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Prime of Prime Broker

  • #41
  • Feb 15, 2015 6:38pm Feb 15, 2015 6:38pm
Quoting Unabletrader
They do not offer neither CFDs nor small account I guess. So they "could" only offer ECN solution.
Yes : They are not brokers, they can't hold a market like CFD and allow small account/order size. The genuine Forex is an interbank market, banks don't accept small orders. If you want to be in genuine trading conditions, being with the other professionnals, you need enough money. Otherwise, you're considered as a retail and you have access to retail trading conditions, not the professionnal one.

Quoting Unabletrader
The problem is you picture the ECN thing like sth exclusive. A broker may offer an ECN solution some of its clients and another one to others. For example, you're trading trough the ECN solution when you trade fx products at Duka. However, Duka is the counterpart when you trade a CFD. It's written on their website..
They are countepart for forex too.

Quoting Unabletrader
Don't forget that in ECN: 1) Traders (retail, institutional, banks) provide liquidity too. It means that in a very liquid environment, traders may trade directly with each other. 2) When liquidity isn't enough, the broker provide it and hedge its position by taking a trade on the interbank market. A sophisticated technology allows to hedge even HFT trades. The conflict of interest is erased if the broker does its job well..
They can also choose to do not hedge client's trades in order to take clients losses. Dukas does it, they told it to me...

It is true that MM are not all bad. They have bad reputation because of two main reasons :
- bad MM are real scam
- FXCM commercial in promoting non dealing desk against dealing desk...

There are also good MM, fair and honest. The only way to know is to compare charts and quotes with another provider. For sure if you don't have enough money to go on institutionnal/professionnal accounts, without any doubt, Dukascopy is the best choice for forex.
  • #42
  • Feb 16, 2015 6:32am Feb 16, 2015 6:32am
Quoting MaximeCau
{quote} They require 100k. No more FX. What about IG Markets ? Their DMA seems good. I'm going to try them.
my bad, i haven't checked their website in a while.

no idea about IG markets, but personally as soon as i get enough found i'll go with Baxter-fx.
why stay with the retails when you can get into serious business ? , better pricing, deeper liquidity, better execution, being able to trade on multiple platform simultaneously. .....
i lose money for a living
  • #43
  • Feb 16, 2015 6:39am Feb 16, 2015 6:39am
Quoting Unabletrader
{quote} A Broker like Dukascopy couldn't be a fake ECN. I'm living in Geneva and I can tell you it's just impossible to get a regulation from FINMA by lying. If Dukascopy is known an ECN, it means that they are actually are. SWFX is the Dukascopy liquidity's pool. You can even open an account in some banks and trade trough SWFX without opening a Duka's account. BUT on the other hand, it doesn't mean that Dukascopy can't be your conterpart on some products in some cases. I.e CFDs. A broker may provide an ECN solution to professionnal traders and...
i'v never heard any serious complaints about duckascopy so far, but i wouldn't go with a broker that offers binary options and their website doesn't look serious at all. (miss duckascopy, social trading, blogs... wtf ?!)
i'm pretty sure they do work as dealing desk most of the time.
i lose money for a living
  • #44
  • Feb 16, 2015 8:57am Feb 16, 2015 8:57am
Quoting mitch77
CFH Clearing is a prime of prime broker. Not that I have enough capital but putting it out there for anyone that might be interested. http://www.cfhclearing.com/
CFH has really shit spreads!
  • #45
  • Feb 16, 2015 9:02am Feb 16, 2015 9:02am
I am in talks with FIXI now, going well.

They get 0.3 pips on the euro. Today is a US bank holiday too.
  • #46
  • Feb 16, 2015 9:43am Feb 16, 2015 9:43am
Quoting plotinus82
I am in talks with FIXI now, going well. They get 0.3 pips on the euro. Today is a US bank holiday too.
May i ask what your average trade size is?
Forex is a losers game.
  • #47
  • Feb 16, 2015 9:51am Feb 16, 2015 9:51am
Quoting trader121
{quote} May i ask what your average trade size is?
Used to be 20 Million.....

Now, significantly lower leverage, let's say 10 - 12.5 at max with a max exposure at 50 just to keep my margin levels....

1 - 2 Million each clip.... One - Two clips a day....
  • #48
  • Feb 16, 2015 10:13am Feb 16, 2015 10:13am
Quoting plotinus82
{quote} Used to be 20 Million..... Now, significantly lower leverage, let's say 10 - 12.5 at max with a max exposure at 50 just to keep my margin levels.... 1 - 2 Million each clip.... One - Two clips a day....
So let's say Price is at 1.3000 and you want to trade 10 Million.... I guess 10 Million is not available per click? So your fill Price would be about 1.2999 approx. 1 pip lower until your full 10 Million order is filled, is that right?
Forex is a losers game.
  • #49
  • Feb 16, 2015 10:40am Feb 16, 2015 10:40am
Quoting trader121
{quote} So let's say Price is at 1.3000 and you want to trade 10 Million.... I guess 10 Million is not available per click? So your fill Price would be about 1.2999 approx. 1 pip lower until your full 10 Million order is filled, is that right?
You can trade 10M per click, depends on your liquidity providers.

Dukascopy allows 200M in one-click with low slippage.
  • #50
  • Feb 16, 2015 11:11am Feb 16, 2015 11:11am
Quoting trader121
{quote} So let's say Price is at 1.3000 and you want to trade 10 Million.... I guess 10 Million is not available per click? So your fill Price would be about 1.2999 approx. 1 pip lower until your full 10 Million order is filled, is that right?
You can trade 10 mil but at retail brokers it'll be shit pricing.

Hence I am looking for a PoP, all my accounts are six digit, I'm doing this on the side of my day to day work, which is portfolio management.
  • #51
  • Feb 16, 2015 11:47am Feb 16, 2015 11:47am
Quoting plotinus82
{quote} You can trade 10 mil but at retail brokers it'll be shit pricing. Hence I am looking for a PoP, all my accounts are six digit, I'm doing this on the side of my day to day work, which is portfolio management.
Interesting... thanks.

Another question. If you make a trade with your new Prime Broker FIXI. Who is taking the other side of that trade?
Forex is a losers game.
  • #52
  • Feb 16, 2015 11:54am Feb 16, 2015 11:54am
Quoting trader121
{quote} Interesting... thanks. Another question. If you make a trade with your new Prime Broker FIXI. Who is taking the other side of that trade?
Well FIXI is not a PB, it's a PoP but in this case, it'll be the bank, or, someone who they've matched you up with on Currenex or etc. Usually it's a match up at this size
  • #53
  • Feb 16, 2015 12:09pm Feb 16, 2015 12:09pm
Commission on IG is retarded though

Size (millions of USD)Charge (USD per million)
1500 +10
< 1500 20
< 500 30
< 100 60
  • #54
  • Feb 19, 2015 9:12am Feb 19, 2015 9:12am
Quoting plotinus82
Commission on IG is retarded though Size (millions of USD)Charge (USD per million) 1500 +10 < 1500 20 < 500 30 < 100 60
Its not the only thing that sounds retarded from their site:

It is important to note that while you are trading based on underlying market prices and depth, what you actually receive on placing a trade is a CFD from us. It works like this:

  1. DMA displays the best bid and offer price available for a particular market, plus further prices on either side of the order book
  2. You place an order using a DMA Deal Ticket and we instantaneously conduct a margin check to ensure you have sufficient funds on account to cover margin on your proposed trade
  3. If the margin check is satisfied, we place an order in our name in the market and, simultaneous to this, create a parallel CFD between you and us.


This sounds weird or maybe they are just more honest than the other "ecn brokers" that allow small accounts

  • #55
  • Edited 10:05am Feb 19, 2015 9:32am | Edited 10:05am
Quoting mitch77
{quote} Its not the only thing that sounds retarded from their site: It is important to note that while you are trading based on underlying market prices and depth, what you actually receive on placing a trade is a CFD from us. It works like this: DMA displays the best bid and offer price available for a particular market, plus further prices on either side of the order book You place an order using a DMA Deal Ticket and we instantaneously conduct a margin check to ensure you have sufficient funds on account to cover margin on your proposed trade...
It can't be under your name since your funds are under IG markets' name... So the transaction is made between IG and a counterparty and another contract is made between you and IG.

They only require enough margin and that's why you can trade with only 1 000 deposit. But the minimum trade size is 1 contract, 100k of the base currency. To really trade 100k you need around 20k in your account.

With LCG FX it was working like this : quote from Gavin Foster, LCG FX Head of FX

"You have an account with us so we are your counterparty, LCG have an account with our Prime broker Citibank so we become their counterparty and they are counterparty to the market making bank with whom you traded. Remember you do not have an account with either the prime broker ( citibank) or the market making bank so it would not be possible for them to settle the trade directly with you in your name."
  • #56
  • Feb 19, 2015 11:03am Feb 19, 2015 11:03am
Quoting MaximeCau
{quote} It can't be under your name since your funds are under IG markets' name... So the transaction is made between IG and a counterparty and another contract is made between you and IG. They only require enough margin and that's why you can trade with only 1 000 deposit. But the minimum trade size is 1 contract, 100k of the base currency. To really trade 100k you need around 20k in your account. With LCG FX it was working like this : quote from Gavin Foster, LCG FX Head of FX "You have an account with us so we are your counterparty, LCG have...
Mate Gavin's no longer there
  • #57
  • Feb 19, 2015 11:33am Feb 19, 2015 11:33am
Quoting MaximeCau
{quote} It can't be under your name since your funds are under IG markets' name... So the transaction is made between IG and a counterparty and another contract is made between you and IG. They only require enough margin and that's why you can trade with only 1 000 deposit. But the minimum trade size is 1 contract, 100k of the base currency. To really trade 100k you need around 20k in your account. With LCG FX it was working like this : quote from Gavin Foster, LCG FX Head of FX "You have an account with us so we are your counterparty, LCG have...
Ok thanks for explaining.
  • #58
  • Feb 19, 2015 11:38am Feb 19, 2015 11:38am
Quoting plotinus82
{quote} Mate Gavin's no longer there

That was a discussion I had with him a year ago.

Quoting mitch77
{quote} Ok thanks for explaining.
The proof a real DMA is the order size :
- Currenex : $100k average per order
- Interbank : 1 contract : 100k of the base currency.

Lower than that it is no more DMA...
  • #59
  • Feb 19, 2015 12:25pm Feb 19, 2015 12:25pm
BS. Interbank, as in EBS Markets or Reuters, min size is 1 million. But banks offer down to 1K for different clients. See lmax LPs for example. Also you can trade 10K on hotspot.
  • #60
  • Feb 19, 2015 1:48pm Feb 19, 2015 1:48pm
Quoting shrike
BS. Interbank, as in EBS Markets or Reuters, min size is 1 million. But banks offer down to 1K for different clients. See lmax LPs for example. Also you can trade 10K on hotspot.
It depends on your requirements. I mean, who would trade with Prime Brokers and trade with trade sizes less than 10k?

It's like if you want to buy a Ferrari but want to drive only 50MPH. If your trade size is less than 10k = 0.1 Units = 1$per pip it would make more sense to use a "standard" broker.

My minumum trade size I require is 10k
Forex is a losers game.
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