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  • #21
  • Sep 12, 2015 9:53am Sep 12, 2015 9:53am
Quoting Forexia
{quote} Most brokers do both, A-booking AND B-booking. They do the B-booking against the losing clients so they earn trading profit+spread. For the clients who happen to be winning traders, they do the A-booking, they pass their trades to the liquidity providers/prime brokers and earn the spread (via widening slippages) + commissions. So they make money regardless how the clients trade. So for us traders, IF we trade against a retail broker, I guess the only way to win for life is to scalp profitably so that way the broker won't dare to b-book you...
You won't be able to scalp safely knowing that your broker can widen spreads, re-quote you, arbitrage your orders or even delay it ( you know that a few seconds delay could make or break a scalper)...To be honest with you, I don't feel safe at all trading with a retail broker anymore, I was burned so bad before and I don't appreciate the conflict of interest involved between me and my retail MM or broker...Regards
Simplicity is the key to brilliance.
  • #22
  • Sep 12, 2015 9:55am Sep 12, 2015 9:55am
Quoting fx75
{quote} so is cTrader better option ?
Yes since according to Spotware, NO plug-in's are allowed BUT a MM broker can still use it to trade against you just with no requoting, delayed execution, or *covert* stop-hunting (they can still stop-hunt you on cTrader but they just won't be able to hide it to cover their tracks like with the Virtual Dealer Plug-in; the stop-hunting spike will be visible on the chart in cTrader).

And the broker can still widen the slippages a.k.a their spread on cTrader to screw you albeit with much faster execution speed.
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #23
  • Sep 12, 2015 9:56am Sep 12, 2015 9:56am
Quoting Inceptionist
{quote} The scam part is that market makers don't wanna play fair...If you're losing they're happy, If you're winning they'll give you slippage, re-quotes, delayed orders and they'll arbitrage your orders too...They don't mind everyone losing, but they don't wanna lose a dime...I don't think this is a fair play.
Hmmm.... are u sure about this? If this brokers really do this they will quickly end up with 0 clients.
I think a broker is more happy with a trader who makes consistent profit on the long term.
Everytime a trader opens a position they get the spread. When traders are happy more will come and they earn more spread.
  • #24
  • Sep 12, 2015 9:59am Sep 12, 2015 9:59am
Quoting Inceptionist
{quote} You won't be able to scalp safely knowing that your broker can widen spreads, re-quote you, arbitrage your orders or even delay it ( you know that a few seconds delay could make or break a scalper)...To be honest with you, I don't feel safe at all trading with a retail broker anymore, I was burned so bad before and I don't appreciate the conflict of interest involved between me and my retail MM or broker...Regards
Well as long as you don't trade on a platform that allows Plug-ins that can interfere with the order execution process, you do have a higher chance scalping (NOT hedging since they still can widen spread on you via slippages) profitably with a retail broker who's A-booking you because you are consistently profitable with HIGH trade size.

The keyword is trading frequently + LARGE trade size (NO micro trade) + consistently profitably. The broker won't dare to do anything besides widening spread to screw with you and they don't dare to fire you as their client because you are generating commission for them.
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #25
  • Sep 12, 2015 10:02am Sep 12, 2015 10:02am
Quoting Atokys
{quote} I can imagine one of those unregulated brokers doing this but the ones that are licensed by a country's monetary authority seem a lot safer and better.
If that's true, Where were the CySec ppl when IronFX cheated 150-160 Chinese traders out of millions and there's a legal case in one of Cyprus courts running...Even worse, I know one of the biggest IronFX IBs in the middle east and he used to trade with IronFX for a long time, he introduced many clients to IronFX worth millions of dollars of business, and yet they screwed the IB and one of his biggest clients...IronFX owned the IB about 50K, and they owed the IB's biggest client something like 200K...The funny thing is that IronFX mentions on their website that they're regulated with 7-8 regulators around the world...I don't have anything against this company, I was just giving you an example of a regulated scam broker...Regards.
Simplicity is the key to brilliance.
  • #26
  • Sep 12, 2015 10:05am Sep 12, 2015 10:05am
Quoting Atokys
{quote} I can imagine one of those unregulated brokers doing this but the ones that are licensed by a country's monetary authority seem a lot safer and better.
Regulations means nothing because trading against clients to make money is allowed by ALL regulatory bodies in the world. So for all those brokers who are regulated and licensed, when they are trading against their clients, they won't get looked by any regulatory bodies in the world.

And besides not all regulators are created equal. Some are better and some are scams or near scams themselves. LOL
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #27
  • Sep 12, 2015 10:07am Sep 12, 2015 10:07am
Quoting Inceptionist
{quote} If that's true, Where were the CySec ppl when IronFX cheated 150-160 Chinese traders out of millions and there's a legal case in one of Cyprus courts running...Even worse, I know one of the biggest IronFX IBs in the middle east and he used to trade with IronFX for a long time, he introduced many clients to IronFX worth millions of dollars of business, and yet they screwed the IB and one of his biggest clients...IronFX owned the IB about 50K, and they owed the IB's biggest client something like 200K...The funny thing is that IronFX mentions...
If thats true then thats an actual scam. But im referring to those unscrupulous tactics that you mentioned earlier. Are there any mainstream retail brokers who openly sabotage clients?

With this is mind, I can't understand why retail traders insist on intraday trading styles.
Quoting Forexia
{quote} Regulations means nothing because trading against clients to make money is allowed by ALL regulatory bodies in the world. So for all those brokers who are regulated and licensed, when they are trading against their clients, they won't get looked by any regulatory bodies in the world.
I see no problem with trading against a client. Im only talking about the sabotage tactics mentioned earlier.
  • #28
  • Sep 12, 2015 10:10am Sep 12, 2015 10:10am
Quoting Atokys
{quote}Are there any mainstream retail brokers who openly sabotage clients? With this is mind, I can't understand why retail traders insist on intraday trading styles.
Yes LOTS and they do this everyday. Go to Youtube and type in "MT4 Virtual Dealer Plug-in" and see for yourself.
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #29
  • Sep 12, 2015 10:12am Sep 12, 2015 10:12am
Quoting Forexia
{quote} Well as long as you don't trade on a platform that allows Plug-ins that can interfere with the order execution process, you do have a higher chance scalping (NOT hedging since they still can widen spread on you via slippages) profitably with a retail broker who's A-booking you because you are consistently profitable with HIGH trade size. The keyword is trading frequently + LARGE trade size (NO micro trade) + consistently profitably. The broker won't dare to do anything besides widening spread to screw with you and they don't dare to fire...
Let's say that I have a consistent scalping strategy that gives me like 8-10 pips on average, Why would I trade with a broker that could widen their spreads or delay my orders anytime? If they widen their spreads, I lose significant amount of my scalping profits, and if they delay my order I can miss the whole trade/opportunity if markets moved too fast, So yes, They didn't fire me because I am generating large volumes and commissions for them, but they screwed my whole trading plan...You can use other platforms ( I like Ninja trader myself) but it's way more difficult to run EAs on those platforms and also you'll be very limited with the choice of brokers, if you're using NinjaTrader for example...And remember that NinjaTrader or TradeStation supports a limited no. of brokers, You can't just get a Ninjatrader and get connected to a prime broker...I think we can do better using a professional platform/software like Bloomberg or Reuters or even Esginal, but you know that they cost alot of money.
Simplicity is the key to brilliance.
  • #30
  • Sep 12, 2015 10:13am Sep 12, 2015 10:13am
Quoting Forexia
{quote} Yes LOTS and they do this everyday. Go to Youtube and type in "MT4 Virtual Dealer Plug-in" and see for yourself.
Please list all of the ones you know and what is it in particular that they do.
  • #31
  • Sep 12, 2015 10:13am Sep 12, 2015 10:13am
Quoting Atokys
{quote} If thats true then thats an actual scam. But im referring to those unscrupulous tactics that you mentioned earlier. Are there any mainstream retail brokers who openly sabotage clients? With this is mind, I can't understand why retail traders insist on intraday trading styles. {quote} I see no problem with trading against a client. Im only talking about the sabotage tactics mentioned earlier.
Well how is trading against clients fair? You are obviously in a conflict of interest against your own client if you can win when your client loses. And the sabotage tactics is just part of trading against your clients; they just enhance their profits more when they trade against their clients.

If you don't mind your broker making money at your expense, then good luck and have fun!
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #32
  • Sep 12, 2015 10:16am Sep 12, 2015 10:16am
Quoting Atokys
{quote} Please list all of the ones you know and what is it in particular that they do.
Well if I do that, this FF will run out of server space. LOL So I am not going to do that. If you are interested, go to Forex Peace Army website and open an account with any of the brokers listed there with a "scam" rating and see and experience it yourself.

Once again, good luck and have fun!
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #33
  • Sep 12, 2015 10:19am Sep 12, 2015 10:19am
Quoting Forexia
{quote} Well how is trading against clients fair? You are obviously in a conflict of interest against your own client if you can win when your client loses. And the sabotage tactics is just part of trading against your clients; they just enhance their profits more when they trade against their clients. If you don't mind your broker making money at your expense, then good luck and have fun!
If a broker profits off clients without foul play, then its fair. Sabotage is not fair, thats why im asking which are the mainstream brokers who are known saboteurs?
  • #34
  • Sep 12, 2015 10:26am Sep 12, 2015 10:26am
Quoting Inceptionist
{quote} Let's say that I have a consistent scalping strategy that gives me like 8-10 pips on average, Why would I trade with a broker that could widen their spreads or delay my orders anytime? If they widen their spreads, I lose significant amount of my scalping profits, and if they delay my order I can miss the whole trade/opportunity if markets moved too fast, So yes, They didn't fire me because I am generating large volumes and commissions for them, but they screwed my whole trading plan...You can use other platforms ( I like Ninja trader myself)...
Ok platforms, as long as it doesn't allow for any order/execution manipulation plug-in's like the Virtual Dealer plug-in, really don't have much to do with execution quality; that's the pure domain of brokers. If you are still experiencing delayed execution on Ninja Trader, that's not the problem with Ninja Trader, that's the problem of the broker.

And on that note, I totally agree prime brokers is really the way to go but it unfortunately still pushes us traders all back to square one with the problem that prevented us traders from accessing the forex market in the first place: lack of trading capital. We all thought retail brokers by stepping in would solve this problem for us, allowing us to trade forex with affordable capital but obviously it's not working out; they are basically not allowing us traders to be profitable which defeated our whole purpose of forex trading. Why trade forex to lose money when I can just throw my money into the burning fireplace? It'll be lot faster and lot more fun. LOL

Bloomberg, Reuters are out of question. You need at least $5 million to open accounts with them.
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #35
  • Sep 12, 2015 10:35am Sep 12, 2015 10:35am
Is there a forum rule against discrediting brokers or something? Why not just list the untrustworthy brokers here so we all can benefit from the knowledge.
  • #36
  • Edited 10:52am Sep 12, 2015 10:41am | Edited 10:52am
Quoting Atokys
{quote} If a broker profits off clients without foul play, then its fair. Sabotage is not fair, thats why im asking which are the mainstream brokers who are known saboteurs?
No a broker who profits off clients even without foul play still should NOT be tolerated. The broker is there to provide a service to me and they shouldn't profit at my expense, sabotage or no sabotage. Because the broker has more information than you. They know ALL of your positions but you don't know theirs.

So let's say you are long $100K in E/U and since the broker is trading against you, he's short $100K in E/U. You broker sees your trade but you don't see any of your broker's trades. And the broker can do something about it to make sure you lose so he will win. What does the broker do? He will push the price artificially down and so much down that your trade gets closed out automatically via the margin-call stop-out that most of the brokers have to supposedly protect your trading capital and their risk exposure. The result: the broker has just banked $1000 profit at your expense.

Since the forex market is an OTC market that means there is NO central exchange where the bid/ask price of an forex instrument is determined and set. Any brokers are free to set whatever price they want for the forex instrument that they are "making a market in" because they ARE the dealer. So it's perfectly legal for him to push the price way down because hey he's the dealer; it's his market and he's perfectly within his rights to set a margin stop-out level to automatically close out your losing trade to protect you and him. So everything is perfect and legal to the regulators but the result, you just became an ATM machine to your broker from which he's withdrew $1000. The brokers takes $1K from you, 1K from me, $2K from her, $3K from him, before you know, he's made $1 million just by trading against us. This is WHY retail forex brokers are sprinting out of the ground faster than the speed of light cuz it's so profitable so easily and so fast!

This goes on at EVERY SINGLE MM (what I call casino) broker that trades against you. And this is their simplest trick without any "sabotage" like requoting, delayed and selective execution, stop-hunting and etc. using the Virtual dealer plug-in.
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #37
  • Sep 12, 2015 10:41am Sep 12, 2015 10:41am
Quoting Atokys
Is there a forum rule against discrediting brokers or something? Why not just list the untrustworthy brokers here so we all can benefit from the knowledge.
Forex Peace Army. http://www.forexpeacearmy.com/
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #38
  • Sep 12, 2015 10:50am Sep 12, 2015 10:50am
Quoting Forexia
{quote} No a broker who profits off clients even without foul play still should NOT be tolerated.
Well, if a broker has to take the opposite side of a client's trade and the client loses what can the broker do but make the profit? lol

Im under the assumption that brokers ideally would want client orders to offset each other.
Quote
The broker is there to provide a service to me and they shouldn't profit at my expense, sabotage or no sabotage. Because the broker has more information than you. They know ALL of your positions but you don't know theirs. So let's say you are long $100K in E/U and since the broker is trading against you, he's short $100K in E/U. You broker sees your trade but you don't see any of your broker's trades. And the broker can do something about it to make sure you lose so he will win. What does the broker do? He will push the price artificially down and...
Are you talking about spread widening or price manipulation? These seem like different things.

Im not trying to defend brokers, I just want answers about the supposed scam brokers. Don't you think that if they backrupted all their clients they would go out of business too?
  • #39
  • Sep 12, 2015 10:57am Sep 12, 2015 10:57am
Quoting Atokys
{quote} Well, if a broker has to take the opposite side of a client's trade and the client loses what can the broker do but make the profit? lol
Yeah but because the broker knows he will profit from the client's losses. He's make the client lose ON PURPOSE. That's the problem.

Quoting Atokys
{quote}Im under the assumption that brokers ideally would want client orders to offset each other. {quote}
WHY? WHY would the broker want to do that when he is the counter-party to all the client trades and can profit from all of them when the clients lose?

Quoting Atokys
{quote}Are you talking about spread widening or price manipulation? These seem like different things.
I am talking about both. Spread widening IS price manipulation. Spread IS the price. Otherwise what do you think the price is?

Quoting Atokys
{quote}Don't you think that if they backrupted all their clients they would go out of business too?
WHY would they? For each client that they bankrupted, there will be TEN other potential clients like you who think brokers trading against clients to make profit is no problem waiting by their door to open accounts with them. LOL That's why I suggest you to go ahead and open an account with a MM broker and start trading with them and you will know what I am talking about.
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #40
  • Sep 12, 2015 11:12am Sep 12, 2015 11:12am
Quoting Forexia
WHY? WHY would the broker want to do that when he is the counter-party to all the client trades and profit from them when the clients lose?
So they can make the spread?
Quote
I am talking about both. Spread widening IS price manipulation. Spread IS the price. Otherwise what do you think the price is?
Well, if a broker constantly widens their spread all the time with the intention of making clients lose money won't the broker lose out to other brokers who provide a more competitive spread?
Quote
WHY would they? For each client that they bankrupted, there will be TEN other potential clients like you who think brokers trading against clients to make profit is no problem waiting by their door to open accounts with them.
I would think that they would be out of business very soon.
Quote
LOL That's why I suggest you to go ahead and open an account with a MM broker and start trading with them and you will know what I am talking about.
O-O-OK...
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