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Where Can I Find Deep Liquidity in FX?

  • #21
  • May 12, 2015 1:42pm May 12, 2015 1:42pm
Quoting bobbyspider
I'm in the US trying to pick a broker and it seems to me it's either Interactive Brokers or FXCM. I've heard good things from people I trust that IB has good spreads and fast fills and no funny business. However I like everything I've heard about FXCM EXCEPT for their stock price plummeting after the Swiss bomb, it just makes me worry that FXCM will go bankrupt and I'll lose my account... but so many people seem to trade with them, why aren't they worried? finding a trustworthy broker is way too complicated, it doesn't help when I see people posting...
I do not have many details on FXCM, but it definitely seems like a good signal that they got money from Jefferies parent company, Leucadia. I personally feel a lot more secure about FXCM than about smaller brokers.

That being said, from what I've heard with FXCM Pro it is possible to negotiate to leave the money in a bank account in your name, but that seems only possible if you trade a few yards a month, and you also have to pay extra comissions because you are tying up their money. (BTW, FXCM Pro is probably very very different from FXCM, they have great customer service, and their product offering is solid and more able to meet institutional clients demands than probably all of the other venues that were quoted in this thread).


Interactive Brokers had somewhat shallow liquidity. It has been a year I don't check their product, but from what I remember they had only about 20M available at a time, and customer service was not great, the person who I've talked to couldn't answer the more sophisticated questions. Spreads also didn't have decimal pip, they were quoted in 0.5 pips intervals.

I'll check them again, just to see if anything has changed.
  • #22
  • Edited 3:59pm May 12, 2015 1:57pm | Edited 3:59pm
Quoting sbc
you can have a look at cmc markets . Their pricing seems good to me for big clips with option of sales traders to provide better service.
From what I see in the website it is not the kind of broker that I am looking for, it seems like a extremely retail oriented broker. I'll add to my list and evaluate if I'll call. Thanks.

Edit: I did check them out. Spreads are wide and liquidity is shallow.

Quoting merrygold
Lmax, Atom8, LCG, Tradestation. I am VERY happy with atom8
I'll take a look at Lmax, Tradestation, and Atom8. LCG doesn't seem fit for me. Thanks.
  • #23
  • May 12, 2015 2:56pm May 12, 2015 2:56pm
FXCM is trying to sell the Pro division at the moment tho. Might end up with owners you dont want.

p.s.: you can watch the lmax live book here: https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/l...dget-vwap.html

p.p.s. Atom8 is a UK Dukascopy whitelabel
  • #24
  • May 12, 2015 3:13pm May 12, 2015 3:13pm
Quoting shrike
FXCM is trying to sell the Pro division at the moment tho. Might end up with owners you dont want. p.s.: you can watch the lmax live book here: https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/l...dget-vwap.html p.p.s. Atom8 is a UK Dukascopy whitelabel
What does 'UK Dukascopy whitelabel' mean?
  • #25
  • May 12, 2015 3:19pm May 12, 2015 3:19pm
Quoting xMeruem
{quote} What does 'UK Dukascopy whitelabel' mean?
Its a UK firm that is using the Dukascopy trading-platform and pricing.
  • #26
  • May 12, 2015 3:20pm May 12, 2015 3:20pm
Quoting xMeruem
{quote} I'm definitely considering Atom 8, what account do you have and could you describe why you like them so much? Also, do they have New York Close charts or the 6 day week charts?
Hey,

I got i Commision free ecn account, i trade htf. But they also offer a raw spread ecn account but with commision.
I like the great spreads, the spread is good on the entire pair list. Fast execution, fast customer support, fast deposit, fast withdrawal (Big withdrawal also no problem 2-6 days withdrawal time to bank account >50K) - And in my time i havent had any server hang.

Yes they got the 6 days chart.

Hope you get my point, english is not my native language

M
MY SITTING, NEVER MY THINKING!
  • #27
  • May 12, 2015 3:21pm May 12, 2015 3:21pm
Quoting shrike
{quote} Its a UK firm that is using the Dukascopy trading-platform and pricing.
That's a good thing then right? I don't know about Dukascopy
  • #28
  • May 12, 2015 3:57pm May 12, 2015 3:57pm
Quoting actalis
{quote} Funny business is IB charging up to 3 times as much in overnight rollover than FXCM...
Thanks for bringing that up.

Quoting Unabletrader
Hi. In my opinion, Dukascopy remains the best broker from a retail perspective. I mean, if you can do business with top banks or institutional brokers providing high quality services, do it. Otherwise Dukascopy would be a better solution than LCG, LMAX, IG, etc.
I am not sure to which companies do you refer to when you say institutional brokers. But some of the companies I mentioned in the original post probably qualify as those. Besides having a more sophisticated customer support, I don't see much advantage on using those over Dukascopy. And by that I mean that it is not clearly an easy decision for me to choose between the aforementioned. Do you see this in a different light? If yes, why?

As for top banks, I will probably let them go for the moment. I did a few more contacts and got asked to show my company's financial details before proceeding with the talk and being able to see their product offering. I am not that thrilled in doing business this way.

But, I am still very very interested in hearing about other people experiences. I am rather curious to know what kind of spreads and depth do they offer. Which are the less bureaucratic banks, which have the best liquidity and so on...

Quoting Unabletrader
I prefer Swiss regulation and Dukascopy has a better pricing than the others if you're a high volume trader.
Why do you prefer Swiss regulation? I am not familiar with it, I would appreciate if you could give me an overview.

Quoting Unabletrader
They also say you can trade 200 mio per click. The only issue is their GBPUSD spread isn't better than the brokers you mentionned. {image} but EU and UJ are cheap.
Do you know in fact if they are able to execute a 200Mio clip decently? I tend not trust too much the brokers in this kind of situation, and they always seem a bit reluctant to share execution data.

I'll have a closer look at the EU and UJ.

Thanks for the post.
  • #29
  • May 12, 2015 4:49pm May 12, 2015 4:49pm
By institutional brokers I mean brokers like newedge for example. But I don't know a lot of things http://www.newedge.com/


I prefer the Swiss regulation because it's more strict and your funds are covered up to 100K. Dukascopy provides an interesting solution for high account https://www.dukascopy.com/swiss/engl...ex/custodian/#

You can open an account in a Geneva bank and directly trough Duka's marketplace. So your money is in a safe place. About the liquidity, as Dukascopy is your counterparty I assume that they have an access to top liquidity providers.

Are my trading orders going to the interbank market? Can Dukascopy Bank be the counterparty of my trades?
Notwithstanding the fact that the SWFX – Swiss FX Marketplace is an ECN, Dukascopy Bank is the counterparty of all its clients’ trades executed on the SWFX. Dukascopy Bank sends orders to the interbank market in its own name for its own needs such as hedging exposures and/or testing validity of prices received from liquidity providers. Not all clients’ trades necessarily result in hedging orders sent to the interbank market by Dukascopy Bank. For instance the small size of a trade may have an incidence on the ability of Dukascopy Bank to hedge it with its counterparties since the latter may not accept trades under a certain minimum size.
  • #30
  • May 12, 2015 5:48pm May 12, 2015 5:48pm
Quoting SingYeh
https://trade.z.com/uk/en/
Thanks, I'll take a look.

Quoting AdyFMP
I like this site, it's pretty impartial! Just click advanced search next to the page number, jam in your personal requirements and it'll spit you out a list of brokers that suit your needs! http://www.forexchurch.com/compare-forex-brokers.cfm
Thanks, I'll take a look.

Quoting Bicarus
{quote} forget about all these prop brokerages, go directly to bloomberg's trading platform. suite everything u are asking of.
Thanks for the answer.

I imagine I will need a PB to trade there. Could you share more details about the onboarding process?

What kind of numbers do they show on depth and pricing and how those compare to the venues that were mentioned in this thread?

Quoting Bicarus
http://www.bloomberg.com/professional/foreign-exchange/ so far best in dept liquidity. but as u said because of ur jurisdiction, doj might question stuff. with isis and russia on the rampant now.
The jurisdiction I am incorporated at is not that bad. It is not on FATF blacklist or anything of that sort. It is just seems like it is not a very usual jurisdiction for financial companies. Still, DOJ might question stuff.
  • #31
  • May 12, 2015 7:10pm May 12, 2015 7:10pm
Quoting bobbyspider
I like everything I've heard about FXCM EXCEPT for their stock price plummeting after the Swiss bomb, it just makes me worry that FXCM will go bankrupt and I'll lose my account... but so many people seem to trade with them, why aren't they worried?
Quoting xMeruem
The way they were so badly affected by that Swiss nuke really put me off. I like how they seem but the fact they got bailed out just puts too much doubt in my head. Their spreads seem pretty good and they're insanely popular lol. I don't fully understand why that is tbh.
Quoting cabeltrader
I do not have many details on FXCM, but it definitely seems like a good signal that they got money from Jefferies parent company, Leucadia. I personally feel a lot more secure about FXCM than about smaller brokers.
Hi folks, I don't wish to take this thread off topic, so I'll just link to a post I made in another discussion about FXCM's financials: http://www.forexfactory.com/showthre...39#post8148039 If you have any follow up questions, please feel free to post them in that other thread.

Quoting cabeltrader
That being said, from what I've heard with FXCM Pro it is possible to negotiate to leave the money in a bank account in your name, but that seems only possible if you trade a few yards a month, and you also have to pay extra comissions because you are tying up their money.
What you have described is called a custodial trading account and is available to FXCM clients with an account balance of at least 500k. For details, please email [email protected]
  • #32
  • May 12, 2015 9:01pm May 12, 2015 9:01pm
Quoting cabeltrader
{quote} Thanks, I'll take a look. {quote} Thanks, I'll take a look. {quote} Thanks for the answer. I imagine I will need a PB to trade there. Could you share more details about the onboarding process? What kind of numbers do they show on depth and pricing and how those compare to the venues that were mentioned in this thread? {quote} The jurisdiction I am incorporated at is not that bad. It is not on FATF blacklist or anything of that sort. It is just seems like it is not a very usual jurisdiction for financial companies. Still, DOJ might question...
If you're not too sure who is institutional stick with publicly traded companies. Look at IB's financials that i mentioned earlier, their average (AVERAGE!) account size is over 200k. read their press releases...
  • #33
  • May 12, 2015 9:20pm May 12, 2015 9:20pm
Quoting shrike
FXCM is trying to sell the Pro division at the moment tho. Might end up with owners you dont want.
Great information, thank you.

I didn't know that the Pro division could be sold. I'll keep that in mind!

Quoting shrike
p.s.: you can watch the lmax live book here: https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/l...dget-vwap.html
I am checking the LMAX feed. Liquidity seems somewhat shallow, less than 35M on GU, and spreads are 1 pip larger than what I can get on other venues for 25M clips on GU.

Quoting shrike
p.p.s. Atom8 is a UK Dukascopy whitelabel
I found this out just a bit before of seeing this message. Liquidity and pricing seems to be exactly the same.

Quoting merrygold
{quote} Hey, I got i Commision free ecn account, i trade htf. But they also offer a raw spread ecn account but with commision. I like the great spreads, the spread is good on the entire pair list. Fast execution, fast customer support, fast deposit, fast withdrawal (Big withdrawal also no problem 2-6 days withdrawal time to bank account >50K) - And in my time i havent had any server hang. Yes they got the 6 days chart. Hope you get my point, english is not my native language M
Thanks for the info!

Quoting xMeruem
{quote} That's a good thing then right? I don't know about Dukascopy
I tend to see this as a bad thing, because there is one more intermediate between you and the LPs.

It is: "You -> Dukascopy -> LPs" vs "You -> Atom8 -> Dukascopy -> LPs"

Although there could be some specifics in the arrengement that makes it a good deal... I tend to think it is somewhat unlikely...
  • #34
  • May 12, 2015 10:10pm May 12, 2015 10:10pm
Quoting Unabletrader
By institutional brokers I mean brokers like newedge for example. But I don't know a lot of things http://www.newedge.com/
Thanks for the answer.

From what I understand NewEdge was bought by SocGen and there seems to be only one product offering now. There is even this message "Our offering is now fully integrated into Societe Generale Corporate & Investment Banking (SG CIB)." on their website.

And also, how is in your perception NewEdge was different from FC Stone for example?

Does anyone have experience with NewEdge/SocGen?

Quoting Unabletrader
I prefer the Swiss regulation because it's more strict and your funds are covered up to 100K. Dukascopy provides an interesting solution for high account https://www.dukascopy.com/swiss/engl...ex/custodian/# You can open an account in a Geneva bank and directly trough Duka's marketplace. So your money is in a safe place.
Yes, their custodian bank solution is amazing. The banks they offer are:

  1. Bank CIC (Switzerland)
  2. EFG Bank S.A.
  3. CBH - Compagnie Bancaire Helvtique S.A.

I am not familiar with any of these banks. Could anyone comment?

Quoting Unabletrader
About the liquidity, as Dukascopy is your counterparty I assume that they have an access to top liquidity providers.
Liquidity seems very good indeed.
  • #35
  • Edited 10:46pm May 12, 2015 10:35pm | Edited 10:46pm
Quoting Jason Rogers
{quote} {quote} {quote} Hi folks, I don't wish to take this thread off topic, so I'll just link to a post I made in another discussion about FXCM's financials: http://www.forexfactory.com/showthre...39#post8148039 If you have any follow up questions, please feel free to post them in that other thread. {quote} What you have described is called a custodial trading account and is available to FXCM clients with an account balance of at least 500k. For details, please email [email protected] ("[email protected]")...
Jason, thanks for hoping in and adding this relevant content to our discussion.

Quoting b.shelton
{quote} If you're not too sure who is institutional stick with publicly traded companies. Look at IB's financials that i mentioned earlier, their average (AVERAGE!) account size is over 200k. read their press releases...
Thanks for the post Shelton.

First of all, institutional is a somewhat vague definition and it is hard to draw a line where retail ends and institutional starts. Being institutional on BofAML where the average account size is something like 137M is something very very different from being "institutional" on Interactive Brokers, or in some of the companies I mentioned on the original post that very very likely have average account sizes of way over than 200k, as most of them require 100k as minimum deposit, and some require up to 500k.

But, the point I want to take home in this post is that being institutional or not isn't that relevant per se, it usually correlates with better and more sophisticated customer service, improved security of funds, better pricing, deeper liquidity, etc... But, it is of utmost importance to detach ourselves from those vague labels and to evaluate each of these items individually (and many more!!) and so to objectively decide where is the best place for you to do business with. (Something similar in structure could be argued for public vs private companies).
  • #36
  • May 12, 2015 11:07pm May 12, 2015 11:07pm
Did you have a look at ADM Derivatives?
http://www.admd.com/home
  • #37
  • May 12, 2015 11:20pm May 12, 2015 11:20pm
you must be seeing really good spreads cableTrader because my mate who trades in big clips with cmc markets told me that he gets 20 mio GU clips in 4 pip spread ( bid - ask ) including commissions !

do you mind sharing where do you see your tight spreads ? could be helpful to use that platform then
  • #38
  • Edited 11:49pm May 12, 2015 11:37pm | Edited 11:49pm
Quoting fido
Did you have a look at ADM Derivatives? http://www.admd.com/home
Thanks for the suggestion fido.

In fact, I've talked quite a bit with them about one year ago. They do have some interesting things on their product offering, but at that time the liquidity was somewhat shallow.

Do you have more specifics on where they stand now? It could be worth contacting them again.

Quoting sbc
you must be seeing really good spreads cableTrader because my mate who trades in big clips with cmc markets told me that he gets 20 mio GU clips in 4 pip spread ( bid - ask ) including commissions ! do you mind sharing where do you see your tight spreads ? could be helpful to use that platform then
Sure, today at 19:35 GMT, GBP/USD VWAP spreads for 20M were:

FC Stone - 1.35 pip + comissions
Invast - 1.66 pip (with comissions built in)
Gain GTX - 1.6 pip + comissions
Dukascopy - 1.64 pip + comissions

Comissions are somewhere around .15-.40 of a pip round trip.

I am still unsure about execution on all of those venues, but I believe it is safe to say that you can get an improvement from a 4 pip spread. BTW, it would be great if someone has TCA data to share, or anything else that helps shed a more objective light about execution on some of the venues.
  • #39
  • May 13, 2015 6:18am May 13, 2015 6:18am
Try this if u have enough funds
http://www.abnamroclearing.com/en/sp...ing/index.html
  • #40
  • May 13, 2015 7:37am May 13, 2015 7:37am
Quoting M967
Try this if u have enough funds http://www.abnamroclearing.com/en/sp...ing/index.html
Yes i doubt this going to happen. Banks have become very selective on which clients they onboard. 10 years ago it was different, basically deposit 1M (some even less) and you were good to go. Rabobank was the go-to bank for smaller firms. But they quit the PB business all together (after one of their clients had an expensive accident), as did a few other banks, others downsized their PB operations and threw out clients that were considered too risky and/or did not produce enough business.
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