Is anyone here an institutional trader? | Page 45 | Forex Factory

Options

Go to
Permalinks
Print Thread

Similar Threads

Anyone here profitable? Show your Live Earnings here 3 replies

Brokers and Banks as an Institutional Trader 4 replies

Anyone can provide market depth snapshot for ATC Active Trader ? 0 replies

anyone can login to vt trader? 1 reply

Attachments: Is anyone here an institutional trader?
Exit Attachments

Is anyone here an institutional trader?

  • #881
  • Sep 9, 2015 2:41am Sep 9, 2015 2:41am
Quoting Atokys
{quote} Markets are manipulated all the time. Markets are afterall just a manifestation of the collective actions of all its participants. Directed price manipulation rarely has any sustainability and is often a costly endeavour.
It is true that markets can be manipulated, but it is on a time scale of hours and not days or weeks.

When I was a floor trader, we could run stops and move markets on the scale of minutes. The large commercials could move markets on the scale of hours up to possibly a day or two. But the market will always continue to move where it is meant to go.

There is always another Large Player somewhere that will recognize the move as an opportunity to take an opposite position.

As a trader, I want to ride the waves, since that is the path of least resistance. I don't care if the waves were produced by the weather (fundamentals) or a large boat speeding by (manipulation).

GREEN pips to everyone.
  • #882
  • Sep 9, 2015 2:53am Sep 9, 2015 2:53am
Quoting SmoothTrader
. As a trader, I want to ride the waves, since that is the path of least resistance. I don't care if the waves were produced by the weather (fundamentals) or a large boat speeding by (manipulation).
The Force is strong in this one.
I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm not in the "convincing" business.
  • #883
  • Sep 9, 2015 3:02am Sep 9, 2015 3:02am
Quoting SmoothTrader
{quote} It is true that markets can be manipulated, but it is on a time scale of hours and not days or weeks. When I was a floor trader, we could run stops and move markets on the scale of minutes. The large commercials could move markets on the scale of hours up to possibly a day or two. But the market will always continue to move where it is meant to go. There is always another Large Player somewhere that will recognize the move as an opportunity to take an opposite position. As a trader, I want to ride the waves, since that is the path of least...
What I mean to say is that anyone with an interest in the market is already manipulating it in a small dollar-weighted way.

Also, lets not forget the Hunt Brothers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Bunker_Hunt
  • #884
  • Sep 9, 2015 8:39am Sep 9, 2015 8:39am
Quoting Atokys
{quote} What I mean to say is that anyone with an interest in the market is already manipulating it in a small dollar-weighted way. Also, lets not forget the Hunt Brothers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Bunker_Hunt
The Hunt Brothers were able to almost "Corner" a market in a physical commodity that had limited supply and limited delivery locations.

A market (FX) with vast delivery locations and vast supply cannot be cornered. It can be manipulated by its Central Banks but even then when it is not in tune with the natural market it is doomed to fail ( Bank of England vs George Soros, and the recent SNB debacle come to mine).

FX Brokerages and Bank Trading Desks can go stop hunting, but as in my previous analogy, these are but ripples on the water of the waves. A good surfer (trader) is balanced enough (not over extended, proper leverage, prudent stop loss, etc.) that he is able to cut through these ripples without knocking himself off the board or the wave. If the wave is not to his liking (fundamentals don't line up, technical picture is not to his liking, indicators don't give a clear picture, or the moon is in the wrong phase - what ever he uses to choose a trade), he doesn't attempt to ride it. He waits on his board preserving his equipment and energy (keeping his powder dry) for the next wave (trade) to take him to his destination (profit). He knows there is no perfect wave, but for his style of surfing there definitely are GOOD waves (to be traded) and BAD waves (to be avoided).

May GREEN pips flow into you life at every turn.
  • #885
  • Sep 9, 2015 8:54am Sep 9, 2015 8:54am
Quoting SmoothTrader
{quote} The Hunt Brothers were able to almost "Corner" a market in a physical commodity that had limited supply and limited delivery locations. A market (FX) with vast delivery locations and vast supply cannot be cornered. It can be manipulated by its Central Banks but even then when it is not in tune with the natural market it is doomed to fail ( Bank of England vs George Soros, and the recent SNB debacle come to mine). FX Brokerages and Bank Trading Desks can go stop hunting, but as in my previous analogy, these are but ripples on the water of...
I don't think we have any disagreement.

The very act of participating in a market is already a form of manipulation whether it results in a tidal wave or an insignificant ripple.

The question brought up earlier is whether or not directed price manipulation by large players is directly responsible for retail traders losing. The answer is that retail traders only have themselves to blame because any technical system worth its salt has all eventualities accounted for in determining risk and reward. Again, I don't think we disagree.
  • #886
  • Sep 9, 2015 9:02am Sep 9, 2015 9:02am
Quoting Atokys
{quote} I don't think we have any disagreement. The very act of participating in a market is already a form of manipulation whether it results in a tidal wave or an insignificant ripple. The question brought up earlier is whether or not directed price manipulation by large players is directly responsible for retail traders losing. The answer is that retail traders only have themselves to blame because any technical system worth its salt has all eventualities accounted for in determining risk and reward. Again, I don't think we disagree.
AGREE 100%

GREEN pips to you and your family
  • #887
  • Sep 9, 2015 3:49pm Sep 9, 2015 3:49pm
Quoting skenobi
{quote} This bloody foreigner can speak English, thank YOU very much. I can even speak Governor Palin's "American". {quote} There is no conflict. ECN brokers are no different from any other corporate customer with FX requirements. {quote} Asked and answered then. {quote} Who is... what? Slaughtered by the hedge funds and banks? If anyone gets slaughtered, it's not because hedge funds and banks set out to purposefully annihilate. {quote} Consistently bad traders are weeded out very quickly, believe it or not. In any case, banks make...
Good to still see you here sir, sharing the truth
  • #888
  • Sep 9, 2015 4:24pm Sep 9, 2015 4:24pm
So for the most part, it's people like you and Jacob moving the markets. Guys Sat in banks, with big balances, paid to move markets. That's reassuring.


You said ECN brokers are just bank customers with FX requirements. I'm not getting this through my head; it sounds like you're saying ECN orders will be processed on the market? But you've said that retail is just a piggyback market which doesn't affect price. Could someone kindly alleviate my confusion?
"Never Take a Trade You Don't Understand!" - Pres78
  • #889
  • Sep 9, 2015 4:32pm Sep 9, 2015 4:32pm
My favorite thread on FF, have read and re-read this. Thanks to all.
  • #890
  • Edited Sep 10, 2015 5:58am Sep 9, 2015 8:50pm | Edited Sep 10, 2015 5:58am
Quoting ZeeDeveel
So for the most part, it's people like you and Jacob moving the markets.
For me, sure the bank players "move" the markets in the short-term but that's nothing compared to what moves the market in the broader long term which is whatever fundamental context or subtext we're in.

Quoting ZeeDeveel
Guys Sat in banks, with big balances, paid to move markets. That's reassuring.
We're paid to make money, not move markets. While FX markets generally move primarily due to Bank players, they can take it only as far as there's no resistance on the way (e.g. opposing orders). i.e. we're just riding the waves in the path of least resistance until the inevitable resistance occurs. (*credit to SmoothTrader for this analogy*)

Quoting ZeeDeveel
You said ECN brokers are just bank customers with FX requirements. I'm not getting this through my head; it sounds like you're saying ECN orders will be processed on the market?
I don't understand what you mean by "processed on the market".

Banks trade with each other and can compete in making the best prices in the market. These are "counterparties".

Corporates, retail brokers, exporters/importers, man-on-the-street etc etc have FX requirements with open risks that have to laid off elsewhere. These are "customers."

Customers don't make markets and will always be on the "taking"/"giving" end of the market (for now), as opposed to the "bidding"/"offering" that's enjoyed by the Banks.

A man on the street buying foreign currency cash on a street bureau de change is no different from a retail ECN laying off risk with its LP.

Still not getting it?
I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm not in the "convincing" business.
  • #891
  • Edited 6:44am Sep 10, 2015 6:23am | Edited 6:44am
Excellent, I'm starting to get it.

So intraday we can expect bank traders to move price up and down through areas of low resistance to order blocks so they can make their 20, 50, 80 pips and get their bonuses but over the longer term the market is driven by macroeconomics?

When you and "like minded individuals" are moving price to where you want it to go after having accumulated your longs or whatever, does the markup process involve continually buying and nudging the market in the right direction until it reaches the desired area? Perhaps when momentum slows, do you step in to keep it on track?

Also do you feel that before most big news releases, some big money players are already aware of the news content and have pre-positioned to profit?
"Never Take a Trade You Don't Understand!" - Pres78
  • #892
  • Sep 10, 2015 8:59am Sep 10, 2015 8:59am
Quoting ZeeDeveel
So intraday we can expect bank traders to move price up and down through areas of low resistance to order blocks so they can make their 20, 50, 80 pips and get their bonuses but over the longer term the market is driven by macroeconomics?
I would assume that the amount of buying/selling pressure that needs to be present to move price so someone can "make his pips" ends up costing more than it can gain.

The market is driven by the collective actions of its participants. Since this is something that is impossible to explain comprehensively, most traders adopt the belief pioneered by Jesse Livermore; that price travels along the path of least resistance.
  • #893
  • Sep 10, 2015 6:15pm Sep 10, 2015 6:15pm
Quoting Atokys
{quote} I would assume that the amount of buying/selling pressure that needs to be present to move price so someone can "make his pips" ends up costing more than it can gain. The market is driven by the collective actions of its participants. Since this is something that is impossible to explain comprehensively, most traders adopt the belief pioneered by Jesse Livermore; that price travels along the path of least resistance.
Dear Atokys

Could you give some explanations about the concept of ''the path of least resistance'' ?
thanks
Logic will take you from A to B Imagination will take you anywhere (A.E)
  • #894
  • Sep 10, 2015 9:24pm Sep 10, 2015 9:24pm
Quoting landsat
{quote} Dear Atokys Could you give some explanations about the concept of ''the path of least resistance'' ? thanks
Its not really a concept. Its just a useful belief that traders adopt to simplify the market. Some people feel uncomfortable with buying when price is high and selling when price is low so having this belief helps a lot.
  • #895
  • Sep 10, 2015 9:52pm Sep 10, 2015 9:52pm
Quoting ZeeDeveel
Excellent, I'm starting to get it. So intraday we can expect bank traders to move price up and down through areas of low resistance to order blocks so they can make their 20, 50, 80 pips and get their bonuses but over the longer term the market is driven by macroeconomics?
In the broad strokes, yes. Just also be aware that the concept of "least resistance" can also carry over in longer-term outlooks as well. it's just more acute and noticeable in intraday timeframes.

Quoting ZeeDeveel
When you and "like minded individuals" are moving price to where you want it to go after having accumulated your longs or whatever, does the markup process involve continually buying and nudging the market in the right direction until it reaches the desired area?
If some of us are inclined to. Otherwise, some of us just let other people to generate the momentum for us.

Quoting ZeeDeveel
Perhaps when momentum slows, do you step in to keep it on track?
(Same answer as above.)

Quoting ZeeDeveel
Also do you feel that before most big news releases, some big money players are already aware of the news content and have pre-positioned to profit?
Some are aware. Some are not. Some pray for pullbacks. Some don't even give a sh!t and are leaving buy stops and/or sell stops to catch the short-term waves. There are so many motivations out there, there's usually no one prevailing theme. Some, like me, don't bother trying to keep track of other people's motivations and classifying moves this way or that. We just trade.
I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm not in the "convincing" business.
  • #896
  • Edited 10:42pm Sep 10, 2015 10:22pm | Edited 10:42pm
Hi all
Two questions about institutional trader. Do they trade every day like day trader? how long usually they hold their position?
hope somebody can help me. thanks
Vedanta - The End Of Knowledge. ~ J. Krishnamurti ~
  • #897
  • Sep 10, 2015 10:45pm Sep 10, 2015 10:45pm
Quoting Aloen
Hi all Two questions about institutional trader. Do they trade every day like day trader? how long usually they hold their position? hope somebody can help me. thanks
You'll probably find a comprehensive answer in the first 20 pages of this thread. In any case, it's only 45 pages so far. And you have a whole weekend coming up to read.

Good luck!
I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm not in the "convincing" business.
  • #898
  • Sep 13, 2015 1:20am Sep 13, 2015 1:20am
Hi Skenobi,​

I've read through this thread from 2 days ago although the last few pages I've just skimmed through them. I have a couple of questions to ask you. But please pardon my English as I know I'm lacking in it.

Second, was the daily chart ends with New York close? Or that does not matter at all? I know from my previous experience that there's at least 2 type of daily candle which depend on their daily close however majority seems to be using New York close.

Again, my English is very lacking so you might misunderstood me. I have suspicion you might understand malay but it's not appropriate for for this thread.
  • #899
  • Sep 13, 2015 5:38am Sep 13, 2015 5:38am
This has probably been asked of you skenobi and if so, please forgive me. The question being, just how advanced is price discovery in the institutions. Are there any practitioners you encountered who kept the process close to their chest. I read somewhere that it is poorly understood.

Is it another variant of order flow perhaps or just another name fpr support and resistance.
The road to pipland is arduous and fraught with challenge.
  • #900
  • Sep 13, 2015 6:17am Sep 13, 2015 6:17am
Am away from my office on personal business. Back on 22nd. Perhaps the other institutionals can chime in?
I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm not in the "convincing" business.
3 traders viewing now