• Home
  • Forums
  • Trades
  • News
  • Calendar
  • Market
  • Brokers
  • Login
  • Join
  • User/Email: Password:
  • 4:21am
Menu
  • Forums
  • Trades
  • News
  • Calendar
  • Market
  • Brokers
  • Login
  • Join
  • 4:21am
Sister Sites
  • Metals Mine
  • Energy EXCH
  • Crypto Craft

Options

Bookmark Thread

First Page First Unread Last Page Last Post

Print Thread

Similar Threads

Successful Trading & Determining the Probability of a Trading System 10 replies

ECN && STP && Scalping && Hedging - Broker Review - Oct 2009 24 replies

probability of success in trading according to the risk-reward 20 replies

My Low Risk Hig Probability Trading System with aggressive MM 6 replies

Risk Reward +Probability [Poll & discussion] 2 replies

  • Trading Discussion
  • /
  • Reply to Thread
  • Subscribe
Tags: Probability, Expected Value, & High-Risk Trading
Cancel

Probability, Expected Value, & High-Risk Trading

  • Post #1
  • Quote
  • First Post: Edited 1:47am May 6, 2015 1:31am | Edited 1:47am
  •  Nico1359
  • Joined Jul 2014 | Status: Member | 214 Posts
Suppose a friend comes to you with a proposition:

"Here is a regular six-sided die. You put up $25 to roll a minimum of 5 times. If you roll a 1 thru 4, I double your money. If you roll a 5 or a 6, I keep your $25. You can play till you win 5 in a row or you are broke."

Would you take the offer?

The probability of rolling a 1 thru 4 is approximately 67%. The probability of doing it 5 times in a row is... 4/6 x 4/6 x 4/6 x 4/6 x 4/6 = .1316 = 13%

The expected value of such a proposition is... (.13 x $800) + (.87 x -$25) = $82.25

So statistically speaking, this is a winning proposition. Now, let's apply it to trading.

Trader A has $800 to start with. Assuming he is a good trader, a 67% win rate is reasonable. Also, assume a somewhat conventional MM approach where that trader earns a very respectable 10% a month. After 1 year, Trader A would have $2,510 in their account.

Trader B also has $800 to start and also wins at a 67% rate. Assuming he has access to a high-leverage broker (say 1000:1), he can in theory double his account balance with a somewhat small market movement (say 10-20 pips). He chooses only to deposit $25, and takes the approach from our dice game. He will have a total of 32 deposits before he is broke. Say he goes a month or so and has yet to win 5 in a row. He has deposited 8 different times and is down to $600. Then, he finally wins 5 in a row, taking his total to $1,400 after, say, 6 weeks time. Then, he starts the process again, now with $40. He has 35 total deposits. Assume once again, he loses 8 times. Now he's down to $1,080. Then he wins 5 in a row taking his total to $2,360. So, in 3 months time he has made nearly what Trader A made in an entire year.

The "X factor", of course, is statistical variance. How long will it actually take someone with a 67% win rate to cash in on that 13% likelihood? He may go on a favorable stretch and take his account to five figures in just a couple months. He may burn through all 32 deposits of $25 without ever hitting 5 in a row. The question is... Is it reasonable to think that Trader B can be far more successful than Trader A?
  • Post #2
  • Quote
  • May 6, 2015 7:39am May 6, 2015 7:39am
  •  nolimitz
  • | Joined Apr 2015 | Status: Member | 33 Posts
No, since we should look at their performance in a long term that would be equal for both of them. Also, success to fail ratio for first will be higher.
 
 
  • Post #3
  • Quote
  • May 6, 2015 10:23am May 6, 2015 10:23am
  •  Nico1359
  • Joined Jul 2014 | Status: Member | 214 Posts
I agree that Trader A is more likely to be consistently successful in the long-term. But this thread isn't about sustainability. It's about who has greater earning potential at this moment, given their individual risk profiles.
 
 
  • Post #4
  • Quote
  • May 7, 2015 9:56am May 7, 2015 9:56am
  •  Nico1359
  • Joined Jul 2014 | Status: Member | 214 Posts
I think the biggest obstacle is having a win rate % in the 60s. Having said that, getting a >80 rate while maintaining a 1:1 R/R ratio takes considerable ability.
 
 
  • Post #5
  • Quote
  • Edited 11:43pm May 7, 2015 11:25pm | Edited 11:43pm
  •  shibboleth
  • | Joined Jun 2014 | Status: Member | 44 Posts
I have been thinking quite alot along the mathematical line of betting and trading. Still trying to figure things out.

In my opinion, main challenge in the example you have given is not win rate of 60% alone, it is R:R of 1:1 with win rate of 60%
 
 
  • Post #6
  • Quote
  • May 8, 2015 8:54am May 8, 2015 8:54am
  •  limzy
  • Joined Jul 2014 | Status: Member | 191 Posts
you will probably be more successful if you scale your risks according to equity size with everything else remaining equal. compounding, thats what all we're after.
 
 
  • Post #7
  • Quote
  • Edited 11:07am May 10, 2015 10:36am | Edited 11:07am
  •  shellsnail
  • Joined Aug 2012 | Status: Trends, Levels, Confirmation, Bayes | 1,834 Posts
Quoting Nico1359
Disliked
Suppose a friend comes to you with a proposition: "Here is a regular six-sided die. You put up $25 to roll a minimum of 5 times. If you roll a 1 thru 4, I double your money. If you roll a 5 or a 6, I keep your $25. You can play till you win 5 in a row or you are broke." Would you take the offer? The probability of rolling a 1 thru 4 is approximately 67%. The probability of doing it 5 times in a row is... 4/6 x 4/6 x 4/6 x 4/6 x 4/6 = .1316 = 13% The expected value of such a proposition is... (.13 x $800) + (.87 x -$25) = $82.25 So statistically...
Ignored
Not exactly a fair comparison. With such high win ratio, the odds of losing 10 trades in a row/risk of ruin is close to zero. Trader A can thus risk a much higher %, say 10% of his account per trade. 0.9^10 = 0.34. This using your benchmark of 10% becomes ~53% per month (on 15 trades, 10 winners, 5 losses) and 350% over 3 months. Thus trader A makes more than trader B, 2874 v.s. 2360. I'm pretty sure if you equate their expected drawdown on the total capital or risk-of-ruin ratios, trader A will always on average outperform trader B because of compounding.

If we consider each deposit to be an independent trial to get 5 in a row, then the probability of 32 failures in a row is around 1.16%. (Take 0.87^32) That is quite a significant risk of ruin compared to the case of Trader A even when Trader A is risking 10% per trade (the probability of getting a 66% drawdown is around 0.0017% -- take 0.33^10 = 0.0017% and 0.9^10 = 66% drawdown) Moreover using the same broker, Trader A's strategy is totally feasible whereas Trader B's isn't because you can't actually risk 100% of your account on a trade.
Build good relationships with others.
 
 
  • Post #8
  • Quote
  • Last Post: May 10, 2015 11:25am May 10, 2015 11:25am
  •  Nico1359
  • Joined Jul 2014 | Status: Member | 214 Posts
Quoting shellsnail
Disliked
{quote} Not exactly a fair comparison. With such high win ratio, the odds of losing 10 trades in a row/risk of ruin is close to zero. Trader A can thus risk a much higher %, say 10% of his account per trade. 0.9^10 = 0.34. This using your benchmark of 10% becomes ~53% per month (on 15 trades, 10 winners, 5 losses) and 350% over 3 months. Thus trader A makes more than trader B, 2874 v.s. 2360. I'm pretty sure if you equate their expected drawdown on the total capital or risk-of-ruin ratios, trader A will always on average outperform trader B because...
Ignored

I agree that if Trader A is taking a more aggressive risk approach -- say 10% as opposed to 2 - 4% -- then he will most certainly outperform Trader B, who always has to win 5 in a row and has a higher risk of ruin under the circumstances.
 
 
  • Trading Discussion
  • /
  • Probability, Expected Value, & High-Risk Trading
  • Reply to Thread
0 traders viewing now
Top of Page
  • Facebook
  • Twitter
About FF
  • Mission
  • Products
  • User Guide
  • Media Kit
  • Blog
  • Contact
FF Products
  • Forums
  • Trades
  • Calendar
  • News
  • Market
  • Brokers
  • Trade Explorer
FF Website
  • Homepage
  • Search
  • Members
  • Report a Bug
Follow FF
  • Facebook
  • Twitter

FF Sister Sites:

  • Metals Mine
  • Energy EXCH
  • Crypto Craft

Forex Factory® is a brand of Fair Economy, Inc.

Terms of Service / ©2023