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How do YOU stay in a winning trade?

  • #41
  • Jan 7, 2015 8:25pm Jan 7, 2015 8:25pm
Quoting Razor_trader
{quote} Firstly, Long term is both not a measurable target (one persons view of LT could be a week and anothers a year) and to be honest it is irrelevant because eventually markets come back. Employing a Break Even strategy and being happy with it is also quite pointless because you will have opportunities or signs that a turn is coming and taking some, or all of the profits may be beneficial. This all being said I think if you chew yourself up for not taking profits, or not leaving trades running because of hindsight then you will not be [as] successful....
Thanks for contributing RT!
I also have trouble sitting on my hands. I definitely plan what I trade, keeping both the technical and fundamental aspects in mind, just trying to fine tune the plan! lol.
This is why I really appreciate everyone's different perspectives on this matter, as it gets me thinking about options that I might have otherwise overlooked. Of course these perspectives will differ because, as you said, there are different views of what Long Term really is.

I'm a big believer in finding out what works for you, taking peoples advice and fine tuning it so that it fits in with my style and view of the markets.
For the most part, I like to employ guidelines as opposed to hard and fast rules and percentages... I'm big on having the ability to exercise discretion.

I really enjoyed the millipede and similar threads, but have limited margin with my Canadian broker so it is difficult to be long and short in the same pair without using up my maintenance margin quickly.
I recently opened an account with Pepperstone with much higher leverage and am still trying to get used to their platform, which doesn't hold a candle to my current platform.
The idea with the Pepperstone account is to hold long term positions in higher margin pairs like the Pound and possibly build a Silver long position.

I don't want to trade with high leverage as some might assume, it's just that the maintenance margin requirements in Canada are brutal.
Freedom 30?
  • #42
  • Jan 7, 2015 8:38pm Jan 7, 2015 8:38pm
Quoting Torrent
{quote} Thanks for contributing RT! I also have trouble sitting on my hands. I definitely plan what I trade, keeping both the technical and fundamental aspects in mind, just trying to fine tune the plan! lol. This is why I really appreciate everyone's different perspectives on this matter, as it gets me thinking about options that I might have otherwise overlooked. Of course these perspectives will differ because, as you said, there are different views of what Long Term really is. I'm a big believer in finding out what works for you, taking peoples...
I trade with Pepperstone also and have been for some time. I am less interested in the fancy additions (which MT4 can offer) and more about the spread and execution. to which I have never had a problem. There support has been great aswell.

Onto margin. If you take a trade long and short, the margin requirements, if both trades are the same size, are cancelled. It is as if the trade has been closed but you do pay the commission and spread on both. This to me is not hedging, it is a short term trade view against a long term bias ie Short AUD but a solid bull movement or pullback that you take advantage of. Ideally with the millipede thread it gets you back in the game building positions for the longer term play. I have read it but I do find it difficult to follow the teachings because honestly it is not me but I do see the merit with building the longer positions, closing some out for profits to build or replenish equity.

Wish you all the best
  • #43
  • Jan 7, 2015 8:48pm Jan 7, 2015 8:48pm
Quoting Razor_trader
{quote} If you take a trade long and short, the margin requirements, if both trades are the same size, are cancelled. It is as if the trade has been closed but you do pay the commission and spread on both.
I actually did not know this!Call me ignorant... lol

I have similar feelings about the millipede.

Have a good one.
Freedom 30?
  • #44
  • Jan 7, 2015 10:00pm Jan 7, 2015 10:00pm
Silver777, I guess my trading style is like yours but although I look at the long term trend and only trade in that direction throughout the course of the trend, I enter and exit more frequently than you do, within it. As you say, the more you try to micromanage your entrances and exits, the harder it is to time them accurately, so I agree that your approach is better, probably for profitability and most definitely for sanity. The reason I don't trade in longer time frames? I'm an impatient busybody who has to be doing something all the time and also a control freak. I am also retired and have abundant time to trade..
  • #45
  • Jan 7, 2015 10:19pm Jan 7, 2015 10:19pm
The things that have helped me the most with this issue are:

1. Breaking the seal. Meaning, just doing it (I lowered my trade size quite a bit) a few times, then colored my chart bright orange to remind myself, and while it was difficult it was not impossible. The first few trades moved against me and took my profit away, but eventually I rode one for a big winner and since then I've found it much easier to stay on.

2. Walking away: Once I have enough exposure and do not plan on taking on any more trades, its time to do something else while I wait for my trade for a while. I will also only log into a demo account to check the prices so I cannot modify my trade..

3. Fundamental Analysis: When you know that the big, fundamental themes are on your side, it becomes much easier to stay in a winning trade.

Keep in mind though that you really do not have to sit through a lot of drawdown to be successful. If you set aside reasonable criteria for getting out of a trade before hand, go ahead and close the trade if triggered. For instance, perhaps a trendline break gives you the ability to close, or a moving average crossover, or you have a trailing stop. The important part is not being impulsive and not changing the game plan.
  • #46
  • Jan 8, 2015 12:48am Jan 8, 2015 12:48am
Quoting Torrent
When I trade I find my long term predictions on market direction to be quite accurate, but often I get shaken out of a position(s) long before my target has been met and then struggle to get back in and rebuild a sizable position. For instance the trends in USD/CAD and USD/JPY over the last year or so. So, the questions are simple. There are no right or wrong answers, just post what works for you. What method keeps you in for the long haul? How do you protect your floating profit? To look at a daily or weekly chart, in hindsight it's very simple....
i am a scalper so holding onto a winner until TP's reached is not an issue for me. having said that my view is that you must have a "realistic" target take profit exit, that should resolve your predicament.

"text book" says that markets are controlled by fear and greed. well i think fear has nothing to do with investing/trading. if we're in fear we would never enter into a position in first place, as fear of a loss would prevent any of us into entering a trade. no, it's just greed. if a position's out of the money, we don't want to close the trade and lose money -- if we're in the money, we want more and watch it go against us. so it's greed we must control and having a realistic TP and not hope for a fortune with a one home run trade should do the trick.

my 2 pips
wishing you profitable trading
  • #47
  • Jan 8, 2015 1:26am Jan 8, 2015 1:26am
Quoting LizzyBennet
Silver777, I guess my trading style is like yours but although I look at the long term trend and only trade in that throughout the course of the trend, I enter and exit more frequently than you do, within it. As you say, the more you try to micromanage your entrances and exits, the harder it is to time them accurately, so I agree that your approach is better, probably for profitability and most definitely for sanity. The reason I don't trade in longer time frames? I'm an impatient busybody who has to be doing something all the time and also a control...
Lizzy,

I don't know if my approach is better or not, it's just what works for me.

I tried to "retire" (live off of FX trading) a while back ago and I just had way too much time on my hands.......there's only so much golf or beach that I can take before I get bored of that too. There's probably something very wrong with me, lol!

This wreaked havoc on profitability because I would convince myself that I needed to micro-manage the trade, but in reality I messed with my positions out of boredom.

When I got to this point, I realized it wasn't so much about trading anymore but more about making a lifestyle choice.

That is why I started a family investment business (no I dont trade OPM, nor do I want to) it keeps me busy and in other markets which keeps me focused on the big picture and out of micro-managing a trade.
  • #48
  • Jan 8, 2015 1:36am Jan 8, 2015 1:36am
Quoting Mantis27
The things that have helped me the most with this issue are: 1. Breaking the seal. Meaning, just doing it (I lowered my trade size quite a bit) a few times, then colored my chart bright orange to remind myself, and while it was difficult it was not impossible. The first few trades moved against me and took my profit away, but eventually I rode one for a big winner and since then I've found it much easier to stay on. 2. Walking away: Once I have enough exposure and do not plan on taking on any more trades, its time to do something else while I wait...
Great post Mantis!

The less screen time the better, I've learned the hard way that if I stare at a chart long enough, I could delude myself into anything. The first big trend that you catch makes it a lot easier for the ones that follow. Also knowing exactly where to get in, where to get out and how to manage the position in between has helped me a lot, I guess that is what you are referring to as a game plan.
  • #49
  • Jan 8, 2015 5:04am Jan 8, 2015 5:04am
I like the idea of logging into a demo to check your trades!
Too much time on my hands is also a problem for me, when I took a week off of work and still traded while on holidays... the results were less than stellar.
Freedom 30?
  • #50
  • Jan 8, 2015 5:25am Jan 8, 2015 5:25am
I have the same questions and found solution here. Thanks all
  • #51
  • Jan 8, 2015 5:29am Jan 8, 2015 5:29am
Quoting Torrent
I like the idea of logging into a demo to check your trades! Too much time on my hands is also a problem for me, when I took a week off of work and still traded while on holidays... the results were less than stellar.
Torrent, I can relate to how you feel.

For me, the last major barrier to profitable trading was too much idle time. When I was still learning to be profitable, all my time was focused on learning, studying, improving and making tweaks here / there. When the pieces finally fell into place, I no longer needed to "work" as hard and I had so much idle time.

Now here comes the kicker!

If I hadn't found other activities to fill up that idle time, I would probably be unprofitable (or much less profitable) today! I don't know if this is true for everyone, but once I reached a certain point then I needed to get out of my own way to reach the next level.

Strange, but true!
  • #52
  • Edited 11:06am Jan 8, 2015 10:14am | Edited 11:06am
Quoting Torrent
What method keeps you in for the long haul? How do you protect your floating profit?
Hi Torrent,

this seems fun, so am gonna share my silly entry system. For start I would like to say this is heavily simplified, as precise leverage always depends on circumstances - mainly RR.

Each long term trade is traded in one session. Session is +- one wave, but also influenced by things like - I dont have time - so its half of wave . I separate my entries in two types 1) intrasession trade 2) runner. Goal of entry is ofc to open runner, coz thats where most profits are, at least in my system. Runner has its final target set at the end of the session - wave. Target means - am trading long term trend, so it is final dropzone for monthly chart, usually like 100 pips thick and targets are set through the zone - it is not a number - big zone - average TP is about mid of drop zone. Aim of intrasession trades is to a) cover SL of runners b) remain on same leverage whole wave to final target - so if you accidentally loose part of runner (coz you got scared for example - you load more on intrasession - in fact it doesnt matter where as long as it is above close of that minitrade).

So for example the trade goes like this: Start: You have a downtrend, either alredy running or you analyzed there is one coming, so looking for ressistance to enter. Goal is to enter on ressistance and ride downtrend leveraged 5:1 (I remind here leverage heavily depends on RR and it is just an example). So, PA is heading to R, tests it once, suppose it holds at least on H1 and you "scalp" - enter like 30:1 - while 5:1 is a runner and 25:1 intrasession. Now lets say out of those 25:1, you take 10:1 intraday, 10:1 intraweek and 5:1 intramonth.

Point is - before PA reaches final target for runner, there may be several levels retests in different timeframes. And each of these intrasession trades is covering that retest. If you got major pullback and SL of runner gets hit, you are in fact BE, coz you took the minitrades - and you can reenter - and reenter - and reenter.

Edit: Just for the fun of it - ofc this scenario applies in lesser scale every single wave, so for example you got 3 subwaves in downtrend and got 3:1 for runner on first, 1,5:1 on second and 0,5:1 on last subwave - again, heavily depends on type of cycle and RR. Same applies to intrasession trades. Start is the most hard part ofc, easier to wait for start of a trend.
1more edit, so its precise: Goal was to stay on 5:1 whole trade. The difference between subwaves - 1st wave you were 3:1 - 2:1 lesser - is compensated by those intrasession trades. Athough they are on higher leverage - you dont hit precise entries and exits, as the lesser timeframe, the higher volatility. So in the end you get that 2:1 profits on subwave by closing 10:1 intraday on wrong places - moreover, since intrasession leverage is higher, if you micromanage well, you can be making profits out of subwaves, which is the best case scenario.
I like to edit: regarding psychology, this works wonders if I already have set targets for intrasession trades:
Quoting Mantis27
2. Walking away.

I hope I didnt make it confusing ,

T
"I know one thing, that I know nothing." Sokrates
  • #53
  • Jan 8, 2015 6:26pm Jan 8, 2015 6:26pm
Quoting Haynes6EU
I have the same questions and found solution here. Thanks all
Nice!
Freedom 30?
  • #54
  • Jan 8, 2015 6:27pm Jan 8, 2015 6:27pm
Quoting Silver777
{quote} Torrent, I can relate to how you feel. For me, the last major barrier to profitable trading was too much idle time. When I was still learning to be profitable, all my time was focused on learning, studying, improving and making tweaks here / there. When the pieces finally fell into place, I no longer needed to "work" as hard and I had so much idle time. Now here comes the kicker! If I hadn't found other activities to fill up that idle time, I would probably be unprofitable (or much less profitable) today! I don't know if this is true...
I know exactly what you mean!
I do my best work when I'm busy.
Freedom 30?
  • #55
  • Jan 8, 2015 6:32pm Jan 8, 2015 6:32pm
Quoting Tom_D_Trader
{quote} Hi Torrent, this seems fun, so am gonna share my silly entry system. For start I would like to say this is heavily simplified, as precise leverage always depends on circumstances - mainly RR. Each long term trade is traded in one session. Session is +- one wave, but also influenced by things like - I dont have time - so its half of wave . I separate my entries in two types 1) intrasession trade 2) runner. Goal of entry is ofc to open runner, coz thats where most profits are, at least in my system. Runner has its final target set at the...
Hey T,
that's a really cool way of looking at it! You are making consistent small profits on your intrasession trades which keeps your balance moving along with your equity.
I always had a really tough time when I was starting out and my equity was considerably higher than my balance.
Freedom 30?
  • #56
  • Jan 8, 2015 7:12pm Jan 8, 2015 7:12pm
Nice thread guys
  • #57
  • Jan 9, 2015 3:06pm Jan 9, 2015 3:06pm
Quoting Torrent
I always had a really tough time when I was starting out and my equity was considerably higher than my balance.
Hi again,

while you seem to be listening to my advices, I have to tell you that diamond next to my name is some FF nonscence, am only 30 y/o and the only reason why I can survive in FX is coz I am pretty used to be poor so I dont need much cash. This is more of a fun for me, though it pays rent, sometimes .

Regarding equity considerably above balance - I sometimes had this problem too - with smaller accounts. Generally it is not very good because of this single reason - you gotta get out of screen from time to time. You need to eat, sleep, fuck, whatever. Floating profit is great, but I got this saying: "The second you go to toilet, the´r gonna bomb the White House". It is very hard to ride longer wave - say half a year - on high leverage, thats why I wrote 1:5.

For this reason I had to remind myself to watch different numbers than those on chart, when it comes to account balance. See, for example I have perfect entry, 10% floating, but target is a bit lower on 10,5%. And those lines in chart are soo precise, arent they, I want that last 0,5%. Or else, I can screw 0,5%, cash out and have fcking fun. So, numbers on chart are great, but a)Cash - what can you actually buy for your floating b)Percentage - you made 10%? Why the heck making 10,5? Ofc depends on your target, but if I make 4% a month am very happy.

enjoy weekend,

T
"I know one thing, that I know nothing." Sokrates
  • #58
  • Jan 9, 2015 7:53pm Jan 9, 2015 7:53pm
Quoting Tom_D_Trader
{quote} Hi again, while you seem to be listening to my advices, I have to tell you that diamond next to my name is some FF nonscence, am only 30 y/o and the only reason why I can survive in FX is coz I am pretty used to be poor so I dont need much cash. This is more of a fun for me, though it pays rent, sometimes . Regarding equity considerably above balance - I sometimes had this problem too - with smaller accounts. Generally it is not very good because of this single reason - you gotta get out of screen from time to time. You need to eat, sleep,...
Haha! Don't worry I don't follow anyone blindly... I just like to see what other people do and add/adapt their styles to my bag of tricks. For me, my goal is to eventually match my pay cheque every month. Some weeks I won't even get close and other weeks it seems almost easy, but the trick is to get consistent over the course of each month.
My nemesis is when I have an amazing week or month, catching a trend and adding to my positions and gaining a large portion of my account; then I don't adapt to the consolidation or retrace and blow most or all of it shortly after!
Freedom 30?
  • #59
  • Jan 10, 2015 12:25am Jan 10, 2015 12:25am
It's great to hear from everyone as to how you manage your time between trading and living life. It is definitely true that there is an optimum amount of time (unique to each person) one should spend on trading, and more time does not equal better profitability after a certain point because self jeopardising behaviours can creep in, such as over analysing, over meddling, etc. I am still trying to find my sweet spot while also trying to find some kind of balance in daily life. NY open occurs about 30 minutes to an hour into dinnertime at my home and a long dinner at home or out with friends means that I miss most or all of London/NY overlap. Dinnertime is also when all the major announcements happen. Hence, I am trying to find a way to trade successfully and smartly (i.e., at the right times for the right amount of time) that will still allow me to have sufficient social contact and keep my marriage intact.
  • #60
  • Jan 10, 2015 1:01am Jan 10, 2015 1:01am
Wow. Kind regards to the participants of this thread. It's great to see a group in good solid discussion with good ideas coming across. It's also good to finally see a group that thinks like I do...

- No stop loss here. I did use 'em. They kept getting hit by enough to set 'em off, so, they went out the window

- I don't adhere to anyone's particular system. I firmly believe that to do well at FX you have to be aware of yourself first. You've got to understand your own wiring and and then work on developing a trading system that "fits". What's working for someone else apparently really well may not work for you at all.

- All price has a context. Long term, short term, for scalpers...doesn't really matter your style but you've got to recognize the context of price.

- Money management. Some time ago I took advantage of MT4's ability to drop live price into excel. I took it a little further so that the sheet adjusted in real time to reflect actual margin use/% and how many pips to a margin call should the trade go against me. This was a BIG helper to see in real time just how much it would take for a margin call to take place based on the volume of my trades. There is a point in margin use where it's near impossible for the market to crap out your account. Take a look at my current trade explorer and you'll see some trades there that would astound most in their stupidity, but the point of them is to illustrate how important it is to be as aware as possible of the condition of your account.

- Psychology: FEAR and GREED - so good to hear others speak of this...The two chief emotions expressed in price action... The traders counter attack? Patience for the trade to develop. That's all a good trade really needs is a chance to develop and many times we don't give our trades the room they need to develop into what we know they will become.
"Holy Grail" exists - accepting where is the first step.
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