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Your Trading Struggles - What is the biggest factor?

  • #1
  • First Post: Jul 15, 2014 5:06am Jul 15, 2014 5:06am
Take a breath, shut your eyes and think for a couple of moments. Why are you not yet a consistently profitable trader?

Really think deeply. Go beyond your last few traders, think about your trading experience as a whole. What about last months trading? What about last years trading? If you had to distil your struggles into a single component of the trading puzzle, what would it be?



1. Developing a system with a reliable edge.

2. Finding a system with a reliable edge.

3. Following rules over a long period of time.

4. Beating your trading demons (greed / fear / impatience)

5. Not sure how to move forward and become a better trader.



The above seem to be the most common issues that traders seem to have but if your struggle is something different from the above, I'd love to hear it.

To make it even more interesting, what do you think you need to do to master your struggle?
  • #2
  • Jul 15, 2014 4:43pm Jul 15, 2014 4:43pm
Interesting that no-one is willing to consider this. OK, I'll begin.

I've been trading for six years and if I had to choose one, I'd choose.....

5. Why?

I system hopped for a few years and then stuck with a system that didnt' work for a few years after that. I spun my wheels for 4 YEARS.

If I'd mastered number 5, I suppose I would've have had to waste all that time.

Still interested to hear your stories.
  • #3
  • Edited 2:57am Jul 16, 2014 2:01am | Edited 2:57am
Fine I'll pitch in...

Been trading since August 2008 till now..

At the moment I am testing the consistency.. been doing good so far since January 2014...


The "Trading Struggles - What is the biggest factor?" that I have to overcome is

1. Developing a system with a reliable edge. ( you can't find...the system no one give the grail to you)



But during this process of "Developing" I find that no system ever work in the long run due to the Market Random.

However, the one thing I found out that MAKE me win.......... is "developing a money management that fit MY risk tolerance".

I also found out that Stoploss is not for me...

So when I start removing stoploss AND learn to "control my money management with martingale, scale in, etc.. you name it"

I start to win......

I will say: no stoploss and martingale is 100% time better than ANY system in this world because it is the only way you can get rich quick......

With martingale + no sl... You risking measly...1000$ or even...3000$..to get your million$ ...dream...

Where as with other system... you are risk 3000$ and maybe highest most people can get is around 10,000$...


Before during my first 1-3 year of playing/learning forex:
I saw forex as a business. You have to play SAFE preserve your capital. You have to have an consistent wining system to MAKE a living out of forex full time.

After during my 4th year:
I now see forex as a "GAME of lucky AND unlucky random cycle", you need to be LUCKY and HOG all the money to yourself During YOUR LUCKY cycle.
If my lucky cycle does not come it's ok, i'll be like normal poor people working low wage job my life can't be worse than it already is... losing 3000$ is not the end of the world..... But when I am lucky I'll hit the rich world.....


This is the philosophy I believe in and it work with everything not just forex.
" In this world, the more money you have the more RISK you have to take".

Why do people do not just "copy bill gate", go get your programing degree... create a BETTER WINDOWS OS than bill gate... then you will BE rich JUST like Bill Gate. Well you know the answer, many people do not want to "RISK losing LOT of $$$$$ open a business and fail"

Bill gate is not rich..he poor and risk...losing "all that he has which is alot" in opening his business in a garage. HE WAS lucky at the RIGHT time so he become rich..for his RISK...


Hopefully I'll be rich...soon next year or in 2 year...

---
Side note:
In case some people think I am crazy lol.. Well just look at all "safe risk system in forex factory especially Crappy Sonic R system.. How many of those safe people do you think will ever become millionaire lol... forex forex factory have over 100,000 member I would like to see 95% of people here get rich with "safe system" lol...........

Fun fact, all safe system (except the holigrail) FAIL easily when you apply high risk. BUT if you use "low risk on safe system" you win small profit...
Think about it carefully

Anyway the bottom line is,
Forex is a game, go et a job, bet "medium risk" and get rich "fast in your LUCKY WIN CYCLE YEAR"... It's the only way.....to be rich fast....
  • #4
  • Jul 16, 2014 3:18am Jul 16, 2014 3:18am
Quoting victor_ray
Fine I'll pitch in... Been trading since August 2008 till now.. At the moment I am testing the consistency.. been doing good so far since January 2014... The "Trading Struggles - What is the biggest factor?" that I have to overcome is 1. Developing a system with a reliable edge. ( you can't find...the system no one give the grail to you) But during this process of "Developing" I find that no system ever work in the long run due to the Market Random. However, the one thing I found out that MAKE me win.......... is "developing a money management that...

Your whole post seems to be from the perspective of someone who is simply undercapitalized. Your biggest challenge in trading is quite clear; Accepting reality and having unrealistic expectations.
like totally failure brah
  • #5
  • Jul 16, 2014 6:20am Jul 16, 2014 6:20am
Quoting simonb
{quote} Your whole post seems to be from the perspective of someone who is simply undercapitalized. Your biggest challenge in trading is quite clear; Accepting reality and having unrealistic expectations.
I tend to agree, treating trading as a business is exactly what you should be doing if you're looking to trade long term.

How about you Simon, what have you struggled with? I find this all very interesting.
  • #6
  • Jul 16, 2014 7:06am Jul 16, 2014 7:06am
Time. 2.75 year old toddler at home......
  • #7
  • Jul 16, 2014 10:42am Jul 16, 2014 10:42am
Agreed on all the points listed, esp number four..the major issue most traders have when starting, is dealing with emotions and impatience..
  • #8
  • Jul 16, 2014 11:08am Jul 16, 2014 11:08am
For me number 4...

But I would add that instead of trying to beat your demons - sit down beside them and learn their behaviours and co-exist with them, pre-empt them, know what they will do before the fact but most importantly learn to love them for they are part of you.

Acceptance of self is a critical part of the journey.

Regards
  • #9
  • Jul 16, 2014 12:16pm Jul 16, 2014 12:16pm
You should add reason 6, which one trader has mentioned, undercapitalised. when you have a small account, your wins do not make economic value. Some one with a large account can make do with just one trade a week or less. On the other hand for me with a small account, i will be forced to look for trade after trade there by putting my account to great risk.
  • #10
  • Jul 16, 2014 12:27pm Jul 16, 2014 12:27pm
Quoting TradeDream
{quote} I tend to agree, treating trading as a business is exactly what you should be doing if you're looking to trade long term. How about you Simon, what have you struggled with? I find this all very interesting.
My biggest challenge was biting te bullet and finally giving in to the fact that I can't trade full time ... Yet
I can't turn 5k into 500 k in the next 12 months (safely). And I'm not willing to simply throw that ammount of money away
And I can't rely on this small ammount to put food on the table week in week out.

The requirements of doing this do not coexist with the way the market behaves, like trying to squeeze a square through a circle.

So I took a step back, got a job (which I enjoy) and now feel like I have all the time in the world to do what I need to do to trade properly. No trades this week? No worries, no stress . And ironically I work much much less (on the trading) yet make much more.

Maybe be it just took some time to find a style that suits my personality and lifestyle, perhaps that's it. But having much more fun that's for sure ( in a boring market kinda way

It took a good few years and for me to finally accept this, but at the same time those few years had value of their own.
like totally failure brah
  • #11
  • Jul 16, 2014 12:40pm Jul 16, 2014 12:40pm
My second biggest challenge, was developing a system which fits a market that is anything but rigid . But finally I did.. System hopped a lot before putting all the good bits together.

I must have made and actively traded over 100 different systems, all had discretionary elements which lead to insecurity in a losing streak. And then the inevitable "hop".
like totally failure brah
  • #12
  • Jul 16, 2014 12:46pm Jul 16, 2014 12:46pm
My current challenge is keeping a disciplined routine in which to check the charts.
like totally failure brah
  • #13
  • Jul 16, 2014 4:47pm Jul 16, 2014 4:47pm
Quoting victor_ray
I will say: no stoploss and martingale is 100% time better than ANY system in this world because it is the only way you can get rich quick......
The "lottery ticket" approach. You need to reach your personal target, and then quit before the martingale blows your account. Good luck!
____________________________

For me, it's the complete opposite. I'm a retired investor looking for ways to diversify my portfolio. My ideal outcome would be very safe 20%-50% return p.a. with less than 15% maximal drawdown, very solid statistical backing, and less than an hour's work at the computer each day. I haven't yet managed to find, or devise, a (forex-based) edge that meets all of these requirements.
  • #14
  • Jul 16, 2014 6:25pm Jul 16, 2014 6:25pm
Quoting hanover
{quote} The "lottery ticket" approach. You need to reach your personal target, and then quit before the martingale blows your account. Good luck! ____________________________ For me, it's the complete opposite. I'm a retired investor looking for ways to diversify my portfolio. My ideal outcome would be very safe 20%-50% return p.a. with less than 15% maximal drawdown, very solid statistical backing, and less than an hour's work at the computer each day. I haven't yet managed to find, or devise, a (forex-based) edge that meets all of these...

That's great to know. Would you say you have a process in place to develop a trading system that meets those requirements? ie. Is your discovery / development process very structured at the moment? Do you think that'd be more useful?

Quoting johNal
You should add reason 6, which one trader has mentioned, undercapitalised. when you have a small account, your wins do not make economic value. Some one with a large account can make do with just one trade a week or less. On the other hand for me with a small account, i will be forced to look for trade after trade there by putting my account to great risk.
Sure, that may be an issue in order to live off your trading income, but surely you can be a consistently profitable trader even with a $200 micro account? By looking at your log over the past 3 months you should know exactly if the way you're trading will scale with your account size don't you think?
  • #15
  • Jul 16, 2014 8:45pm Jul 16, 2014 8:45pm
Quoting TradeDream
Take a breath, shut your eyes and think for a couple of moments. Why are you not yet a consistently profitable trader? Really think deeply. Go beyond your last few traders, think about your trading experience as a whole. What about last months trading? What about last years trading? If you had to distil your struggles into a single component of the trading puzzle, what would it be? 1. Developing a system with a reliable edge. 2. Finding a system with a reliable edge. 3. Following rules over a long period of time. 4. Beating your trading...
Been trading for a living for the past 3 years.
Not making loads of money, but enough to cover all my bills, mortgage, expenses.

My 1st greatest challenge was learning to think for myself and take responsibility for my results. I started out naively that all that was to be done is learn a method from a guru and apply. This is leaving the responsibility to the method and guru. Took many bangs on the wall to realize this. Pain will make people change.

This may look very simple for some, but i was trapped in a social mindset which people do not take responsibility for themselves, like for example when you are sick you take medicine and continue your standard unhealthy diet. It is the responsibility of the doctor and medicine to cure you. When you do not have enough for retirement, it is the government's bad policies. When............etc.........

My 2nd greatest challenge was developing a method which i can trade with CONVICTION, which is inline with my personal beliefs about the market and proven in live trades. When i got it(after many years of frustration, almost given up), everything else (inner demons, greed, fear, impatience) isn't as big as a problem as many books have written.
  • #16
  • Jul 16, 2014 10:46pm Jul 16, 2014 10:46pm
Quoting Rand Yap
{quote} Been trading for a living for the past 3 years. Not making loads of money, but enough to cover all my bills, mortgage, expenses. My 1st greatest challenge was learning to think for myself and take responsibility for my results. I started out naively that all that was to be done is learn a method from a guru and apply. This is leaving the responsibility to the method and guru. Took many bangs on the wall to realize this. Pain will make people change. This may look very simple for some, but i was trapped in a social mindset which people do...
rand can you please share what you did to develop that convincing set ups that you trust most or even a clue on how should i be doing. i am just like you, two years of failure and about to quit. thanks in advance.
  • #17
  • Edited 1:58am Jul 17, 2014 12:53am | Edited 1:58am
Quoting victor_ray
I will say: no stoploss and martingale is 100% time better than ANY system in this world because it is the only way you can get rich quick
My main problem with martingale is in most cases the objective is to get back to breakeven. There is a guy at my work who was telling me his brilliant strategy where he doubled every time he lost until he recouped his losses. I couldn't help but ask where is the profit coming from you take such large risks while in losers what about the winners.


As for personal struggles trading too large and over trading. I have recently helped this by switching from my Alpari UK who offer 500:1 to Oanda who offer a max 50:1. Temptation to over stretch on positions is now removed and its much harder wipe out months of gains in one trade.
  • #18
  • Jul 17, 2014 1:01am Jul 17, 2014 1:01am
Quoting BirminghamUK
{quote} My main problem with martingale is in most cases the objective is to get back to breakeven. There is a guy at my work who was telling me his brilliant strategy where he doubled every time he lost until he recouped he losses. I couldn't help but ask where is the profit coming from you take such large risks while in losers what about the winners. As for personal struggles trading too large and over trading. I have recently helped this by switching from my Alpari UK who offer 500:1 to Oanda who offer a max 50:1. Temptation to over stretch on...
I've heard that martingale only works if you have infinite capital, not sure anyone on FF has that....

Quoting jackenorme
rand can you please share what you did to develop that convincing set ups that you trust most or even a clue on how should i be doing. i am just like you, two years of failure and about to quit. thanks in advance.
This is a little of topic but what is your current experience in the market, what market patterns or characteristics resonate with you that you simply haven't been able to develop into a profitable strategy? This is pretty important, if you trade with anything other than the ideas that you perceive as being real, you'll never have confidence in the system and therefore never be consistently profitable. Message me if you'd like, I don't mind. Would be good to share with everyone else though.
  • #19
  • Jul 17, 2014 9:09am Jul 17, 2014 9:09am
Most people (including people who play forex for 4-5 year) think that forex is about making pip, and that you keep your "pip loss small, and MAKE your pip win bigger which will lead to profit".

Let's think about this in depth:

Let just say trade #1 you lose 50 pip, do you think you can Win ALL 50 pip back in a short time? (maybe sometime)

You bet trade #2 you lose 100 pip, do you think can Win 100 pip back in a short time? (could some time)

You bet trade #3 you lose 500 pip, do you think you can win 500 pip back in a short time?

So we can see the pattern here. Many people using virtually "non holigrail system" all suffer more pip loss (either by waiting on floating loss, or a non floating loss) than their "win profit pip. Why is that? (the answer is because you don't have the holigrail to make you win more pip than your loss pip).

Many people are in forex for the LONG RUN, mean you are like to trade forex until you die.
I am sure you can imagine "how many trades you have to bet in the course of your future life probably around 10,000 trade at least in total)

Each trade have a potential to lose "easily 100 pip", while gain 50 pip is a real pain....

So we are dealing with the "inevitable 99% loss scenario" of a Risk1:reward1

If you lose 100,000 pip it's VERY unlikely you can Win 100,000 pip back just "for only Breakeven".

So the only way for you to gain more pip while keep loss pip smaller is to INCREASE the : Risk 1: Reward 2

However, as you have already know IF you "decrease the risk sl" your chance of getting WHIP by the market is more often....

It's already hard enough to risk 100 pip sl and tp 50.... and now you are setting 50 pip sl and tp 100 pip... ( i am not sure the market will give you 50 pip in "profit" let alone 100 pip....


I am sure everyone would agree if you have an "infinite balance" you would never lose... Because you have zero sl... and you can just wait "forever for your order to come back to profit".

Most people are poor/under capitalize. So how do you "have a finite" balance and still win Big money? Well without the holigrail you can't.

But you can however if you use "money" you can actually "overcome the accuracy signal that you may never possess"

Here is food for thought for today:

"It’s not whether you’re right or wrong that’s important, but how much money you make when you’re right and how much you lose when you’re wrong." - George Soros


So with that quote, learn to be MAX out/HighRiskbet/Greedy when your "lucky chance to win arrive".

-----
Note: you might say, how do one know the lucky chance to win has arrive? Well I do not know that's why I use martingale to "get me out loss when it's not my lucky time to win...."
  • #20
  • Jul 18, 2014 1:48am Jul 18, 2014 1:48am
Good luck Victor. I'm personally not sure you're on the right track but I wish you all the best.
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