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Brokers with Negative Balance Protection 41 replies

Brokers that liquidate accounts at zero before negative balance occurs 22 replies

When would chasing a trade be worth it to you? 17 replies

What brokers would you want to use if you had 100k + million + account? 6 replies

Can someone answer question about Brokers chasing stops? 7 replies

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Brokers chasing you for negative account balance

  • #181
  • Quote
  • Jan 20, 2015 3:57pm Jan 20, 2015 3:57pm
Quoting william17
{quote} To sell the debt to collection agency, fxcm will need to win their case in court. If somebody owes you money, you first talk to that person and try to figure things out. If you don't get what you claim is yours you then proceed to court. And only if you win the case you call the collection agencies and try to cut a deal with them to buy the debt from you. FXCM can claim that traders owe them money but if people dispute that and refuse to pay, the next step will be court, not collection agency people knocking on traders' doors.
I am talking about Alpari UK. FXCM will not collect negative balances. The admistrator of Alpari already said that negative balances will have to be paid.
  • #182
  • Quote
  • Jan 20, 2015 4:07pm Jan 20, 2015 4:07pm
Quoting shrike
{quote} I am talking about Alpari UK. FXCM will not collect negative balances. The admistrator of Alpari already said that negative balances will have to be paid.
Sorry mate, got things mixed up
  • #183
  • Quote
  • Jan 20, 2015 4:29pm Jan 20, 2015 4:29pm
this is what the main shareholder said about the company

In my view, the orderly winding up was better than a financial meltdown with unpredictable consequences. Unfortunately, it now transpires that I should have filed for winding up earlier: probably in that case that process would have been completed before the “black Thursday” of 15 January 2015, when the unpreparedness of Alpari UK and its lack of any financial buffer caused its collapse and insolvency. -

See more at: http://forexmagnates.com/exclusive-a....zXovHGf0.dpuf

so they admit that they were not able to close the position with the margin call , , how can they try to be right in front of a court and want some money back ?
  • #184
  • Quote
  • Jan 20, 2015 5:02pm Jan 20, 2015 5:02pm
Quoting r41225
{quote} You don't understand, you're trying to kill the goose that lays golden eggs in the hopes that you'd get all the eggs at once! Retail forex needs banks more than they need it! It's their game, we get to play it, if you try to use force against them, they can easily take their toys & go home.
No I am NOT trying to kill the goose I am just trying to think of ways to make it lay its eggs more properly. The goose doesn't want to lay eggs anymore that's not my problem. And it's certainly not because of us wanting to put regulations on them for a change. The goose never wanted to lay those golden eggs in the first place.

Quoting r41225
{quote} Banks are in it because it's profitable for them, if it ceases to be profitable for them then they can easily go back to trading amongst themselves as they used to. Let me ask you, would you take a trade knowing that you're very likely to make a huge loss on it? I hope not. So why do you expect banks & LPs to do that? We trade when we think we can make money & so do LPs!
LOL Really huge loss from the retail trading side? We are fodders for them. This is an excerpt of a post that I read on the FF forum.

Quoting spaceduck
{quote} When you talk about the majority of retail and the SNB, i guess the SNB (like the LP) don't really care about what retail traders are doing, even with all the leverage the whole retail industry is just a tiny very tiny part of the market (some say 4%), so my thought is that nor Snb nor Liquidity providers really cared about which the retail side was.
So if our trading volume, with leverage added only amounts to 4% of the entire market, WHERE is this "huge loss" coming from? LOL Deutsche Bank supposedly lost $150 million USD in this SNB event, you know how much is Deutsche's total asset as of 2013? $1.8 TRILLION USD!!! That loss is 150,000,000/1,800,000,000,000 = 8.33333E-05 That loss number is so small with so many zeros before the "8", Excel couldn't even display it!! LOL You think they give a crap about that little loss??!! LOL It's not even worth their pocket change! LOL But that loss is lot more significant for us, Interactive Brokers lost $120 million and their total asset is only $37.87 Billion. If they continued to make markets after the SNB announcement, majority of the brokers' loss and our loss would've been borne more by them. And according to this article, http://forexmagnates.com/foreign-exc...surpass-1-bln/, the total loss of the forex industry after this SNB event would surpass $1Billion. That is still 1,000,000,000 / 1,800,000,000,000 = 0.000555556 = 0.055556% of total assets. And this is just ONE bank!! Deutsche Bank is only the SECOND largest liquidity "provider" and it's more than enough to absorb an ENTIRE forex industry's losses that includes the losses from the retail AND institutional side like the hedge funds and other liquidity "providers"! You think they care about regulations to make them continue to make market during all time when they are supposed to? LOL They are just threatening to block us out because they probably don't want to set a precedence that might really impact them later or they just want a free rein to play. I am just trying to make them to do something that they are well capable of doing but makes a big difference to us, and all of you retail traders (if you are not trolls) are all scared s***less begging "Oh please, we don't mind getting screwed over again and again, please please let us stay and play with you." LOL

Quoting r41225
{quote}As far as the wrong quotes go, I believe brokers have agreements with their LPs so I'm sure brokers will deal with it, if LPs failed to meet the terms of the agreement. But YOUR agreement is with your broker, not with LPs so LPs aren't in any way obligated to you.
If you are not an ignorant troll who's just here to post for attention, then you are a very naive noob in retail trading. You think our brokers would continue to get requotes and slippages from their banks and not pass onto us or already have?? They need to survive and make a profit too! They have those "minimum net capital requirement" that they have to keep up with CFTC/NFA. How long do you think our brokers would be able to keep up being squeezed at both ends? On one side, they have to promise us no requotes, positive slippages, honouring all of our stop-losses and tp orders and stop-hunt us and hedge our positions so not to trade against us, but on the other side, they are getting screwed over by their banks, those liquidity "providers"? What's good of us if one day our brokers go under because they can't make money anymore? What are we going to do? We are gonna have to REALLY go against the liquidity "providers" ourselves directly who operate in a pure bucket shop MM model that uses every single trick in the book that MM brokers use against us with what? With our 5K account balances? Because there is no brokers there to lend to us the leverage. You think the "Big Boys" would be willing to play with us with our 5K account balances? LOL By that time, retail forex is gonna be dead anyway. Without the brokers there, there is NO retail forex. The brokers, the reputable ones that is, are really and the pillar stones of the entire retail forex industry. They are the ones who lent us the money, the means for us to play against the "Big Bank Bullies" and they are the ones who provide us the means, the electronic platforms and servers, the tools for us to trade. The retail forex industry has evolved and changed dramatically over the last 10 years, the brokers are no longer our enemies anymore like 10 years ago; they have actually become our partners. This is what I have learnt from this SNB event. We have evolved and stepped up to the next level and our "enemies" are now the liquidity "providers" that are trading against us AND the brokers.

Quoting r41225
{quote}As far as regulations go, there's FIFO, leverage reduced to 50:1, cards not acceptable anymore & so on, haven't you had enough already? When will you learn? When retail forex is killed? Regulations are NOT the answer, when will you get it? As much as you're intent on (unknowingly, I hope) killing the retail forex with regulations, if you expend that much effort in revisiting the reasons why you should NOT have been long on EURCHF then you'd be a significantly better trader.
LOL Either way, regulations or no regulations against the liquidity "providers", the forex industry is going to be dead, the way it is going right now. Without regulations against liquidity "providers", the forex industry is going to just be chocked off to death slowly with all the regulations tying us retail traders' hands behind our back while letting the "big banks" do whatever they want with us meanwhile siphoning off pips by pips from us. With regulations against the "Big Banks", the retail forex industry MIGHT have a chance.
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #185
  • Quote
  • Jan 20, 2015 5:20pm Jan 20, 2015 5:20pm
Quoting Forexia
So if our trading volume, with leverage added only amounts to 4% of the entire market,

Either way, regulations or no regulations against the liquidity "providers", the forex industry is going to be dead, the way it is going right now. Without regulations against liquidity "providers", the forex industry is going to just be chocked off to death slowly with all the regulations tying us retail traders' hands behind our back while letting the "big banks" do whatever they want with us meanwhile siphoning off pips by pips from us. With...
Let's sum this up...

Retail = 4%.

Nobody else gives a shit.

Business as usual....
Money Can't Buy Happiness. Poverty Can't Buy SHIT! You Choose!
  • #186
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  • Jan 20, 2015 5:34pm Jan 20, 2015 5:34pm
That was my point, the losses from this snb event are really minimal, seems like mostly only the retail traders have lost, and retail brokers too as a result.
Again, retail fx brokers are not really important in the forex market, we are just small speculators that don't have any relevant effect on the market, let's just say that if the retail industry would completly fall down, like if fx trading would be declared illegal worldwide (this is just an example), the fx market would continue to work exactly like before, nothing would change.

So the point here is, nobody really care about fx retail trading, only we retail traders care about it (of course that's how we make a living, i like this job).

And of course forget about this idea of regulating the LP, the LP that we like soo much to talk about are actually the 5 banks that control 80% of the whole fx market (a market of around 10 trillion dollars daily), they are somehow a kind of powerful institutions, they are one step above every governments of the world, i don't know if you know it, but the politicians are really puppets of these big banks, the whole situation is very different from how somebody may think.

I don't think nothing will ever happen from this eurchf stuff, it really is nothing spectacular.

The snb did something like that (move the value of the swiss franc) also 3 years ago, and if you look back in history there are many of these events, the usd pegged to the dollar, the gbp peg (that one that was broken by soros), another snb peg (don't remember how many years ago, i was not trading yet at that time), the hkd pegged to the gbp (1935), pegged to the usd (1939), the yen pegged with the dollar (1941), etc.

If you look the history of each and every currency you will see that the central banks at one point or another pegged them to a certain level vs other currencies or vs gold, peg here, remove the peg there, everytime one of these policies are changed by central banks the value of currencies move drastically in just one big step, forget about liquidity providers.
Liquidity providers are here to provide liquidity on a free market, the forex market is NOT a free speculative market, we buy and sell currencies issued by their corresponding central banks, and if one day one of them decide to change the value of her currency, she do it.

I think you should consider the idea of trade the stock market, the stock market is really a free speculative market, or you can trade the gold market or the oil market or the bond markets or whatever (there are soo many markets), where there is nobody that can empirically decide the value of an asset and make what the snb did last week with her own currency.

In fact, if you want a non-manipulated market, the fx market is the wrongest choice you can make.
From the value of currencies depends the economies of entire countries, of billions of people, and every currency is issued by her own central bank that can and do intervene from time to time not caring about speculators or liquidity or whatsoever.

And this is a fact, we can either accept it or trade other markets (that is not a bad idea).
  • #187
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  • Jan 20, 2015 6:24pm Jan 20, 2015 6:24pm
Quoting Germanforex
Let me jump into the discussion with a news from Swissquote. Bank representatives are calling customers asking to clear their debit balances under the threat of a legal action (first hand experience...stop loss on EURCHF did not work and my account went negative) Last week Swissquote booked 25 millions francs as provision (loss) http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0UV0DP20150116 Jan 16 (Reuters) - Online broker Swissquote said on Friday it would book a provision of 25 million Swiss francs ($24.5 million)...
I am facing the same problem.. Representatives called me to clear a huge amount to cover the negative balance. Margin call and stop-out did not work. And this is what they state on their website:

"Our no maintenance margin policy means that our clients can go below the margin requirements during the week without Swissquote closing their positions. Throughout the week your positions can fluctuate without Swissquote taking action. We only require you to respect the margin requirements before 23:00 CET (22:00 UK time) every evening. This no maintenance margin policy means that we do not give margin calls and we do not automatically close your positions if you go below the margin requirements of your positions. However, if you approach the level where the loss of your open positions approaches the balance of your account, you will be stopped out and your positions will be closed. The stop out will be executed when there is only around 2% equity of the required margin left in the account.
We believe that our no maintenance margin policy gives more flexibility to the clients, as they can decide for themselves when they want a position to be closed. Occasionally, if the market price is going against you, many of our competitors would close the position if it goes below the required margin - even if the price bounces back the next moment. We give the client complete control over their positions. "

I DID NOT HAVE ANY CONTROL, BECAUSE THEY DID NOT HAD FOR THEMSELVES

"Margin level is a reflection of one's available margin determined by the ratio of one's total exposure, open profit or loss and equity on a trading account. If a client were trading with 100:1 leverage, he/she must maintain a margin level above 1%. Should this level fall below the 1% threshold, all open positions and orders will be closed automatically."

ORDERS HAVE NOT BEEN CLOSED AUTOMATICALLY...

Other brokers like Dukascopy, Oanda, FXCM, Hotforex (HF Markets) and many others understood the problem, and acted with responsability.

So do you think SWISSQUOTE is a good and responsible broker???
  • #188
  • Quote
  • Edited 9:07pm Jan 20, 2015 6:57pm | Edited 9:07pm
Quoting spaceduck
{quote} That was my point, the losses from this snb event are really minimal, seems like mostly only the retail traders have lost, and retail brokers too as a result. Again, retail fx brokers are not really important in the forex market, we are just small speculators that don't have any relevant effect on the market, let's just say that if the retail industry would completly fall down, like if fx trading would be declared illegal worldwide (this is just an example), the fx market would continue to work exactly like before, nothing would change....
I know so maybe a better way than regulations is to diversify the pool of LP's. It's not right that the entire market is controlled within just a few LP's, the same flashy logos that you see on every single brokers' webpage when they boast about their "deep liquidity". They can do whatever s*** they want cuz there is no others just like the few bucket shop MM brokers that dominated the retail fx market back 10 years ago, they did EXACTLY the same s*** that these LP's are doing to us, last-look requoting, slippages, stopping quotes just not to hit your order and etc. The only reasons why less and less brokers, even MM brokers are doing this s*** to us is because of competitions. More and more brokers come in the arena and there are more choices for traders and traders don't really need to stick with those dishonest MM brokers anymore because there are others that offer more fairer in their dealings.

So maybe this is what should happen with the LP level. More and more banks should be encouraged to join in to offer liquidity so the forex market liquidity is not controlled in the hands of the 80%. Brokers would have more choices when they are shopping for liquidity brokers.

Quoting spaceduck
{quote}I think you should consider the idea of trade the stock market, the stock market is really a free speculative market, or you can trade the gold market or the oil market or the bond markets or whatever (there are soo many markets), where there is nobody that can empirically decide the value of an asset and make what the snb did last week with her own currency. In fact, if you want a non-manipulated market, the fx market is the wrongest choice you can make. From the value of currencies depends the economies of entire countries, of billions...
I actually started my trading career (well actually started first in currency trading, got burned and lost $1K in one day with FXCM and closed my account right away) in stock markets. 1) Less volume and volatility 2) Limited trading hours and 3) Cannot short all stocks 4) Just as much manipulations with those earnings report, breaking news... I am looking into commodities market like gold after this SNB event, but my main concern is spread. I enjoy the spread of 0 pip right now with E/U in currency market and the spread is 2pips+ and even higher with gold.

Actually I have no problems with the manipulations of currency values because face it no matter which instrument that I trade, there is ALWAYS going to be a bit of manipulations cuz that's one of the force that moves the market. BUT what I don't want is one group of players having unfair advantage over me that I have no way of overcoming and they can use that unfair advantage against me with no restraints. I am supposed to be trading against the "best and the brightest" in the industry not somebody who cheat just because they have more money.
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #189
  • Quote
  • Edited 7:12pm Jan 20, 2015 7:01pm | Edited 7:12pm
I'm not going to get much likes for this post.

But the people who didn't act responsibly where those who leveraged their account to such a degree that they wiped not only themselves out but potentially lost other people money as well.

Thanks to the 94% of traders on my broker who were long on eurchf, my broker is now bankrupt.

Thanks to all those who didn't consider that once the floor broke there wouldn't be a buying anywhere near the 1.2 peg, yet you guys expected to be able to get out with pin sharp accuracy.

Thanks to those guys not paying back their negative bank balances, because now I don't if, how much, or when I am likely to get my money back from my bankrupt broker.

All you guys scrambling to blame the brokers or the liquidity providers need to have a look at yourselves first and foremost. There is no doubt the brokers, and the tier one banks messed up. But no one forced you guys personally to be long with such high leverage.

I'm sorry that so many of your lost money, I truly am. But your actions could potentially have lost me money as well.

I guess I must take responsibility too, for not seeing the inevitable consequences of a floor slippage and the effect it would have on the ability of ECN brokers to function.
  • #190
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  • Jan 20, 2015 7:12pm Jan 20, 2015 7:12pm
Somethings not right with what is going on. Broker software trading platforms didn't honor traders stops or account margin call levels built into the platform to protect the account, yet the retail traders are being asked to pay back the negative balance (by some unethical brokers) even though it was caused by the system failing and through no fault of the trader.

Brokers who chase retail clients for negative balances need to be boycoted by the retail trader community. Something should be setup to warn traders not to use these companies in future and to name and shame them for their unethical and unfair behavior.

Trading is a difficult and stressful past time in and of itself. You put on stops so you can sleep at night. If now suddenly it is the norm where if the system software fails to work as it was designed, and the trader is left to foot the bill, then retail trading is not a viable way to make an income, certainly not a safe way. In this way the system is rigged in the brokers favor. Who in their right mind would want to trade with such a broker.

$1000 dollar account, go to bed, wake up next morning -$19,000. Sorry our system didn't save your account even though you put stops on all your trades, even though there's a built-in Account Stop Out Level set by the broker on MT4 and MT5 platforms, you owe us $19,000

What's wrong with this picture!!!
  • #191
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  • Jan 20, 2015 8:32pm Jan 20, 2015 8:32pm
Quoting grin
Forexia, do you accept extra gains when price gaps beyond your limit order?
Uncomfortable to admit that there would be no fuss about taking extra gains from a liquidity gap?
  • #192
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  • Jan 20, 2015 8:41pm Jan 20, 2015 8:41pm
Quoting maxvre
Somethings not right with what is going on. Broker software trading platforms didn't honor traders stops or account margin call levels built into the platform to protect the account
For gods sake! Opening is a trade, closing is a trade, even force close by SL or hitting margin call level. Try sell an apple, you can only do that if someone wants an apple. No one was willing to take the other side - no one wanted to get an apple because prices of apples were dropping massively at that moment. Little bit later they got 2 apples for the price of one (well, more or less).

@verv:
at least you got my like for that post.
Well, I found a new broker as a transitional solution, will fund it on Thursday. I'm going to miss the alpari MT5 execution speed. Will probably changing to LMAX or dukas later that year (new platform, ugh!).
  • #193
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  • Jan 20, 2015 8:52pm Jan 20, 2015 8:52pm
Quoting Forexia
{quote} Well that's the regulators' problem that doesn't mean that we shouldn't do something to enforce fair dealing by the liquidity "providers". They didn't just abandon the market during the SNB crisis, there were lot more other even shadier practices that they engaged in that bucket shop market maker brokers have engaged in but are no longer engaging in like last-look re-quoting(mind you many brokers like Oanda maintained firm quotes during the whole SNB event even though they received requoting from those liquidity "providers"), unfair slippages,...

Forexia, are you a kind of person who is unable to admit his/her mistakes? Always looking for someone else to blame? If so, this is perhaps an opportunity for you to grow up? And please, do not make another, even bigger one. Retail forex does not need more regulation. Your rants can bring some, effectively killing the market. Please, do not bring this disaster upon us.
I feel truly sorry for your losses, but the responsibility for your actions is, ultimately, yours.
  • #194
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  • Jan 20, 2015 8:53pm Jan 20, 2015 8:53pm
Quoting grin
Forexia, do you accept extra gains when price gaps beyond your limit order?
Of course I accept the extra gains from the positive slippages beyond my TP price that was created by liquidity "providers" stopping liquidity, what kind of stupid question is that. If they expect me to accept the -ve negative slippages beyond my stop-loss level then they should expect me to accept the positive slippage. If they are willing to forgive negative balances beyond my stop-loss then yeah I can see the merit of not wanting to honour the positive slippage.

There.
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #195
  • Quote
  • Jan 20, 2015 8:55pm Jan 20, 2015 8:55pm
Quoting xy76
{quote} Retail forex does not need more regulation.
Yes it does, regulations against liquidity "providers"!
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #196
  • Quote
  • Jan 20, 2015 8:56pm Jan 20, 2015 8:56pm
Quoting grin
{quote} Uncomfortable to admit that there would be no fuss about taking extra gains from a liquidity gap?
Uncomfortable to admit that there is no fuss about taking extra losses from an artificially created liquidity gap?
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #197
  • Quote
  • Jan 20, 2015 8:58pm Jan 20, 2015 8:58pm
Quoting Forexia
{quote} Yes it does, regulations against liquidity "providers"!
So what, are you going to force them to enter a trade at the price that suits you, not the counterpart? A unilaterally enforced contract of some sorts?
Have you ever heard of a free market concept?
  • #198
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  • Jan 20, 2015 9:01pm Jan 20, 2015 9:01pm
Quoting maxvre
Brokers who chase retail clients for negative balances need to be boycoted by the retail trader community. Something should be setup to warn traders not to use these companies in future and to name and shame them for their unethical and unfair behavior. $1000 dollar account, go to bed, wake up next morning -$19,000. Sorry our system didn't save your account even though you put stops on all your trades, even though there's a built-in Account Stop Out Level set by the broker on MT4 and MT5 platforms, you owe us $19,000 What's wrong with this picture!!!...
They don't have a choice because their "prime banks" the liquidity "providers", like Deutsche Bank who has $1.8 TRILLION USD in assets is chasing down these brokers' a$$ for those negative balances. And it's NOT because the brokers didn't honour the stop-out levels because they couldn't due requoting again from their ultimate bucket shop liquidity "providers".

Institutional traders and buyside members have seen an influx in banks using last look practises to overpower their clients. One trader who commented on the basis of anonymity said to Forex Magnates: “Quite simply Banks are having the biggest last look ever, typical of the market today, they enter a risk market and when it goes against them they fail to honour the trades.”

http://forexmagnates.com/banks-face-...mln-bloomberg/
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #199
  • Quote
  • Jan 20, 2015 9:02pm Jan 20, 2015 9:02pm
few points:
1) "So maybe this is what should happen with the LP level. More and more banks should be encouraged to join in to offer liquidity so the forex market liquidity is not controlled in the hands of the 80%. Brokers would have more choices when they are shopping for liquidity brokers."
But is it not true that every player is a liquidity provider? What i mean is in a OTC or a exchange some instruments are so popular that there are enough buyers and sellers present so one does even need special liquidity providers or designated market makers?
SO it would be interesting to see what % of trades are actually settled just between retail players so LP's has no role!

2) Leverage: how can people complain about Negative balance when one hand they want huge leverage like 100:1 or worst 200;1
It is a double edged sword how can you complain only about one side?
Imagine for stocks you take 1:1 leverage ( in US in Aus it is 1:3) WHY DO YOU EXPECT THE BROKER WHO HAS LEND YOU THE MONEY SHOULD SUFFER? HE WANTS HIS MONEY BACK it was loan YOU ARE the one who wanted to "enhance" your returns!
Say yo long a stock with 50% borrowed money and fraud happens at the company stock tanks 80% is it the broker's fault? there will be a margin call! simple

Having said that I have a question given that Margin fx is a zero sum game does the broker actually physically lend real cash? like the equity broker does?
Take an example: Mr A goes long xyz pair notation value 100000 with his own 1000 and Mr B is the other side of trade with his 1000 so in real physical terms has the broker actually lent 2 x 99000? I don;t think so al he has done is matched the two parties made the spread and just like futures each account is marked to market every day or every second! so when somebody said brokers lends 99K is that really true?
  • #200
  • Quote
  • Jan 20, 2015 9:02pm Jan 20, 2015 9:02pm
Quoting xy76
{quote} So what, are you going to force them to enter a trade at the price that suits you, not the counterpart? A unilaterally enforced contract of some sorts? Have you ever heard of a free market concept?
No a price that suits both me and the counter-party. That's the free market concept otherwise it's called dictatorship. BUT they need to present a price quote first.
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
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