department in forex, but lot for contract you should be earning nearly the same amounts of $ (+ - couple of $)
  • #103
  • Sep 13, 2015 9:18am Sep 13, 2015 9:18am
Quoting Atokys
{quote} The game may actually be a positive sum game from a utility standpoint. - Hedgers protect their business interests. - Gamblers get their thrill. - Speculators make their money.
As Seykota said: Everybody gets what they want from the market.
k
  • #104
  • Sep 13, 2015 9:19am Sep 13, 2015 9:19am
Quoting merquise
@Xela You are also forgetting that IB and similar brokers offer more than one financial instrument. They offer Forex, Futures, Equities, Options, Bonds, Indexes. You can trade what ever you have on your mind with those kind of brokers. Forex brokers are only oriented to, well Forex
Yeah but that trader profitability specifically focused on profitability of forex accounts excluding all the other accounts.
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #105
  • Sep 13, 2015 9:24am Sep 13, 2015 9:24am
Quoting kprsa
{quote} As Seykota said: Everybody gets what they want from the market. k
Hes right in so many ways.
  • #106
  • Sep 13, 2015 9:25am Sep 13, 2015 9:25am
Quoting merquise
{quote} Yes off course...you have more options in that department in forex, but lot for contract you should be earning nearly the same amounts of $ (+ - couple of $)
Yes for forex maybe but still I have obtained different result when I backtest my same strategy on the spot forex charts and on futures forex chart even though the price curve and the indicator curves are identical. It's really strange.

But for other futures instrument like Gold and oil which are the more active ones in futures market, there is definitely an issue with funds efficiency. Larger amount of capital is required for risk management and yet the return on those capital is far less comparing to spot forex IF the forex broker has acted fairly.
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #107
  • Sep 13, 2015 9:27am Sep 13, 2015 9:27am
Quoting Atokys
{quote} Hes right in so many ways.
I agree and I can see you're a big fan.
atokys <-> s(e)ykota

k
  • #108
  • Sep 13, 2015 9:29am Sep 13, 2015 9:29am
Quoting kprsa
{quote} I agree and I can see you're a big fan. atokys <-> s(e)ykota k
It was a tough choice between this name and "PipsGaloreFX".
  • #109
  • Sep 13, 2015 9:33am Sep 13, 2015 9:33am
Quoting Forexia
{quote} Yes for forex maybe but still I have obtained different result when I backtest my same strategy on the spot forex charts and on futures forex chart even though the price curve and the indicator curves are identical. It's really strange. But for other futures instrument like Gold and oil which are the more active ones in futures market, there is definitely an issue with funds efficiency. Larger amount of capital is required for risk management and yet the return on those capital is far less comparing to spot forex IF the forex broker has...
Don't know why. This Friday I have earned the same amount of money on Gold on futures and on spot. Risk was the same also.
  • #110
  • Sep 13, 2015 9:37am Sep 13, 2015 9:37am
Quoting Inceptionist
{quote} Great question...The answer is: Forex futures offer lower leverage ( typical leverage is around 1:14 or 1:15 max.), it requires higher margins and maintaining futures margins is like a pain in the ass ( read about maintenance margin in Futures market.) And also futures requires a lot of money to start with...Futures is the big players playground, don't even bother thinking about futures if you have anything less than a 100K, Yes you can still trade with like 20-30k in FX Futures, but you'll be extremely under capitalized and your risk of...
There's also futures options and currency etf options with lower margin requirements. I don't really know much about options but I know that some of them work very much like plain futures or spot - for short to medium term trades but with the advantage that the worst case risk is what you paid instead of unlimited. Not so good for buy and hold but what kind of trader is doing a buy and hold anyway...
  • #111
  • Sep 13, 2015 9:41am Sep 13, 2015 9:41am
Quoting fxjesus
{quote} There's also futures options and currency etf options with lower margin requirements. I don't really know much about options but I know that some of them work very much like plain futures or spot - for short to medium term trades but with the advantage that the worst case risk is what you paid instead of unlimited. Not so good for buy and hold but what kind of trader is doing a buy and hold anyway...
Options are good, but to daytrade you need 25k account or you are stuck at 3 trades per week as I understood.
  • #112
  • Sep 13, 2015 10:14am Sep 13, 2015 10:14am
The discussion here is getting ridiculous. If you enter at A and exit at B you either make a profit or loss. Market is going up or down. When you make more profit than loss, your account grows at a certain rate. When you want to withdraw your profits, you withrdraw them. Majority of popular brokers that appear to have a trustworthy name on forums like this one, they do not manipulate the feed very much. The may missquote some decimals, give some ms latency, which is normal for this market, as it is decentralized and it cannot be exactly the same everywhere and every second (also a profit opportunity for some) but if your edge is serious, you will be making your money. The only potential problem I see is withdrawals, if there is no problem with getting your money off the broker, than its just a matter of profitable strategy and execution of that strategy. It is hard but the broker is not that much of an obstacle. Every broker above average is allright if the trader is good. But most traders just cant make any money and that is because the market is very efficient. Blaming the retail brokers is an old song that has been played many times. They make their tricks, however they cannot move the market and they dont have too, price is flowing regardless their actions, so it is up to you to trade it and if the broker is not on some yacht on the cayman islands and is willing to pay back money, i dont see how it is a problem. There may be some conflict with traders that trade ultra high-frequency and go for really small fluctiations. Majority of strategies are not affected seriously. The broker has his ways of making money but if we cannot find our way, it is not for the broker to blame! And no one is pointing agun at our face to use a particular broker or to trade at all. And all of the traders on FF that re consistently losing will be losing just as much with any other market access, probably even more! Because retail brokers are the cheapest way to access the market for us, and many people disregard that fact. If that retail segment had not developed, most of us would never even have the chance to learn anything in this business...
There are definately some catastrophic scams going around , but it is part of every traders experience to learn to recognize those and protect his/her money from the risk of the environment. So A-booking, B-booking, the reality is that we are F*-bookin ourself really hard and want to blame someone else for making it hard or impossible. Trading involves capital at risk, you can lose more than you deposit, you can lose all your account, its a high risk business. It is written everywhere and no one is lying more than necessary, but we are lying to ourselves. Its like everything else in life - a competition.
  • #113
  • Sep 13, 2015 11:03am Sep 13, 2015 11:03am
Quoting Forexia
{quote} WHY should us traders be limited to only making only few K's a year? Trading is a business for us. I don't know any businessmen who will be satisfied with just making few K's a year. Do you? And besides, HOW are we going to live on just few K's of income a year? For many of us, trading is our business, our ONLY income-earning venture. Would you be able to survive on income of just few K's a year? So what are we supposed to do? Take on 2 or 3 more other jobs just to be able to trade? We are supposed to trade to make money NOT make money to...
Of course i want to make millions, but it is not possible with retail dealers. I am only playing with a few thousands so making a few thousands is good amount of profit. I plan to make regular withdraw to cover the cost of living. Retail dealer/broker are very very money thirsty so they are going to kick u out before u make a lot. prime brokers might be the same but i have no experience. The guy who lost 20k from gain capital was trading with Gtx, the Prime
  • #114
  • Sep 13, 2015 11:21am Sep 13, 2015 11:21am
[quote=feline207;8485967. Its like everything else in life - a competition.[/quote]
Well said, you hit the nail on the head here, about time this discussion fades off into the junk bin like the rest of em. Just goes in circles everytime
All posts are my personal opinion
  • #115
  • Sep 13, 2015 11:29am Sep 13, 2015 11:29am
Quoting feline207
The discussion here is getting ridiculous. If you enter at A and exit at B you either make a profit or loss. Market is going up or down. When you make more profit than loss, your account grows at a certain rate. When you want to withdraw your profits, you withrdraw them. Majority of popular brokers that appear to have a trustworthy name on forums like this one, they do not manipulate the feed very much. The may missquote some decimals, give some ms latency, which is normal for this market, as it is decentralized and it cannot be exactly the same...
Exactly. forexfactory is a ridiculous place. Lol
  • #116
  • Sep 13, 2015 5:08pm Sep 13, 2015 5:08pm
well, since this thread hes drifted to broker talk, i'll add my grain of salt.


when i was looking for a broker few years ago (Hotspot was still accepting retail clients and Marex Spectron was still offering forex, i know its been a while).
there is one very important thing that i noticed about institutional brokers (beside the high minimum account balance), is that they have a minimum monthly volume of XXX lot and if you don't trade that much, you're out.

which does make sens , since they get their profits from commissions, if you trade 10 lot monthly and their com is $6 for example, they'll get $60.
thats just not worth it for them.

i hope someday i'll have enough bucks get into Baxter-fx or Hotspot ......and maybe EBS ....eh a man can dream ...
i lose money for a living
  • #117
  • Sep 14, 2015 1:53am Sep 14, 2015 1:53am
Quoting tylerbose
well, since this thread hes drifted to broker talk, i'll add my grain of salt. when i was looking for a broker few years ago (Hotspot was still accepting retail clients and Marex Spectron was still offering forex, i know its been a while). there is one very important thing that i noticed about institutional brokers (beside the high minimum account balance), is that they have a minimum monthly volume of XXX lot and if you don't trade that much, you're out. which does make sens , since they get their profits from commissions, if you trade 10 lot monthly...
I wonder how do you trade directly on EBS Reuters? Would you still need a broker? I would guess you still do since EBS Reuters is just a platform. What's their min. trading volume, anybody know?

The crux of the problem with forex trading in essence, not just with retail brokers is the lack of price & trade transparency: You are NOT getting what you are seeing. I dunno how the prime brokers are set up with regards to those institutional platforms like EBS Reuters but if they have access to the trading platform as well, do they also have the capability of manipulating the price displayed on the platform for them to earn a spread on top of the commission or is EBS Reuters is purely a price display platform and the broker is only able to execute trades and nothing else?

Otherwise unless forex trading goes onto a central exchange, even if you've paid millions to open an account with a prime broker, you still would be subject to the same issues plaguing retail brokers: what you see is NOT what you get. Just because prime brokers are bigger and require more dough from you to trade would not necessarily mean it's better.

And yes, Hotspot was a MAJOR loss to us retail traders, a TRUE ECN at retail level but with a kick-a$$ platform not like the piece of sh1t TWS from IB.
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #118
  • Sep 14, 2015 2:01am Sep 14, 2015 2:01am
in a few years savy traders will be switching to decentralized exchanges such as bitshares. The blockchain will render traditional markets obsolete which do not conform,
  • #119
  • Sep 14, 2015 2:13am Sep 14, 2015 2:13am
Quoting Forexia
{quote} I wonder how do you trade directly on EBS Reuters? Would you still need a broker? I would guess you still do since EBS Reuters is just a platform. What's their min. trading volume, anybody know? The crux of the problem with forex trading in essence, not just with retail brokers is the lack of price & trade transparency: You are NOT getting what you are seeing. I dunno how the prime brokers are set up with regards to those institutional platforms like EBS Reuters but if they have access to the trading platform as well, do they also have the...
EBS Reuters and Hotspot are "matching" engines ..
You need a prime broker to access and they charge a commission.
Some brokers can give you access to them if you do large volume.

Institutional brokers (those with prime brokers) just past through the orders and charge a commission.
  • #120
  • Sep 14, 2015 4:13am Sep 14, 2015 4:13am
Quoting lasty
{quote}Some brokers can give you access to them if you do large volume.
How large of a volume? And which broker(s)?

Quoting lasty
Institutional brokers (those with prime brokers) just past through the orders and charge a commission.
So no possibility of them manipulating the price? The price that I see on the platform is REALLY what I will get?
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
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