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  • #21
  • Jan 16, 2015 2:38pm Jan 16, 2015 2:38pm
Quoting Forexia
{quote} Yes but that's not the issue. I am ALWAYS wrong on my trade and I am ALWAYS highly leveraged and I am ALWAYS facing to me unreasonable slippages and spread but that has NEVER been a problem before. The question is WHY now? Like I said before because there has ALWAYS been a MARKET, not like yesterday where a pair is completely untradable for an hour. If you look at the charts for any CHF-paris from 4:45 am to 5:45 am there was NO bars, NO candles, NO nothing, just the background of the chart. THAT is unacceptable and NOT right!!! So don't...
Forexia, I am sorry. But I don't think you know how the market works. You were on the wrong side of the market at a time when volatility suddenly dried up. Full stop.

The only thing you can ask for is taking a loss no greater than where the market actually traded when bid/ask resumed across the globe. The rest is pure ideology.
  • #22
  • Jan 16, 2015 2:42pm Jan 16, 2015 2:42pm
Quoting Princeton
{quote}but not to get margin called at a price 20 or 30 handles away from real market levels and that what was not generated anywhere else on the planet but their broker's erroneous feed. And trust me, there are a lot of us in this case.
Yeah if only there was "real market levels". Who do you think set these "real market levels"? Us little retail traders who several K of account balance? It's those liquidity "providers", those "prime banks" and they weren't there to provide these "real market levels". That's what I am trying to point out.

You work for those banks who took off on us, that's fine, admit it but don't turn around and put a smear campaign on me who you know is right. Yes traders made the wrong trading decision. It happens. There is always a right side and a wrong side for every trade. But there should always be a MARKET there to see what's the right side and the wrong side and there wasn't one for an hour and that's NOT acceptable and needs to be ensured that it will never happen like that.
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #23
  • Jan 16, 2015 2:49pm Jan 16, 2015 2:49pm
Quoting r41225
Can you force your grocery store guy to give you groceries at any price you ask for? I think not. He says what price he's going to sell at & if you can't or don't want to pay it then you can't force him, he's running the store for a profit, he will sell if he can make a profit or minimize losses. In forex, you can buy as well as sell but it is like that too, LPs trade to make a profit so if they believe they can't make a profit at a given time then they won't want to trade. Forcing them to do so through regulation would be like forcing grocery stores...
Yes but the government CAN force that grocery store to stay open even during crisis times. And TRUST ME, these liquidity stoppers are NOT your average grocer around the corner, these are multi-national $billion-asset conglomerates who have been and are well compensated for their efforts in making market. They just didn't do their part in ensuring an existence of an orderly market. They didn't just provide unreasonable quotes with huge spread; it's they didn't provide quotes at all!!! Deutsche, along with all the other liquidity stoppers shut down their price feed for at least an hour!! For an hour, like I said, if you look at any charts for any CHF-pairs, there was NOTHING, no prices for at least an hour!! That's what caused the HUGE loss and this turmoil because even if the brokers wanted to control the risk and do margin-call and close positions, they couldn't even do it even with HUGE spread because there was NO prices, NO spread at all!! This is what's unacceptable and needs to be investigated and changed!!
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #24
  • Jan 16, 2015 2:53pm Jan 16, 2015 2:53pm
Quoting Forexia
{quote} Yeah if only there was "real market levels". Who do you think set these "real market levels"? Us little retail traders who several K of account balance? It's those liquidity "providers", those "prime banks" and they weren't there to provide these "real market levels". That's what I am trying to point out. You work for those banks who took off on us, that's fine, admit it but don't turn around and put a smear campaign on me who you know is right. Yes traders made the wrong trading decision. It happens. There is always a right side and a wrong...

Forexia, there is no guarantee of a market, ever! Nobody is going to provide you with a price at your stop just because you want them to, that is life. There have to be 2 willing partners on every trade and when one, in this case the LP does not feel like giving you a price then guess what there is no trade.

You cannot guarantee a market, nor can you regulate for it, you nor any regulator could ever force a LP to take the other side of a trade no matter just because it is in your favour.
A contrarian; I always disagree.
  • #25
  • Jan 16, 2015 2:55pm Jan 16, 2015 2:55pm
Quoting Forexia
{quote} Yeah if only there was "real market levels". Who do you think set these "real market levels"? Us little retail traders who several K of account balance? It's those liquidity "providers", those "prime banks" and they weren't there to provide these "real market levels". That's what I am trying to point out. You work for those banks who took off on us, that's fine, admit it but don't turn around and put a smear campaign on me who you know is right. Yes traders made the wrong trading decision. It happens. There is always a right side and a wrong...
Since Forex is not regulated or an exchange, real market levels can be inferred from a composite of numerous LP's shown by Bloomberg (which may be CMPN or BGN) or EBS. From these levels, you may know if the price at which you got margin called or stopped out is legit or not. In my case, I was executed far away from these levels. Hence my claim.

Again, I do not think that you know what you are talking about or the nature of what you are trading. And I would advise that you stop trading FX for your own good and ours since what you are demanding will only plague the industry with more unnecessary regulations only meant to protect people like you who deserve what they got.
  • #26
  • Jan 16, 2015 2:55pm Jan 16, 2015 2:55pm
Quoting Forexia
{quote} Yes but the government CAN force that grocery store to stay open even during crisis times. And TRUST ME, these liquidity stoppers are NOT your average grocer around the corner, these are multi-national $billion-asset conglomerates who have been and are well compensated for their efforts in making market. They just didn't do their part in ensuring an existence of an orderly market. They didn't just provide unreasonable quotes with huge spread; it's they didn't provide quotes at all!!! Deutsche, along with all the other liquidity stoppers...

No, what needs to be investigated and changed is how retailers got themselves into this situation, change the minimum deposit to 100k and reduce the leverage to 10:1 and force traders to always have a minimum margin level of 90% in their account.

Here fixed it for you. No need to "investigate" the LP's, they did exactly what they are supposed to do yesterday. The market worked, just not in your favour, tough luck.
A contrarian; I always disagree.
  • #27
  • Jan 16, 2015 2:56pm Jan 16, 2015 2:56pm
Quoting Princeton
{quote}You were on the wrong side of the market at a time when volatility suddenly dried up. Full stop.
Those liquidity did not "dry up"; they were stopped on purpose by irresponsible and greedy and unscrupulous "prime banks" who took $billions of bailout money from all of us in our tax dollars when they f***'ed up, when they were on the "wrong side of the market" with their MBS's. Did they admit they were wrong? Did they admit they were highly leveraged? No they took our money in strides and paid their top executives handsomely.

How we ask is for them to stay in the market to provide quotes during all time and all of sudden they are crying afoul? They f*** up, they get bail out in the $billions, we traded wrong, how about we get some help too? We don't even need a lot, just enough for us to go home to our family and children.
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #28
  • Jan 16, 2015 2:58pm Jan 16, 2015 2:58pm
Quoting Princeton
{quote} you may know if the price at which you got margin called or stopped out is legit or not. In my case, I was executed far away from these levels. Hence my claim.

Your claim won't fly either, there is no broker that will guarantee you those fills at the prices shown at EBS/BGN
A contrarian; I always disagree.
  • #29
  • Jan 16, 2015 2:59pm Jan 16, 2015 2:59pm
Quoting Forexia
{quote} Those liquidity did not "dry up"; they were stopped on purpose by irresponsible and greedy and unscrupulous "prime banks" who took $billions of bailout money from all of us in our tax dollars when they f***'ed up, when they were on the "wrong side of the market" with their MBS's. Did they admit they were wrong? Did they admit they were highly leveraged? No they took our money in strides and paid their top executives handsomely. How we ask is for them to stay in the market to provide quotes during all time and all of sudden they are crying...

There is no talking to you, you don't know what makes a market.


Have a great weekend, good luck on your crusade, but I feel the time would be better spend doing a bit of soul searching and learning what a market is.
A contrarian; I always disagree.
  • #30
  • Edited 9:35pm Jan 16, 2015 3:01pm | Edited 9:35pm
Quoting goldfinch
{quote} No, what needs to be investigated and changed is how retailers got themselves into this situation, change the minimum deposit to 100k and reduce the leverage to 10:1 and force traders to always have a minimum margin level of 90% in their account. Here fixed it for you. No need to "investigate" the LP's, they did exactly what they are supposed to do yesterday. The market worked, just not in your favour, tough luck.
Yeah wiping out the entire retail fx trading industry. Of course that's what you "big banks" want. All of sudden the playing field is levelled a little bit in our small traders' favour and of course you "big boys" don't like it. You want us to continuously give you our hard-earned dollars for you to play with and turn around give us 1% in returns in those mutual funds while you guys turn around and took our money and trade on MBS's with swaps and lose billions and then still had the audacity to ask us for bail out.

We just ask you to make market; we are not even asking you for bailout and this is the s*** we get?
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #31
  • Edited 9:35pm Jan 16, 2015 3:02pm | Edited 9:35pm
Quoting goldfinch
{quote} There is no talking to you, you don't know what makes a market. Have a great weekend, good luck on your crusade, but I feel the time would be better spend doing a bit of soul searching and learning what a market is.
Well I can't really do any "soul searching and learning what a market is" when the market keeps disappearing on me from time to time, first during the Flash crash and now? LOL You don't want to admit it, that's fine. But you know that I am right.

I think the only people who need to do those soul searching here is those "Prime banks" who were supposed to be there providing liquidity but instead chose to stop the liquidity and cause $millions of losses in the retail forex industry.
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #32
  • Jan 16, 2015 3:03pm Jan 16, 2015 3:03pm
Quoting goldfinch
It is obvious you are seeking to blame someone going by all your posts on the subject here in the last day and a half at no time did you admit that you were wrong on your trade, overleveraged and had not taken into account that a sudden drop would cause you to get filled at unreasonable prices.
You know, truth hurts.

Quoting Forexia
{quote} Yup that's the problem. We ask for the right regulations and they always end up giving us more crap like forbidding us to use credit cards to fund the account, anything to stop us retail traders to succeed so the "big boys" who bailed out on us this time can continue to make millions with our bailout money.
Quoting Forexia
{quote} No you cannot regulate stupidity and ignorance BUT you CAN regulate against irresponsibility and greed, like taking off and letting others holding the bag suffering losses when you are 1 million times better capitalized to absorb the same losses.
"Right regulations", "irresponsibility", "greed", these terms mean very different things to different people. Many people would consider use of leverage as "irresponsible" which needs "right regulations" to fix it & lower it or get rid of it entirely, a lot of people also think that traders "greedy" scum that wish to make money sitting on their @sses "doing nothing". And even though you already are aware of government's propensity to fck things up, you still don't seem to realize that more regulations & control are not the answer because people in government are there to make money for themselves, to wield their power & they do so at their own wishes, not for other people's sake.

Quoting Princeton
{quote} I guess we can all agree on the fact that Central Banks are authorized market manipulators. Now regarding clients getting affected by the CHF move, there are two kinds. The first is Forexia whining about the fact that this move caused a huge loss and not willing to take responsibility. And those like me that only demand to fairly take their loss, but not to get margin called at a price 20 or 30 handles away from real market levels and that what was not generated anywhere else on the planet but their broker's erroneous feed. And trust me,...
I think if a trader has been handed a loss on a price that's drastically different than other brokers then that's a justifiable grievance against the broker but if a trader isn't willing to take responsibility for the loss that he's incurred then that can't be justified.
  • #33
  • Jan 16, 2015 3:05pm Jan 16, 2015 3:05pm
Quoting Forexia
{quote} Those liquidity did not "dry up"; they were stopped on purpose by irresponsible and greedy and unscrupulous "prime banks" who took $billions of bailout money from all of us in our tax dollars when they f***'ed up, when they were on the "wrong side of the market" with their MBS's. Did they admit they were wrong? Did they admit they were highly leveraged? No they took our money in strides and paid their top executives handsomely. How we ask is for them to stay in the market to provide quotes during all time and all of sudden they are crying...
Ok this thread has officially turned into another leftist rant. I'm done with you.
  • #34
  • Edited 3:19pm Jan 16, 2015 3:07pm | Edited 3:19pm
Quoting Princeton
{quote} Ok this thread has officially turned into another leftist rant. I'm out.
He's right. I shouldn't turn this thread into a rant. Something solid should result from this discussion. We need to get this regulations passed to ensure smooth and orderly market at all times. It's only with an existing orderly market where losses can be controlled even during extreme market conditions such as yesterday. A market with $trillions of trading volume a day shouldn't all of sudden stop like that for any currency pairs. And it IS the responsibility of the liquidity providers to ensure that. They have been well compensated for doing that and the fact that they didn't like yesterday and in Flash Crash is not right.
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #35
  • Jan 16, 2015 3:11pm Jan 16, 2015 3:11pm
Quoting goldfinch
{quote} Your claim won't fly either, there is no broker that will guarantee you those fills at the prices shown at EBS/BGN
Then explain why IC Markets and many other brokers spontaneously sent an email notice to their affected clients talking about "wrongful trades" at "erroneous prices". Price spikes on Thursday were outrageous. Twenty to thirty handles deviation from BGN or EBS is simply unjustifiable by any stretch of the imagination. I know for a fact FX Primus and Axitrader for example already corrected their accounts.

So YES, this claim will fly. In fact, it already has 24 hours ago.
  • #36
  • Edited 4:13pm Jan 16, 2015 3:50pm | Edited 4:13pm
Quoting Princeton
{quote} Hence my claim. Again, I do not think that you know what you are talking about or the nature of what you are trading. And I would advise that you stop trading FX for your own good and ours since what you are demanding will only plague the industry with more unnecessary regulations only meant to protect people like you who deserve what they got.
Quoting goldfinch
{quote} No, what needs to be investigated and changed is how retailers got themselves into this situation, change the minimum deposit to 100k and reduce the leverage to 10:1 and force traders to always have a minimum margin level of 90% in their account. Here fixed it for you. No need to "investigate" the LP's, they did exactly what they are supposed to do yesterday. The market worked, just not in your favour, tough luck.
Yeah, if enough losing traders whine about more regulations then this exactly what forex industry might have to face I'm afraid

Quoting Forexia
{quote} Yes but the government CAN force that grocery store to stay open even during crisis times. And TRUST ME, these liquidity stoppers are NOT your average grocer around the corner, these are multi-national $billion-asset conglomerates who have been and are well compensated for their efforts in making market. They just didn't do their part in ensuring an existence of an orderly market. They didn't just provide unreasonable quotes with huge spread; it's they didn't provide quotes at all!!! Deutsche, along with all the other liquidity stoppers...
I don't agree that it is justifiable for governments to force grocers to stay open, I believe only voluntary interaction between people can be justified, not force & unprovoked violence. Moreover, forcing grocers to stay open is not as unprofitable as forcing LPs to trade at all times, it's akin to forcing grocers to sell their stuff at a massive loss & that will inevitably lead to closure of a lot of grocery shops due to lack of profit-incentive, & similarly, forcing LPs to trade unprofitably will have detrimental effects on the existence of LPs, leading to reduced liquidity & wide spreads which could destroy the retail fx industry.

I don't agree with bailouts, people should take responsibility for their actions so if businesses incur losses then they should bear them & not expect to be bailed out & similarly, I think traders should take responsibility for their losses too.
  • #37
  • Jan 16, 2015 7:36pm Jan 16, 2015 7:36pm
Quoting r41225
{quote} {quote} I don't agree that it is justifiable for governments to force grocers to stay open, I believe only voluntary interaction between people can be justified, not force & unprovoked violence. Moreover, forcing grocers to stay open is not as unprofitable as forcing LPs to trade at all times, it's akin to forcing grocers to sell their stuff at a massive loss & that will inevitably lead to closure of a lot of grocery shops due to lack of profit-incentive, & similarly, forcing LPs to trade unprofitably will have detrimental effects on the...
Except in this case, the losses could've been mitigated if there was an orderly market with correct price information but like I said, there wasn't because the liquidity providers dropping the balls on us and hence this mess. If forcing the grocers open during emergency times would avert crisis then yes that would be the right thing to do. And honestly none of the traders here are asking for bailout but just for an existence of an orderly market for them to control and mitigate risks that's all. It should've been there and it wasn't.
Make your losses in demo. Earn your profits live.
  • #38
  • Jan 17, 2015 12:20am Jan 17, 2015 12:20am
Quoting Forexia
it's they didn't provide quotes at all!!! Deutsche, along with all the other liquidity stoppers shut down their price feed for at least an hour!! For an hour, like I said, if you look at any charts for any CHF-pairs, there was NOTHING, no prices for at least an hour!!
A couple things here. During the fall, there were few quotes because no one wanted to buy. Who would be long EURCHF when everyone knew that CHF was way undervalued? A liquidity provider does just that. It provides liquidity. It does not create liquidity (in this case EURCHF buyers) out of thin air.

That they didnt provide quotes for an hour afterward is irrelevant, since it took 3 mins for the price to fall to where it did. The equity in all the accounts was already long gone by the time they shut off trading.

I dont like the big banks but keep in mind they virtually all lost money too, and many lost money because their clients, like many here, could not close the position. I say 'could not close their position' but that is not even the underlying problem. Its a symptom. The problem is that a central bank thought it knew what was best for its country and maybe even the world, so it manipulated the market single handedly. In a free market the EURCHF longs would lose money gradually over the 3 years. When SNB removed the peg, the market just did what it wanted to do all along
  • #39
  • Jan 17, 2015 3:46am Jan 17, 2015 3:46am
Quoting Forexia
{quote} Except in this case, the losses could've been mitigated if there was an orderly market with correct price information but like I said, there wasn't because the liquidity providers dropping the balls on us and hence this mess. If forcing the grocers open during emergency times would avert crisis then yes that would be the right thing to do. And honestly none of the traders here are asking for bailout but just for an existence of an orderly market for them to control and mitigate risks that's all. It should've been there and it wasn't.
The only "correct price" for any given transaction is the one where buyer and seller agree to make that transaction. Accordingly, the "correct price" after the 1.2 floor broke was the one where buyers & sellers agreed to transact, that's just the basics of how markets & prices move.
Again, LP didn't cause the crash, government's meddling in the markets & the resultant uncertaity caused it, the whole thing wouldn't even have occurred if SNB hadn't been artificially manipulating the markets.
I believe in equal rights & individualism, if you propose use of force against others then you shouldn't whine about it when force is used against you. Accordingly, if you don't like government regulation shoved down your throat then you shouldn't propose that government shove regulation down other people's throats. That would be hypocritical.
You ARE saying that LPs should have bailed you out of your losses. Like someone said, nobody forced you to trade, you traded because you wanted to, & you should have known that markets uncertain & are subject to big losses otherwise you shouldn't have been trading at all. You were overleveraged & made a bad trade, the sooner you accept it, the faster you'll grow internally as a trader.

Quoting RobertCorey
{quote} A couple things here. During the fall, there were few quotes because no one wanted to buy. Who would be long EURCHF when everyone knew that CHF was way undervalued? A liquidity provider does just that. It provides liquidity. It does not create liquidity (in this case EURCHF buyers) out of thin air. That they didnt provide quotes for an hour afterward is irrelevant, since it took 3 mins for the price to fall to where it did. The equity in all the accounts was already long gone by the time they shut off trading. I dont like the big...
Nicely said!
  • #40
  • Jan 17, 2015 4:13am Jan 17, 2015 4:13am
We are playing their game with their rules why would they make it so it best suits us when we want???? what do you expect to happen?
Causa sui
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