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  • #121
  • Jan 19, 2015 8:47pm Jan 19, 2015 8:47pm
Quoting Forexia
{quote} No I would not blame on the broker or the seller if I bought a property that's worthless and later on not able to sell it (although that broker would be guilty of not fulfilling his/her fiduciary duty to me and false advertising because he/she should've informed me that it's worthless but anyway that's a topic) BUT at the time when I need to sell it I WILL blame the buyer for purposefully telling all my potential buyers and brokers not to buy my property to make it unsellable just to make me desperate and then come back after a lengthy time...
Forexia ,,, while i agree there could be some truth to your accusation ,,,, the solution that you are proposing can never be done ... and if you are in loss due to this unexceptional situation .. i am sure there are many like you and hence there will be a way out ....and that is what we should try to explore .. rather

LP are liquidity providers not liquidity Creators, they serve to pool out the buyers (which could be their clients or people using their platforms ), they cannot help if there are no buyers out there in the market

Let me try to explain with the accusation

"for purposefully telling all my potential buyers and brokers not to buy my property to make it unsellable just to make me desperate"
- LP did not tell any buyers not to buy , there were simply no buyers as 1. the price was rapidly falling and no one knew the "true " value after the depegging
- nobody wanted to make you desperate

"and then come back after a lengthy time when I have cut the price to a deep discount and give me a bid price a cut even lower than my offer "
- when the price had fallen and was falling like it did perhaps it was right thing to do ( I do not know if it was system failure or wantedly it was stopped)
the "cool off" period helped in price discovery ( for almost 3 years there was none due to the pegging and market had to decide in short time)
- You could have kept your house or position had you invested your own money without any loan ( at the time of pricing , the loan amount has been consumed , so your position had to be closed)

but your suggestion to shove your buyer to buy at a certain price you wish is not realistic , because it is buyers pre-rogative just as yours to demand a price .. and a regulation on the value of your house can be passed ,, but if there are no buyers at that price ,, you will never be able to sell your property and the price may continue to go down in practical terms Vs theory (Proposed regulated valuation)
  • #122
  • Jan 19, 2015 8:48pm Jan 19, 2015 8:48pm
Quoting Magix
{quote} Actually, just went through a couple of the charts you posted and seen these words. Seriously... If you can't play and prosper by the same rules as others, you should find a game that suits your needs...not wait for a market to change to suit you.
I know the market won't change because it doesn't need to; it's the people who operate in that market who needs to and that's why I believe the regulators should step in and monitor more closely and discipline the ones who run the market. They have done enough regulating of us little guys, they should grow a pair and have the guts to stand up to the "Big Boys" to keep them in line too.
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #123
  • Jan 19, 2015 8:50pm Jan 19, 2015 8:50pm
Quoting Forexia
blah blah blah blah blah...so have fun selling our 2-bedroom bungalow and honda sedan to recover those negative balances that you helped create!! LOL
Now you are going to blame me?



I wasn't even in market last week, nor for the last month for that matter.

I don't trade during the Christmas season, never typically come back to market until after the second week of the New Year.

You are having a tough time coming to grips with this, though, huh?

Everybody else is to blame that either won or didn't lose?

Musta been some serious fucking beat down you took, huh?

Sorry bout your losses, but the sooner you let go, the sooner you can move on.
Money Can't Buy Happiness. Poverty Can't Buy SHIT! You Choose!
  • #124
  • Edited 10:07pm Jan 19, 2015 8:52pm | Edited 10:07pm
Quoting connect_ananth
{quote} Forexia ,,, while i agree there could be some truth to your accusation ,,,, the solution that you are proposing can never be done ... and if you are in loss due to this unexceptional situation .. i am sure there are many like you and hence there will be a way out ....and that is what we should try to explore .. rather LP are liquidity providers not liquidity Creators, they serve to pool out the buyers (which could be their clients or people using their platforms ), they cannot help if there are no buyers out there in the market Let me try...
If you haven't read this, you should read it now. I will post it here again:

http://forexmagnates.com/banks-bucke...nc-volatility/

This is what those liquidity "providers" did. And we are not talking about theories; we are talking about valuing the intrinsic value of a commodity properly and fair dealing. The price fell because those liquidity "providers" made it fall. And I don't believe it's true that there is no buyers. There were traders who were on the right side of the market. I don't believe it that all of their TP targets were all at the price when they resumed quoting ONE hour later. And according to the article with the link above, they did things even more sinister. Regulations is only one of the ways that we need to employ to resolve this although I agree it's not perfect because those clueless ignorant pencil-pushers is another problem all by itself. But something needs to be done to deter these kind of behaviour.
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #125
  • Jan 19, 2015 8:54pm Jan 19, 2015 8:54pm
Quoting Forexia
{quote} I know the market won't change because it doesn't need to; it's the people who operate in that market who needs to and that's why I believe the regulators should step in and monitor more closely and discipline the ones who run the market. They have done enough regulating of us little guys, they should grow a pair and have the guts to stand up to the "Big Boys" to keep them in line too.
You understand that it was a forced manipulation of market by the peg that got you into this mess to begin with, right?

Market was inflated to a price that it shouldn't have been...see where that got ya?

Governing parties have no business being in business...as a Canuck, you should know better.

Give your head a shake, man.
Money Can't Buy Happiness. Poverty Can't Buy SHIT! You Choose!
  • #126
  • Jan 19, 2015 8:56pm Jan 19, 2015 8:56pm
Quoting Magix
{quote} You understand that it was a forced manipulation of market by the peg that got you into this mess to begin with, right?
So???

Quoting Magix
{quote} Market was inflated to a price that it shouldn't have been...see where that got ya? Governing parties have no business being in business...
And???
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #127
  • Jan 19, 2015 8:56pm Jan 19, 2015 8:56pm
Quoting grin
{quote} Then he must be getting some kick from arguing about nothing. He simply has to pick another tool to get what he wants.
My guess...sleep deprivation and chain smoking...

Most likely adrenal and mental fatigue.

I'd be willing to bet a big ole dose of choline, a gagger of melotonin and a few hours of pillow time would do him a lot of good.
Money Can't Buy Happiness. Poverty Can't Buy SHIT! You Choose!
  • #128
  • Jan 19, 2015 8:58pm Jan 19, 2015 8:58pm
Quoting Magix
{quote} My guess...sleep deprivation and chain smoking... Most likely adrenal and mental fatigue. I'd be willing to bet a big ole dose of choline, a gagger of melotonin and a few hours of pillow time would do him a lot of good.
Ah we are resorting to personal attacks I see. So I take it you have no valid arguments to go against me then?
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #129
  • Jan 19, 2015 9:01pm Jan 19, 2015 9:01pm
Quoting Forexia
{quote} Ah we are resorting to personal attacks I see. So I take it you have no valid arguments to against me then?
What personal attack?

That was an opinion and a seemingly well informed one at that.

Valid argument against what?

Your incessant pissing and moaning?

What's to argue?

I'm not the enemy here dude, I just flat out don't agree with market regulation of any kind. We seen how well that worked out for the Yanks...don't wanna see it move north of the border.

Don't care if it is broker, market nor trade related.

I just flat out, don't wan't to see it.
Money Can't Buy Happiness. Poverty Can't Buy SHIT! You Choose!
  • #130
  • Jan 19, 2015 9:07pm Jan 19, 2015 9:07pm
Quoting Forexia
{quote} No I would not blame on the broker or the seller if I bought a property that's worthless and later on not able to sell it (although that broker would be guilty of not fulfilling his/her fiduciary duty to me and false advertising because he/she should've informed me that it's worthless but anyway that's a topic) BUT at the time when I need to sell it I WILL blame the buyer for purposefully telling all my potential buyers and brokers not to buy my property to make it unsellable just to make me desperate and then come back after a lengthy time...
What exactly this regulation will forbid? No liquidity provider is running around telling others what to do you can trust me on this. The broker does not buys or sells from you it only provides the channel. Other traders could buy your stop but it was unlikely there were many at that time.
Whatever your regulation is going to be, it cannot obligate anyone else to buy from you at the price you want. The whole purpose of market is that the buyer and seller agree on the price, at that particular time buyers did not want it. It was falling in price until SNB stepped in and provided enough bids to stop it and persuade banks to return to the market. What is illegal in this?
I will try to explain one more time. Your complain regarding your EURCHF position exit can be divided into 2 problems:
1. Your stop was not executed.
2. There was no liquidity.

Your stop is not guaranteed to be executed at the specified price (if your broker guarantees it they are fools and you can certainly get your moeny out of them). The stop order is in essense a delayed market order with stop price used as a trigger to send the order to the market. After that it behaves as normal market order. Market orders are executed at the best available price, but not only that since there were plenty of stop orders in that area they had to build a queue in order of reaching the market. If there was no matching orders the price goes lower and lower until it finds some and executes. All buying liquidity was mostly above 1.20. Below 1.20 was just a few odd limit buys mostly profit targets.
The reason there was no other liquidity is that there was no one to provide it. All banks retracted their bids until market calms down. In this case the only provider should be the country central bank, but SNB decided to stay out until the end. So, I do not see where the liquididty should come from?
This market is not much different from stock market, if the company collapsing who should buy its shares? You may hit sell button as many as you like and have a stop loss, but if there is no buyers no trade transactions can be executed.
Wookey
  • #131
  • Jan 19, 2015 9:08pm Jan 19, 2015 9:08pm
Quoting Forexia
{quote} If you haven't read this, you should read it now. I will post it here again: http://forexmagnates.com/banks-bucke...nc-volatility/ This is what those liquidity "providers" did. And we are not talking about theories; we are talking about valuing the intrinsic value of a commodity properly and fair dealing. The price fell because those liquidity "providers" made it fall. And according to the article with the link above, they did things even more sinister. Regulations is only one of...

Forexia ,

i have read that post please help where the evidence for following points are given in the post.

  1. The price fell because those liquidity "providers" made it fall
  2. they did things even more sinister

if the issue is about pricing ... that is the whole basic nature of this market is currently not regulated and hence there could be(is) price variance across providers .. if there is a call to make it regulated i.e bring under a centralised system .. I believe there is a reason for why it is ...what it is ....

  • #132
  • Jan 19, 2015 9:12pm Jan 19, 2015 9:12pm
Keep in mind- a bankrupt broker can't afford to chase you.
  • #133
  • Jan 19, 2015 9:45pm Jan 19, 2015 9:45pm
Quoting Forexia
{quote} No I would not blame on the broker or the seller if I bought a property that's worthless and later on not able to sell it (although that broker would be guilty of not fulfilling his/her fiduciary duty to me and false advertising because he/she should've informed me that it's worthless but anyway that's a topic) BUT at the time when I need to sell it I WILL blame the buyer for purposefully telling all my potential buyers and brokers not to buy my property to make it unsellable just to make me desperate and then come back after a lengthy time...
Ill use a real world example of a recent 'acquisition' a client of ours made from another party. They had a project in which a client required some plant (or equipment as it is sometimes known). A client of ours took the 'information' that was displayed to purchase the plant from interstate and chose not to inspect the plant at the time of purchase. After they had floated the plant from 1 side of the country to another it was picked up that the plant was useless and required major work which coupled with the freight costs would have warranted purchasing a new piece of equipment locally.

His view was that the information available was genuine and 'interpreted' it one way. The price was low therefore he thought he was going to get a bargain, thinking dollar signs over everything else. The perception of a bargain against the prices quoted and accepted for the project took away the apparent 'risk' Had he chose to spend $400 on a flight to inspect the machines he would potentially have made a more informed decision and either barter the price lower to take into account costs of repairs or not purchased it in which case he would have saved himself a ton of money and heartache.

That misread, misinterpretation and non willingness to do his due diligence was not the fault of the person selling the item. It cannot be construed as fraudulent if you fail to do your own research before making an informed decision. The sole onus is on the purchaser. Of course it would be fraudulent to say the item is new when in fact it is not. Even 'like new' is an interpretation of seller and could mean it performs like new, smells like new, appears like new and it is up to the buyer to dig deeper.

We tend to think today that there are others out there that are more honest than ourselves and we take everything at face value instead of finding the time to conduct our own review. I guess it is this mentality that allows ourselves to point fingers everywhere else other than ourselves. Humans really are not very smart, infact the human mind can be coerced into all sorts of stupid ventures. Banks, Brokers, Real Estates, Lawyers they are all trying to sell their business over another and they leave much to be interpreted. The problem is too much regulation. People talk like regulation is the answer. It isn't the answer, the answer is getting off ones arse and doing something for themselves and not relying on Tom, John and Dave to be 'honest' and 'forthcoming' in their dealings. Regulations just create another control which is managed by someone else and is only there so that people have another reason to be lazier than normal.

I just shake my head. I shouldn't read too much into forums because people of different backgrounds and upbringings have a different view on things, but 1 thing is true of all people: you must take responsibility for your own actions. Blaming everyone else for choices you make is pointless and the world is going mad with litigation because someone cannot take responsibility for their choices.
  • #134
  • Jan 19, 2015 9:51pm Jan 19, 2015 9:51pm
Quoting Forexia
{quote} So you DO work for a bank. Well I hope you sleep tight at night knowing that you have robbed people millions of dollars, euros, pounds of money with your shady practice. And I would have to thank the liquidity "providers" for their charity for "allowing me to be in the market" LOL yeah like they gained nothing with us in the market; it's purely just charity work. LOL I am not being allowed to treat trading professionally when I have to deal with others that are unprofessional and don't play fair. You want to make a profit against me, you...
Really?! How do you get that from my comment, you obviously can't read either, that may just explain why you find yourself in the current predicament.
Enough, I'm not going to waste any more time reading your inane, ultracrepidarian ( you will probably have to look that up) comments. Stop wasting everyone's time.

Razor_trader, save your breath, he just aint going to get it.
  • #135
  • Jan 19, 2015 9:52pm Jan 19, 2015 9:52pm
Quoting Forexia
{quote} So you DO work for a bank. Well I hope you sleep tight at night knowing that you have robbed people millions of dollars, euros, pounds of money with your shady practice. And I would have to thank the liquidity "providers" for their charity for "allowing me to be in the market" LOL yeah like they gained nothing with us in the market; it's purely just charity work. LOL I am not being allowed to treat trading professionally when I have to deal with others that are unprofessional and don't play fair. You want to make a profit against me, you...
You need to spend some time in the pit trading. Everyone in there wants someone else to fail. Everyone in there is after your money whether it be beg, lie or cheat. They don't go there to make friends. Trading is an individual venture with goals. If you want charity go and join a mission in Africa and find water and food for those in need of it. Charity doesn't come through the trading system.

Professionalism, Play Fair and Profits don't belong together when money is to be made. Looking at lines or candles bobbing up and down is not a moral way of making money. The decisions made during trading effect the price that Cotton sells for and the impact on cotton farmers. It effects the price that an oil company is going to get for the oil they drill. There are people behind the scenes more effected by what happens in this market so please take 'morality' out of the equation. If you partake in trading but you're against the effect that it has on others lives then it could be likened to enjoying meat but being against the practice of slaughter. They don't go hand in hand and never will.
  • #136
  • Jan 19, 2015 9:58pm Jan 19, 2015 9:58pm
Quoting Greeny
{quote} Really?! How do you get that from my comment, you obviously can't read either, that may just explain why you find yourself in the current predicament. Enough, I'm not going to waste any more time reading your inane, ultracrepidarian ( you will probably have to look that up) comments. Stop wasting everyone's time. Razor_trader, save your breath, he just aint going to get it.
Greeny, I love debate no matter how frivolous it may appear . Sometimes I get overworked and sometimes others listen. I get overworked at times but I still try to take the time to absorb as much as I can so as to formulate a relevant rebuttal.

This shit storm that has been created by reckless trading is the perfect environment for those who are interested in human psychology and behavior particularly under stress. Even though it is written you can still get a gauge for the increases in adrenalin and blood pressure as others try to defend their reckless choices.

I find it fascinating but then again I have always found Neural linguistics and human nature fascinating, it is the reason why I catch the train most mornings and afternoons instead of driving for an hour.
  • #137
  • Jan 19, 2015 10:07pm Jan 19, 2015 10:07pm
Quoting wookey
That is a strange comment, str8, I doubt that many traders think of themselves as losers before loss happens. The funny thing is that those traders caught in EURCHF positions HAD a winning strategy and the strategy was scalping for few pips near the floor level effectively making money courtesy SNB. And they counted that SNB will give them profit all the time, but SNB thought differently and stopped providing bids, creating huge turmoil destroying those people's accounts. So, do you think they thought of themselves as losers until now? I bet most...
Picking up nickels in front of a bulldozer is not a winning strategy.
  • #138
  • Jan 19, 2015 10:08pm Jan 19, 2015 10:08pm
Quoting Razor_trader
{quote} Greeny, I love debate no matter how frivolous it may appear . Sometimes I get overworked and sometimes others listen. I get overworked at times but I still try to take the time to absorb as much as I can so as to formulate a relevant rebuttal. This shit storm that has been created by reckless trading is the perfect environment for those who are interested in human psychology and behavior particularly under stress. Even though it is written you can still get a gauge for the increases in adrenalin and blood pressure as others try to defend...
On that basis there is a Phd to be earned from Forexia then. You are obviously more patient than me, I've learned not to suffer fools lightly. I hope at least some of what you have said get's through to him/her.
  • #139
  • Jan 19, 2015 10:08pm Jan 19, 2015 10:08pm
Quoting EnoFX
{quote} Picking up nickels in front of a bulldozer is not a winning strategy.
Excellent!!!
  • #140
  • Jan 19, 2015 10:20pm Jan 19, 2015 10:20pm
Quoting connect_ananth
{quote} Forexia , i have read that post please help where the evidence for following points are given in the post. The price fell because those liquidity "providers" made it fall they did things even more sinister if the issue is about pricing ... that is the whole basic nature of this market is currently not regulated and hence there could be(is) price variance across providers .. if there is a call to make it regulated i.e bring under a centralised system .. I believe there is a reason for why it is ...what it is ....
You didn't see in the article where it pointed out banks like Barclay, when they finally came back to the market, they quoted their prices 7.8K+ pips away from the EBS?

In an extreme example (that affected at least two brokers), Barclays had filled EUR/CHF sell orders at 0.065 (no extra zero) while at the same time EBS was quoting its session low of 0.85. Technology providers that Forex Magnates spoke to corroborated with similar examples of their clients. Firms did state that Barclays and other banks ultimately did provide some price improvement, but often to levels below that of EBS’s low of the day.

Well here is more information about what those "large banks" did against us, all very typical tactics of bucket shop market maker brokers against us traders, last-look requoting and not honoring trades at valid prices:

Institutional traders and buyside members have seen an influx in banks using last look practises to overpower their clients. One trader who commented on the basis of anonymity said to Forex Magnates: “Quite simply Banks are having the biggest last look ever, typical of the market today, they enter a risk market and when it goes against them they fail to honour the trades.”

http://forexmagnates.com/banks-face-...mln-bloomberg/

In effect, what has appeared to have taken place is a massive ‘requote’ in the market. Mostly known for taking place between retail brokers and their customers, the table has been turned with brokers receiving word from banks that some of their trades with them have been cancelled. A letter to clients from one of the largest primary bank reviewed by Forex Magnates, stated that “significant issues” took place during the price drop and actual executions may not match that which was reported by their electronic systems. The result is that brokers who had filled customers, may still be on the hook for those trades with their counterparties after seeing trades with banks repriced due to initial rates ‘being out of the market".

http://forexmagnates.com/breaking-ig...tility-in-chf/

Ironically even many of the market maker brokers today don't even pull the "last look" requotes tactics anymore on us retail traders and this is what those so called "large banks" are still shamefully doing against their clients. And out of all this, they showed Citi losing $150 million. Waaaaahhhh... Poor Citi, losing money Waaaaahhhhh...
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
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