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Interactive Brokers - experiences and opinions

  • #541
  • Aug 30, 2014 5:17am Aug 30, 2014 5:17am
Quoting Mevo
Kadc, Ok, I agree with the thinking. About a price competitive alternative in Canada, we're VERY far from it. Even a price competitive alternative anywhere in the world for $10K account, I was unable to find one, by far ! But that's another story. Now, about what you're pointing out: You are relying on the amounts on REPORTS or in the TWS account window ? Because if you take the account window in TWS, you have to take in consideration the hours when currencies and products held in your account are recalculated. And to take the same values. If you...
As you can see from my previous responses (including my replies to you) I check my balances throughout the day using current currency values and I have always had all options enabled when generating reports. By your own admission IB balances are inaccurate and can't be relied on and I don't understand why you are so complacent about accounting errors. Why do you feel it's okay for your balances to be off towards the end of the week as long as they are corrected later?

Accurate calculations are the simplest of computer tasks -- it's why we invented computers in the first place -- and there is no reason why any account balance should be out for more than the millisecond it takes for data to update. Software that can render hundreds of lines across multiple windows on several monitors in real-time should certainly be able to add and subtract simple dollar amounts without money disappearing only to show up in random amounts days later.

Accounting errors, large or small, temporary or undiscovered, software glitches or intentional, in the finance industry or any other, are never acceptable and should never be tolerated.
You can always make money tomorrow provided you don't lose it today.
  • #542
  • Aug 30, 2014 6:16am Aug 30, 2014 6:16am
Quoting Mevo
{quote} ... IB has a $10K account minimum, it's not like $100 was a very big amount.
It makes no difference whether someone steals $100 from my bank account or my wallet. Even if they give it back later they had no right to take it in the first place. I tolerate it only because this is what I do to make money and there's currently no realistic alternative for FOREX trading in Canada.

I use Questrade for stocks, and though they are terrible at updating portfolios after stock splits (worse since they outsourced their accounting last year) the account balances have always been correct other than some discrepancies created when they did some manual dividend corrections and converted "the wrong way" between US and Canadian funds then compounded the problem by repeating the error in the process of correcting the new error. They also seem to have a poor understanding of mandatory annual TIF withdrawal amounts, but if you don't have TIF accounts with multiple institutes that's not likely a problem you'll have to deal with.

To be fair though, I don't check the balances of the Questrade accounts daily so maybe they are just as bad. Maybe every broker does this and there's no escaping "borrowing" cash from accounts. At least Questrade reports are straight forward so comparing transaction history against portfolio balances is easy (if somewhat inconvenient due to the report download format options -- a macro to convert delimited text to Excel is very useful).
You can always make money tomorrow provided you don't lose it today.
  • #543
  • Aug 30, 2014 6:41am Aug 30, 2014 6:41am
Quoting KADC
{quote} As you can seewinmy previous responses (including my replies to you) I check my balances throughout the day using current currency values and I have always had all options enabled when generating reports. By your own admission IB balances are inaccurate and can't be relied on and I don't understand why you are so complacent about accounting errors. Why do you feel it's okay for your balances to be off towards the end of the week as long as they are corrected later? Accurate calculations are the simplest of computer tasks -- it's why we invented...

I only spoke of TWS account window during the week end, especially with options, as IB does all options expiry calculation during week ends and often have maintenance too.

I guess your account balance isn't calculated by TWS on your computer, but by IB's servers (not sure about that). And during the day, your balance is only updated every few 10s of seconds or even minutes. You see at the bottom left of the account window a mention "Last updated at:" with the time.

Do you imagine how much calculation that would be to update every account with all the information at every millisecond for IB ? What's the need ? Yes, I don't have any problem to have an account balance that is a little approximative during the day (and it's VERY close) and everything calculated exactly one time per day with a full report generated. Not having your account balance calculated to the exact dollar realtime during the day can't be regarded as "accounting error".

Ok, now regarding your "problem", are you sure it's not just a misunderstanding ? You told to have "mgc oct 14" on your account, I guess it's the Mini GOLD Nymex future. Maybe you and IB are just not valuing the products at the same price, no ? This contract has not many transactions. I guess IB takes the last transaction value when there is one, or maybe it values it with the underlying price ? How did you do ? Maybe you took the ask/bid price ?

And there is a way they do with transactions that occured too that I'm not too sure about. When you sell a product for example, I'm not sure they credit you the amount "realtime", or only the close value of the previous day or something like that. And then the difference beetween the previous day's close and your transaction price is only adjusted during the night ? Not sure about this, but I noticed that transactions during the day sometimes change a little your account balance compared to what it should be.

Another thing is that I guess IB only calculates products in another currency than your base currency with the previous day close value of that currency. The currency conversion value is only updated once per day, not realtime.

IB has his own way to value things. Not that it is wrong, but they made some choices, probably to have less calculations to do with their servers. Your intraday account value shown is TWS must probably be seen as indicative (but really, really close), only the end of day reports can be taken as your real and exact account value.

That's a problem for you ? How do you want to value products held with no transaction, idiots buying or selling pre or after market a product very far away from the real price and so on ? Your account value during the day can only really be indicative.
  • #544
  • Aug 30, 2014 6:52am Aug 30, 2014 6:52am
Quoting KADC
{quote} It makes no difference whether someone steals $100 from my bank account or my wallet. Even if they give it back later they had no right to take it in the first place. I tolerate it only because this is what I do to make money and there's currently no realistic alternative for FOREX trading in Canada.
Come on, banks are really ripping you off with the "value dates". When you put $100 on your account today, they will only consider it is on your account tomorrow.And whe you take $100 from your account, they will consider you took it yesterday. It has an importance because of the interest calculations (which are almost 0 these days, that's another thing)

But as long as IB calculates everything correctly at the end of the day, a little bit less or more during the day has no impact as interests are calculated at the end of day. So you are not ripped off in any way.And it seems to me that all you are talking about has more to do with VALUATION (and how they do things) than with TAKING anything from you.
  • #545
  • Aug 30, 2014 6:57am Aug 30, 2014 6:57am
Quoting KADC
{quote} Maybe every broker does this and there's no escaping "borrowing" cash from accounts.
Lol. You are in any way lending all the extra cash on your account to the broker for free. You are focusing on a number showing on your computer that has no real impact on that.And I'm loosing time debating with you about that
  • #546
  • Aug 30, 2014 7:28am Aug 30, 2014 7:28am
Thanks for the information guys. I'm going to start recording some of the numbers this coming week. For my account, the fluctuations in "liquidation value"/equity will be impossible with all my option positions but I think the CASH number shouldn't change unless I close/open a new position or an option expires in-the-money. If it expires out-of-the-money, that shouldn't change the CASH amount since that is credited @ the time of the sale. My margin fluctuates though as I have naked puts & calls that I've sold so as price gets closer to the strike price, IB increases the margin requirements.
I'll let you know if I find something that I think isn't correct.
Thanks!
  • #547
  • Aug 30, 2014 7:38am Aug 30, 2014 7:38am
The numbers are all Interactive Brokers' -- the valuations and balance calculations are their own. Why do you feel they can calculate unrealized profit and loss in real time but can't apply that to an account balance? Also, TWS calculates unrealized profit and loss based on a vehicle's last traded value, and whether this is calculated on my end or theirs, why do you feel a dozen live trades can be updated in real time but it would take some colossal effort on their part to add or subtract this amount from an account balance in a similar time frame?

Regardless, this isn't even a matter of not updating in real-time as at no time was my balance short that extra $100 that is missing, so it's not any kind of account balance "lag", and neither is the displayed account balance some kind of irrelevant convenience as I've had my account at maximum margin before and had stops cancelled when available funds dropped below $2,000 US by as little as $10, the minimum necessary to execute a trade, so whether it's on their end or ours, it is treated as a real amount.

Now if the TWS manual stated "account balances are arbitrary estimates" you'd have a defensible argument, but it is supposed to, and has proven to be, a reflection of your actual current balance. Now, i don't care if it's updated every second or every minute or even only a few times an hour, but these shortages, if merely self-correcting (days later?) calculatory errors, are purely fictional, not delayed data, and that's no more reassuring than if they are taking the money intentionally.
You can always make money tomorrow provided you don't lose it today.
  • #548
  • Aug 30, 2014 7:47am Aug 30, 2014 7:47am
Srt: Every price fluctuation will change your amount of cash as PnL eats cash (additional unrealized loss) or gives you additionnal cash (additional unrealized profit)

Kadc: PnL is not calculated in real time, that's what I spent my previous messages to explain to you. So you account balance and cash value cannot either. And even every few minutes, it's not calculated to absolutely exact values for all the reasons explained before.
  • #549
  • Aug 30, 2014 8:00am Aug 30, 2014 8:00am
Quoting KADC
The numbers are all Interactive Brokers' -- the valuations and balance calculations are their own.
I don't understand. You didn't calculate values by yourself to find amounts are wrong, but claim addition/substractions with IB values are wrong ? Post a screenshot of your account window balances and the statement of funds report of the end of day, I will show you nothing is wrong then.
  • #550
  • Aug 30, 2014 8:05am Aug 30, 2014 8:05am
Quoting Mevo
Srt: Every price fluctuation will change your amount of cash as PnL eats cash (additional unrealized loss) or gives you additionnal cash (additional unrealized profit) Kadc: PnL is not calculated in real time, that's what I spent my previous messages to explain to you. So you account balance and cash value cannot either. And even every few minutes, it's not calculated to absolutely exact values for all the reasons explained before.
I haven't watched close enough how IB labels the different amounts.
The way I see it: Cash/Balance + Open position value= Equity(Liquidation Value)
If IB changes the CASH amount throughout the day, then I just disagree the way they apply the values. CASH should not change.
If I have $500 in my pocket & I buy $100 of gold, then my cash is $400 regardless of the fluctuation in the value of the gold. The $400(CASH) should never change unless I make another purchase/sale. Pretty simple the way I see it but IB apparently does it differently which doesn't really matter, just not correct in my opinion.
  • #551
  • Aug 30, 2014 8:25am Aug 30, 2014 8:25am
Humm, Srt, what you have written makes sens when I read it, especially your example.
I was asking myself if what I told was wrong after reading it, but seems correct (don't ask me why !):

https://www.interactivebrokers.com/e...26037_Balances

And a very important point (maybe explaining KADC "problem") is that it seems that SETTLED cash is taken in consideration. So you only get your money 3 days after selling and pay 3 days after buying... (edit: Seems you get the cash immediately when you sell according to the link !!! So you would only have cash deducted 3 days after a buy ? Would be really in your favor)

KADC: Did you have movements (maybe a buy ?) in the 3 days before you saw your "problem" ?). Did you know it was the SETTLED cash which was used (I didn't until I looked at IB's website)
  • #552
  • Aug 30, 2014 2:20pm Aug 30, 2014 2:20pm
can someone clarify on IB's pipette accuracy? their live spreads show 5 full decimal places for EUR USD, but the demo service displays pipettes in 1/2 increments.
  • #553
  • Sep 2, 2014 12:39am Sep 2, 2014 12:39am
I've made no new orders since last Thursday. Looking at my account for the first time today since close of trading Friday, my opening cash balance is down another $50 notwithstanding unrealized profit and loss which is correct when accounting for changes to base currency. The $100 from last Thursday, however, remains missing.

Previously, the cash balance has never been down by more than $50 from where it should be, and any time it was more than $30 it was corrected to within $20 within twelve hours. I exited my AUD/USD long and the cash balance updated. It also updates roughly once every five minutes to match unrealized profit and loss, so this is not an updating issue (and again, were that the case overages would be as common as being under).

I've tracked IB realized and unrealized profit and loss numbers (and recheck them infrequently) and compared them to what they should be and they have always been accurate so I do not believe the issue lies there.

Update: Now that I have Thursday's and Friday's report available, the discrepancy appears to be applying the full unrealized loss of my MGC long rather than the difference from the prior day. This is an accounting trick that takes advantage of anyone who simply looks at the daily report without comparing it to the previous day since the numbers for the day itself appear to add up without the context of prior unrealized profit and loss. This is similar to when they were applying the full monthly accumulated interest amount daily rather than only the amount accrued for that day, something they have not done since June.

Presumably this error will be corrected and the money will be reappear in my account over the coming week as was the case with the miscalculated accrued interest amounts, but this shouldn't be happening in the first place.
You can always make money tomorrow provided you don't lose it today.
  • #554
  • Sep 2, 2014 12:42am Sep 2, 2014 12:42am
Quoting naizarak
can someone clarify on IB's pipette accuracy? their live spreads show 5 full decimal places for EUR USD, but the demo service displays pipettes in 1/2 increments.
Yes, you can trade to five digits of precision for EUR/USD.
You can always make money tomorrow provided you don't lose it today.
  • #555
  • Sep 2, 2014 3:10am Sep 2, 2014 3:10am
Quoting naizarak
can someone clarify on IB's pipette accuracy? their live spreads show 5 full decimal places for EUR USD, but the demo service displays pipettes in 1/2 increments.
You can only place orders on 0.5 pip increments, but IB may execute at a slighly better price up to 0.4 pips
It means that you can put a buy limit at 1.20015 and you will usually get executed beetween 1.20011 and 1.20015
(it's the same when you execute market orders)

So last prices and your executed prices appear as a full 5 digit price, but your orders and the bid/ask appear only as a 4 digit + 0.5 pip price.
  • #556
  • Sep 2, 2014 3:22am Sep 2, 2014 3:22am
Quoting Mevo
{quote} You can only place orders on 0.5 pip increments, but IB may execute at a slighly better price up to 0.4 pips It means that you can put a buy limit at 1.20015 and you will usually get executed beetween 1.20011 and 1.20015 (it's the same when you execute market orders) So last prices and your executed prices appear as a full 5 digit price, but your orders and the bid/ask appear only as a 4 digit + 0.5 pip price.
My EUR/USD orders and bid/ask appear to 5 decimal places, the last digit being ½ increments only (i.e. 1.xxxx5 or 1.xxxx0). Are you using something other than TWS to execute your trades?

Attached Image (click to enlarge)
Click to Enlarge Name: 5 decimal places.jpg Size: 126 KB
You can always make money tomorrow provided you don't lose it today.
  • #557
  • Sep 2, 2014 3:34am Sep 2, 2014 3:34am
Quoting KADC
{quote} My EUR/USD orders and bid/ask appear to 5 decimal places, the last digit being ½ increments only (i.e. 1.xxxx5 or 1.xxxx0). Are you using something other than TWS to execute your trades?
Read again your post and mine: Isn't it what I wrote ? Isn't it the same (and different from your post before, especially seen the question from Naizarak ?)
Ok dude, I'm sorry, but you seem to have some problems, so I won't answer to you anymore (this was already what I decided a while ago, but still answered until now)
  • #558
  • Sep 2, 2014 4:15am Sep 2, 2014 4:15am
Quoting Mevo
{quote} Read again your post and mine: Isn't it what I wrote ? Isn't it the same (and different from your post before, especially seen the question from Naizarak ?) Ok dude, I'm sorry, but you seem to have some problems, so I won't answer to you anymore (this was already what I decided a while ago, but still answered until now)
Yes, I must have misread your answer. When you re-answered the question I'd already answered for Naizarak two and a half hours earlier I mistook that as you once again pointlessly disagreeing with me rather than reiterating what I'd already posted.

Please, however, keep to your decision not to bother to replying to my posts unless you have something more productive to contribute. You verified that your cash position is also frequently incorrect but eventually balances out, something we'd already determined in this thread nearly a year ago (before I had all the inactive Interactive Brokers threads merged with mine) but further verification is useful. Unfortunately, you then decided to ignore points that have already been made and argue about why inaccurate cash balances are not a problem for you.

Now, if you don't care about bad accounting and/or programming and/or business practices, that's entirely up to you, but even if you don't have an accounting, programming, or business background you should still find that distressing. However, I respect your choice not to care about these discrepancies and I'll hope you chose to have more respect for other people's opinions in the future.
You can always make money tomorrow provided you don't lose it today.
  • #559
  • Sep 2, 2014 4:31am Sep 2, 2014 4:31am
oh jeez that's bad news for scalping. why is finding a decent broker so difficult for US customers. every one i've looked at had some major issue that kept me from opening an account
  • #560
  • Sep 2, 2014 6:31am Sep 2, 2014 6:31am
Quoting naizarak
oh jeez that's bad news for scalping. why is finding a decent broker so difficult for US customers. every one i've looked at had some major issue that kept me from opening an account
Did you have a look at ATC Brokers, FXCM Pro or Dukascopy US white label ? (Fxdd and Alpari were proposing the solution in the US, I don't know if they still do it)
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