Brokers chasing you for negative account balance | Page 19 | Forex Factory

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Brokers chasing you for negative account balance

  • #361
  • Jan 23, 2015 9:42am Jan 23, 2015 9:42am
Saxo bank: Max. Bnk losses on swiss franc will be $107m, net
  • #362
  • Jan 23, 2015 12:04pm Jan 23, 2015 12:04pm
Quoting goldfinch
{quote} If I hadn't disclosed I have a financial interest it would have been misleading, I have been very clear in that. {quote} They will probably do just that, see what country has the most and get a trial case going to see if it will fly. They will need a precedent somewhere, well worth spending a few 100k on.
I'm not sure what connections Goldfinch has with FXCM or what are his interests in negative balances being repaid, but all his emails speaks for themselves.

Let me be clear that anyone who has a negative balance with FXCM will end up winning in Court.

A contract can be abusive or even illegal. And even if the contract is legal, the SNB decision and its consequences constituting a Force majeure event is really legally debatable.

Finally, no matter what the verdict will be regarding their force majeure point, the advertising material specifying the "no balance policy" will prevail. In all countries (in Europe at least,not sure about America) when it comes to retail clients protection the Financial professional party has to be as clean as white snow to hope to win. And it certainly ain't the case with FXCM. As a pro you just can't win when you are half lying, not matter the small lines.

I shall add that FXCM holds a fair share of responsibility in not preventing the loss sustained by most of its clients. When some competitors took measures to protect their clients by :

  1. releasing specific warnings about the risk that the peg might break and that the liquidity might vanish to a point that stops wouldnt be triggered. That negative balances might occur. That such break would constitute a force majeure if it was to happen
  2. reducing the leverage (as they are doing now),
  3. increasing the margin requirements (as they also are doing now)
  4. or by making the trade unavailable (FXCM did it for not long ago for the USD/RUB).

How come they did nothing when they had so many clients at risk in their book? How come they are the one who suffered the most from this event?

Legally Financial professionals have all those above responsibilities toward their clients. and in Europe many Courts would condemn FXCM for such lack of anticipation and lask of warnings and lack of measures to prevent the losses. Retail clients are idiots and are treated as such by Courts. FXCM had no right to be near as idiot as their clients. And they have.

  • #363
  • Jan 23, 2015 12:57pm Jan 23, 2015 12:57pm
Quoting RudiMar
{quote} I'm not sure what connections Goldfinch has with FXCM or what are his interests in negative balances being repaid, but all his emails speaks for themselves. Let me be clear that anyone who has a negative balance with FXCM will end up winning in Court. A contract can be abusive or even illegal. And even if the contract is legal, the SNB decision and its consequences constituting a Force majeure event is really legally debatable. Finally, no matter what the verdict will be regarding their force majeure point, the advertising material specifying...
FXCM is a New "Robber Bank Controlled" FXCM!

Not until after the vulture subsidiary of the Robber Banks got its foot onto the neck of FXCM did anything come out about taking any money from retail traders towards covering the margin debts of retail traders. This is being caused by the Robber Banks, which we know are corrupt thieves. They look at it this way.....

They have already taken the money! Now, they will use this "other people's money" to make more money for themselves. Their attorneys - on retainer - will drag out any litigation for a very long time - perhaps years - while the thieving Robber Banks continue to use the money. If, in the end, the Robber Banks must give back the money, or any part of it, they will already have made so much from that money, they will be able to make any disbursement required by a court decision,.....and still have more than they started with!

This is how these thieving Robber Banks work. Have no doubt about it. This is not the work of the old FXCM. This is the work of the new "bank controlled" FXCM, now operating under control of the vulture financing subsidiary of the Robber Banks themselves!
  • #364
  • Jan 23, 2015 3:08pm Jan 23, 2015 3:08pm
Quoting traderathome
{quote} FXCM is a New "Robber Bank Controlled" FXCM! Not until after the vulture subsidiary of the Robber Banks got its foot onto the neck of FXCM did anything come out about taking any money from retail traders towards covering the margin debts of retail traders. This is being caused by the Robber Banks, which we know are corrupt thieves. They look at it this way..... They have already taken the money! Now, they will use this "other people's money" to make more money for themselves. Their attorneys - on retainer - will drag out any litigation for...
TAH...was your FF account hacked by forexia?

Or is this your standard posting practice when not attached to a chart?

Robber controlled banks...
Money Can't Buy Happiness. Poverty Can't Buy SHIT! You Choose!
  • #365
  • Jan 23, 2015 4:12pm Jan 23, 2015 4:12pm
Quoting LarryDarrell
{quote} I don't know. They can sell their claims to some 'russian' incasso service for 20 cent the dollar. Wouldn't get them all the money they're owed, but the people with negative account won't have a grand old time either. I for one would apply to take over their german claims, would be a nice hobby to persue while trading the daily charts...
LOL it won't be as easy and fun as you think. There is a lot of skills, research and planning involved with collecting bad debts just like everything else. Imagine you go to this house to collect the negative balance, and somebody like Jon Jones shows up answering the door and he's the guy that you have to collect the balance from. LOL

That's the problem nowadays. Because there is no much competition, you can't do anything just as a hobby unless you are OK with not making any money.
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #366
  • Jan 23, 2015 8:00pm Jan 23, 2015 8:00pm
Quoting Kjyzai
Not with FXCM. It is FXCM's policy to credit accounts to a zero balance when debit balances occur as a result of trading. One of the greatest concerns traders have about leverage is that a sizable loss could result in owing money to their broker. At FXCM, your maximum risk of loss is limited by the amount in your account. All accounts are tracked by our "Margin Watcher" feature. With the Margin Watcher feature, if account equity falls below margin requirements, the FXCM Trading Station will trigger an order to close all open positions. Why FXCM...
Their stock fall from $18 to $2.23, I don't know how Fxcm could survive this.
  • #367
  • Jan 24, 2015 3:46am Jan 24, 2015 3:46am
Quoting Forexia
{quote} LOL it won't be as easy and fun as you think. There is a lot of skills, research and planning involved with collecting bad debts just like everything else. Imagine you go to this house to collect the negative balance, and somebody like Jon Jones shows up answering the door and he's the guy that you have to collect the balance from. LOL That's the problem nowadays. Because there is no much competition, you can't do anything just as a hobby unless you are OK with not making any money.
Never said it would be fun or easy. I actually did this as part of a former job, although not in the leg-breaker-class. There are standardized processes (at least in my country, and would think in all countries of the EU or North America), and once you get a title you've got the bailif to do the tough part of the work.
I'm not posting this to make fun of people. But I'm convinced it's better for our colleagues with negative balances to not discount the possibility that somebody will pursue these, and it won't be over within a year or two. Once somebody bought the claims from your broker as part of his businessplan, he will try to make good on the claim.
Sure, it's possible to delay and dodge and fight. But that's VERY uncomfortable. The best chance is fight the broker for bad processes, bad faith, whatever. But once they sold the claim to somebody else... Think about it like a trade: would you buy the claim of 100,000 USD against a retailtrader for 5,000, or 10,000? Wouldn't you think you could make his life hell so that he at least pays you 20,000, or more? Good R:R, if you ask me.

Quoting Magix
The further the broker/collection agent is away from home soil, the harder it will be. What are they gunna do? Keep phoning? Spam your email box? Ninja Please! Running a shake down as a hobby does actually sound intriguing, but anybody that'd buy these accounts for a penny to dollar is gunna lose money.
I agree, nightmare to do that from the US for clients in Europe, or Africa. But there are actually a lot of vultures out there who would bid for the claims and try their luck. To be clear: I won't do it, and it was a bit careless to write about doing that 'as a hobby'. I'm sorry if that sounded blasé. But after seeing a lot of naivity in these threads (people weren't even aware of the risk of negative balances, were convicenced of the swissy trade as a sure thing, etc. Look at the Alpari-thread: 'Let's e-mail spam the special administrators into submission...'), I would like to provide a little reality check.
Fail better.
  • #368
  • Jan 24, 2015 8:21am Jan 24, 2015 8:21am
Quoting LarryDarrell
I agree, nightmare to do that from the US for clients in Europe, or Africa. But there are actually a lot of vultures out there who would bid for the claims and try their luck. To be clear: I won't do it, and it was a bit careless to write about doing that 'as a hobby'. I'm sorry if that sounded blasé. But after seeing a lot of naivety in these threads (people weren't even aware of the risk of negative balances, were convicenced of the swissy trade as a sure thing, etc. Look at the Alpari-thread: 'Let's e-mail spam the special administrators...

Actually, I think the naivety is exactly what some of these will be targeting.

FXCM with it's statement "Requesting" those with a negative balance to make arrangements to come good on their accounts is nothing more than a financial game of chicken.

It's been over a week since the shit hit the fan and they have released little more for either direction of letting accounts die the horrible deaths they have and absorbing the losses and conversely in forcing the hands of others by going into a legal bout or sending out the leg breakers.

Really, all they could be hoping for is that there will be enough suckers out there paying them back, that they either won't have to force the legal hands or try more acts of desperation collecting.

Force majeure...

Seriously?

If they had a leg to stand on, they surely wouldn't be pulling out the weakest fucking clause in their agreement and "Request" others pay...but then again, with the supposed 2000 new suckers hitting the market on a daily base, they probably do stand a chance at recovering a few shekkles from the weak.
Money Can't Buy Happiness. Poverty Can't Buy SHIT! You Choose!
  • #369
  • Jan 24, 2015 9:04am Jan 24, 2015 9:04am
Excuse me guys but,
Don't tell me any broker actually passes any real order when you place an order. They bet that you'll just blow your account eventually, all they need to do is wait.
So if no real order was actually passed, no real loss could have been incurred by retail traders. The proof is that some other brokers "forgive" the negative balance. Do you think they would forgive anything if they had actually lost anything?
Already saying the there no "liquidity" to trigger stop losses is a big joke, since it's basically just a video game.
Isn't this whole thing completely crazy? What losses are we talking about here?
  • #370
  • Jan 24, 2015 9:18am Jan 24, 2015 9:18am
Quoting alt11
Excuse me guys but, Don't tell me any broker actually passes any real order when you place an order. They bet that you'll just blow your account eventually, all they need to do is wait. So if no real order was actually passed, no real loss could have been incurred by retail traders. The proof is that some other brokers "forgive" the negative balance. Do you think they would forgive anything if they had actually lost anything? Already saying the there no "liquidity" to trigger stop losses is a big joke, since it's basically just a video game. Isn't...
You need to read up on the different kind of brokers. Some take the opposite side of your trade. Others bundle your order with orders and try and pass it onto the market.
  • #371
  • Jan 24, 2015 9:20am Jan 24, 2015 9:20am
Quoting verv
{quote} Some take the opposite side of your trade.
Really? What does that mean exactly? In practice?
  • #372
  • Jan 24, 2015 9:35am Jan 24, 2015 9:35am
Quoting alt11
{quote} Really? What does that mean exactly? In practice?
Just means that when you buy, they are selling to you, and vice versa. Since most traders lose, they are happy enough to do that. This is what market maker dealers do.

The ECN guys bundle your order together and pass them on, they hedge all their trades as far as I know - but I don't know the inns and outs of this process.

I know more about Market makers than ECN's though
  • #373
  • Jan 24, 2015 9:42am Jan 24, 2015 9:42am
Quoting Magix
Actually, I think the naivety is exactly what some of these will be targeting.
Hi mate,
ofc. I think you must be incredibly bored while still hanging around these crying forums. Think it started somewhere with internet stuff - quantity over quality. It is very old business model and nothing we can do about it. Easier to get in lots of friggin noobs than to attract pro investors. Lots of idiots = lots of cash. I dont see anything unusual here. Nothing special happened, single broker collapsed (Dont count Alpari noobs) got aquisition, problem solved. So, move on and buy FXCM stocks.
T
"I know one thing, that I know nothing." Sokrates
  • #374
  • Jan 24, 2015 9:59am Jan 24, 2015 9:59am
Quoting Tom_D_Trader
{quote} Hi mate, ofc. I think you must be incredibly bored while still hanging around these crying forums. Think it started somewhere with internet stuff - quantity over quality. It is very old business model and nothing we can do about it. Easier to get in lots of friggin noobs than to attract pro investors. Lots of idiots = lots of cash. I dont see anything unusual here. Nothing special happened, single broker collapsed (Dont count Alpari noobs) got aquisition, problem solved. So, move on and buy FXCM stocks. T
This is yet another post you talk people into buying FXCM shares. Do you have any interest in the company? How much have you lost, trading their shares?
  • #375
  • Jan 24, 2015 10:07am Jan 24, 2015 10:07am
Quoting Tom_D_Trader
Easier to get in lots of friggin noobs than to attract pro investors.
This is the business model that is carried out by a lot of brokers, and by brokers, I mean bucket shops...

Check out Exness as an example.

Max 2000:1...and when the peg was pulled, these motherfuckers had a party!!

Do you see any threads on the bucket shops running collection scams on their clients?

NO.

The numbers don't lie and in all seriousness, any broker hoping to just prosper off of spread and passing along the trades has seriously missed the idea of profitability.

The vast majority of traders lose. BIG.

These are the people that feed the Walmart Brokers like Exness...Huge fucking turnover...but the people that trade with these guys, know full well that they lost their accounts on error, not by the broker bending them over. And, if for some reason, somebody escapes the loss, and makes a profit and goes for a withdrawal...this is just the cost of doing business.

They house the trades.
Keep the spreads low.
Keep the market as fair as possible...

And guess what?

While Serious Traders work with Serious Brokers who are ECN's are now in fear of losing everything they have, are hoping that they can withdraw funds from their current broker, have taken a shit kicking on investing into the stocks supporting their broker...

Joe Noob Public has dropped another $500 into his Walmart broker account after shorting the Swissy the week before, probably already lost half of it last week, but is happy to not suffer from what these rest of these suckers do...

Gotta love it!
Money Can't Buy Happiness. Poverty Can't Buy SHIT! You Choose!
  • #376
  • Edited 10:30am Jan 24, 2015 10:11am | Edited 10:30am
Quoting verv
{quote} Just means that when you buy, they are selling to you, and vice versa.
They buy what? Where? Do they pick up the phone and go "hey buy 1 lot for this guy and sell another for me"?
I don't think so. I think they just keep track of your orders.
If you lose on a trade, the money goes straight from your account to theirs.
If you win, then nothing really happens. They only need to pay out if you want to withdraw or close a winning account, which is statistically rare.
That's why I think that with so-called market makers, it's just a video game.

That's why I think all the so-called losses of retail traders on the SNB move are only virtual, there was never any money.
Would a broker "forgive" negative balance like Oanda has if there was any real money involved? Of course not.
But instead of just taking all the money on their account, some brokers are even going for the negative balance.
Crazy stuff
  • #377
  • Jan 24, 2015 10:34am Jan 24, 2015 10:34am
Quoting Magix
This is the business model that is carried out by a lot of brokers, and by brokers, I mean bucket shops... Check out Exness as an example. Max 2000:1...and when the peg was pulled, these motherfuckers had a party!!
I know mate, thats why I wrote what I did. Actually bucket shops and generally these "financial advisors" used to pretty often contact me to work for em, and were one of the reasons I became such an offline guy. I was simply tired of everyone here talking about such a simple thing as insolvency of a single company. It is not even full insolvency, they found out a loan shark. Case closed.

Quoting Magix
And guess what? While Serious Traders work with Serious Brokers who are ECN's are now in fear of losing everything they have, are hoping that they can withdraw funds from their current broker, have taken a shit kicking on investing into the stocks supporting their broker
I just dont understand this mate. What shit kicking? Normal investment
"I know one thing, that I know nothing." Sokrates
  • #378
  • Jan 24, 2015 10:37am Jan 24, 2015 10:37am
Quoting xy76
This is yet another post you talk people into buying FXCM shares. Do you have any interest in the company? How much have you lost, trading their shares?
Wtf do you care bout my account? Am not talking people but my mates. I dont give a damn about you sorry. If you invest coz you read in on FF, burn.
"I know one thing, that I know nothing." Sokrates
  • #379
  • Jan 24, 2015 10:41am Jan 24, 2015 10:41am
Quoting alt11
{quote} They buy what? Where? Do they pick up the phone and go "hey buy 1 lot for this guy and sell another for me"? I don't think so. I think they just keep track of your orders. If you lose on a trade, the money goes straight from your account to theirs. If you win, then nothing really happens. They only need to pay out if you want to withdraw or close a winning account, which is statistically rare. That's why I think that with so-called market makers, it's just a video game. That's why I think all the so-called losses of retail traders on the...
Ffs there are different types of brokers.

The ECN models brokers package your orders together with other traders and send it off to the market. They could not get quotess from their liquidity providers and could not get your or themselves into and out of the trades which is why everyone with an ecn broker lost so much. My broker was ecn, it is bankrupt and going through administration because it could not access liquidity.

More on ECNs here: http://www.fxempire.com/education/st...x-system-work/


The market makers buy and sell to you from their own book, as you describe. Im fed up telling people on this forum about what market maker models do, some of you guys just make chit up....

More on market makers here http://www.forexfactory.com/showthre...11#post8020611
  • #380
  • Edited 11:11am Jan 24, 2015 10:49am | Edited 11:11am
Quoting Tom_D_Trader
What shit kicking? Normal investment
BAGHOLDING!

The smart investor...

Hedged his bets. Invests capital into his broker and trades his account.

In the event of a loss on forex, he counts on the hedged investment in his stock account to cover losses.

Brilliant!

Until January 15, 2015...

Takes a safe ride based on the Swissy losing money for 3 consecutive years, buys the peg level, pats himself on the back figuring that both he and his broker are going to make money on this trade. Profits from the trade in his account, stock prices are going to go up...this is going to be the beginning of a fantastic year!

KA-FUCKING-BLAM!



The seconds that it takes for him to see his account go from a tidy little trading account into the turmoil of deficit, is mind boggling. Something like this has not only never happened in these markets, but has never even really been conceptualized. The trade is now so ugly that if you seen it in a dark alley, you would attempt to beat it to death the the closest heavy object.

Fortunately, the big fat red number in his account will be absorbed by his loving broker who carries the promise of no collecting on negative balances, and even though he took a hit on his trade, lost his account and is feeling a little less positive about the year...he at least still has money invested in his broker, who will surely have profited off of the dynamics of range given the number of customers across the board.

FUCK!

WRONG AGAIN!!!

The beat down is even uglier.

His stock account is now worth 1/10th of what it was, his forex account isn't going back to zero and know he gets an email from his broker saying they need more money!

Market Trifecta!
Money Can't Buy Happiness. Poverty Can't Buy SHIT! You Choose!
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