Is anyone here an institutional trader? | Page 20 | Forex Factory

Options

Go to
Permalinks
Print Thread

Similar Threads

Anyone here profitable? Show your Live Earnings here 3 replies

Brokers and Banks as an Institutional Trader 4 replies

Anyone can provide market depth snapshot for ATC Active Trader ? 0 replies

anyone can login to vt trader? 1 reply

Attachments: Is anyone here an institutional trader?
Exit Attachments

Is anyone here an institutional trader?

  • #381
  • Jun 25, 2014 11:56am Jun 25, 2014 11:56am
Quoting dns_di
{quote} Thats absolutly illogical. You stated banks (you including) run clients' stops, what makes you believe brokers are different from the banks? Well, they might not be as big, and their clients have less cash, but it does not make them saint. And I even think it is regardless of what broker model they use, whether it is market making or stp or ecn, when you see stops and you have capital to move market what do you do? Biggest brokers out there have client deposits in excess of 1 billion US dollars, they do not even have to use leverage to move...

Interactive Brokers financial statements equal 58 billion USD...
Gregory D. Alexandr
  • #382
  • Jun 25, 2014 12:02pm Jun 25, 2014 12:02pm
Quoting galexandr
{quote} Interactive Brokers financial statements equal 58 billion USD...
actually 29 billion USD, IB is not solely forex broker though...

https://www.interactivebrokers.com/d..._Aud_Finls.pdf
  • #383
  • Jun 25, 2014 12:06pm Jun 25, 2014 12:06pm
Quoting dns_di
{quote} Thats absolutly illogical. You stated banks (you including) run clients' stops, what makes you believe brokers are different from the banks?
The question asked was of retail brokers. Some retail brokers probably do run stops (although I don't see how that can "move" markets substantially). But as I see it, they can only do this in the direction that Big Banks dictate.

I've always believed (and I haven't seen anything that shakes that belief) that the retail FX space operates parallel to the interbank one using interbank prices to benchmark against and it's the interbank market that dictates direction.

Even interdealer brokers (entirely different from retail brokers), who broker amounts far larger than what retail brokers do, don't move markets. It's the interbank players who trade thru them that moves the markets. (Granted, some retail brokers probably do have more capital than most interdealer brokers I know )

Quoting dns_di
Well, they might not be as big, and their clients have less cash, but it does not make them saint. And I even think it is regardless of what broker model they use, whether it is market making or stp or ecn, when you see stops and you have capital to move market what do you do? Biggest brokers out there have client deposits in excess of 1 billion US dollars, they do not even have to use leverage to move the market short term. Just my 2 cents.
re: your bolded statement, I think you're only partially right. Granted, some have enough capital to NOT have to use leverage, but even they cannot go too far against the "direction" as dictated by the interbank market they're actually shadowing.
Quoting galexandr
{quote} Interactive Brokers financial statements equal 58 billion USD...

My 2 cents still stand.
I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm not in the "convincing" business.
  • #384
  • Jun 25, 2014 1:07pm Jun 25, 2014 1:07pm
Quoting skenobi
{quote} The question asked was of retail brokers.
I meant retail brokers as well.

Quoting skenobi
{quote} Some retail brokers probably do run stops (although I don't see how that can "move" markets substantially).
With retail leverage they do not need to move market substantially.

Quoting skenobi
Even interdealer brokers (entirely different from retail brokers), who broker amounts far larger than what retail brokers do, don't move markets.
There is not much point for interdealer brokers to move market against hedge funds and corporate clients who use tiny (compared to retail) leverage. Banks obviously will do that job for them (or rather for themselves), if some crazy hedge fund will trade with big leverage. They will push market against it, because they know that in few hundred pips there gonna be huge liquidity .

Depending on what you mean by far larger, that might not be true. There are handful of them, biggest inter-dealer broker ICAP may fx volumes stood at 73.5 billion USD, not impressive at all.
  • #385
  • Jun 25, 2014 1:38pm Jun 25, 2014 1:38pm
Quoting dns_di
{quote} I meant retail brokers as well. {quote} With retail leverage they do not need to move market substantially. {quote} There is not much point for interdealer brokers to move market against hedge funds and corporate clients who use tiny (compared to retail) leverage. Banks obviously will do that job for them (or rather for themselves), if some crazy hedge fund will trade with big leverage. They will push market against it, because they know that in few hundred pips there gonna be huge liquidity . Depending on what you mean by far larger,...
Anyway, the main point of contention is whether retail brokers can "move markets". To me, this implies that retail brokers can set directional ques that can conceivably be followed by other bigger players (including interbank ones), instead of the other way around.

Bottomline, I disagree that this is even possible without any anecdotal evidence to that effect. I'm only calling it as I see it, and what I see is that (bullshit spikes notwithstanding ) retail markets will shadow the interbank market, and not the other way around.

We'll just have to agree to disagree here.
I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm not in the "convincing" business.
  • #386
  • Jun 25, 2014 1:41pm Jun 25, 2014 1:41pm
Quoting whiteout
remember me what a great trader once told me "give a 1:20 lev account to an educated and disciplined trader and he will make money, give a 1:20 lev account to a rookie and he will lose money;"
that makes sense

Quoting whiteout
give a 1:500 lev. account to an educated and disciplined trader and he will make money, give a 1:500 lev account to a rookie and he will lose money faster". leverage is trading tool like any other, used it properly and with reasonability can't hurt you.
that does not make sense, they both will lose with such a leverage on forex.
  • #387
  • Jun 25, 2014 1:54pm Jun 25, 2014 1:54pm
Quoting skenobi
{quote} Anyway, the main point of contention is whether retail brokers can "move markets". To me, this implies that retail brokers can set directional ques that can conceivably be followed by other bigger players (including interbank ones), instead of the other way around. Bottomline, I disagree that this is even possible
I agree that you disagree that retail will set the trend in forex, that would be absolutely insane to even think of, I do not know what post made you believe that I am insane enoght to even think of it. I guess majority can not beat creator of the market, because he set the rules to favor him, for he created the market not to enrich us, but to enrich himself .
  • #388
  • Jun 25, 2014 2:17pm Jun 25, 2014 2:17pm
Quoting dns_di
{quote} I agree that you disagree that retail will set the trend in forex, that would be absolutely insane to even think of, I do not know what post made you believe that I am insane enoght to even think of it.
Erm.. The question was asked by MetroFX whether it was possible retail brokers can move markets, and I replied "Likely not.".

Then you responded, "Thats absolutly illogical. You stated banks (you including) run clients' stops, what makes you believe brokers are different from the banks?" I had assumed you were talking to me.

Hence, my assumption of your insanity.

Quoting dns_di
I guess majority can not beat creator of the market, because he set the rules to favor him, for he created the market not to enrich us, but to enrich himself .
You could be right. Markets are unfair and I thank God for it, otherwise there would be no losers to take from. Now that I'm a retail trader myself, I accept that "favorable rules" are a privilege, not a right, and I adjust my strategies accordingly.
I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm not in the "convincing" business.
  • #389
  • Jun 25, 2014 2:40pm Jun 25, 2014 2:40pm
One more question, how do you confirm that a SL should be done?.

I'm asking because for SL we only needed 1 Million to be traded for it to be executed some guys asked for half the SL to be traded in volume (normally if the SL wasn't big), just wondering because of the volumes you are talking (our market was easier to see this because there was a big part of the transactions that were done through a exchange 1/3 or 1/2).

One more thing i dont understand you guys is when you make the diference between spot and forward, afaik or how it workind here, all intraday trades were made as spot, if by the endo of X hour you didn't want to close you had to go forward, the ony way i can see retail brokers making more money on this is 1st the swap rate is much higher than interbanks (some traders do) and 2 in banks you only swap or make forward the net exposure of all the trades (that is only for the bank thought) regular clients had to pay for the swap for everytrade as any regular customer in a retail FX broker.

With the 1 Million rules, that made life easier to run stops for many guys in retail brokers volume really doesnt matter.
  • #390
  • Jun 25, 2014 2:44pm Jun 25, 2014 2:44pm
Quoting skenobi
{quote} Erm.. The question was asked by MetroFX whether it was possible retail brokers can move markets, and I replied "Likely not.". Then you responded, "Thats absolutly illogical. You stated banks (you including) run clients' stops, what makes you believe brokers are different from the banks?" I had assumed you were talking to me. Hence, my assumption of your insanity. {quote} You could be right. Markets are unfair and I thank God for it, otherwise there would be no losers to take from. Now that I'm a retail trader myself, I accept that "favorable...
You guys didnt understand each other.

Why i asked is because at some point the retail FX broker has o goes and cover their net exposure with a PB / LP or a Bank, so they might be able to move the price a bit if they are not against the position of any big bank (in theory it could happen just dont know if it actually happens).
  • #391
  • Jun 25, 2014 3:02pm Jun 25, 2014 3:02pm
Quoting MetroFX
One more question, how do you confirm that a SL should be done?
This is the only bit I understood. I did not understand the rest of your post as it's just rambling. Give an example of an open trade (whether long or short) at whatever level and a SL level.

Quoting MetroFX
{quote} You guys didnt understand each other. Why i asked is because at some point the retail FX broker has o goes and cover their net exposure with a PB / LP or a Bank, so they might be able to move the price a bit if they are not against the position of any big bank (in theory it could happen just dont know if it actually happens).
Frankly I don't know anything much about retail broker business models, but it would seem to me that a broker that does not continually manage their net exposure so that it doesn't become too large that it could "move" markets (to me, a very unlikely event) must not be a very safe broker to do business with.

i.e. I doubt very much a retail broker will allow their net exposures to become so large so as to make themselves a target by big banks with more bullets than a retail broker can hope to have.
I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm not in the "convincing" business.
  • #392
  • Jun 25, 2014 6:33pm Jun 25, 2014 6:33pm
Models and Bottles
  • #393
  • Jun 25, 2014 7:11pm Jun 25, 2014 7:11pm
Thanks skenobi for your advice
Quoting skenobi
You could be right. Markets are unfair and I thank God for it, otherwise there would be no losers to take from. Now that I'm a retail trader myself, I accept that "favorable rules" are a privilege, not a right, and I adjust my strategies accordingly.
I love this answer and I think everyone agreed to that
  • #394
  • Edited 9:20pm Jun 25, 2014 8:18pm | Edited 9:20pm
Quoting JacobFordFX
.......1. I (tried) never follow anyone else's trades or trading styles. You have to find your own way and style of trading that works for you based on your personality. .....
Quoting skenobi
Bottomline: not knowing the whos, the whys and the whatfors is not a handicap.
Quoting GlobalMacro
.... One could say private traders don't really lack trading knowledge as much as they lack a suitable environment to thrive in.....good discussion

What a great thread. Thanks guys.

I just finished reading the whole thing and then I turned around and...... there was UPS with my new T-shirt !! @ FF >
  • #395
  • Jun 25, 2014 11:05pm Jun 25, 2014 11:05pm
Fantastic answer from from institutional traders. One fact that the minus point for retail trader is "spread" that damage their trading success. Second their are still Technic using that these big guys can do nothing to make loss to these retail traders . If not true , but it is fact not earning too much instantly,but will earn 5% to 10% of their investment per day is fact. According to my experience retail traders loss due to their habits of jumping in market without looking for proper entry and exit point.
Neither a Bro Nor a Pro I am I
  • #396
  • Jun 26, 2014 10:45am Jun 26, 2014 10:45am
Quoting skenobi
{quote} This is the only bit I understood. I did not understand the rest of your post as it's just rambling. Give an example of an open trade (whether long or short) at whatever level and a SL level. {quote} Frankly I don't know anything much about retail broker business models, but it would seem to me that a broker that does not continually manage their net exposure so that it doesn't become too large that it could "move" markets (to me, a very unlikely event) must not be a very safe broker to do business with. i.e. I doubt very much a retail broker...
Let's say i have a stop loss at 1.3600 on EURUSD right? what amount should be traded there so that the stop is executed?

If the order is 1 Million / 10 million / 100 million.

Then the same thing with a Take profit at 1.3600 on EURUSD right? what amount should be traded there so that the stop is executed?

if order s 1 million / 10 million / 100 million
  • #397
  • Jun 26, 2014 11:24am Jun 26, 2014 11:24am
Quoting MetroFX
{quote} Let's say i have a stop loss at 1.3600 on EURUSD right? what amount should be traded there so that the stop is executed? If the order is 1 Million / 10 million / 100 million. Then the same thing with a Take profit at 1.3600 on EURUSD right? what amount should be traded there so that the stop is executed? if order s 1 million / 10 million / 100 million
(all examples from Bank trader's POV)

If I'm long EURUSD with a stoploss at 1.3600, it means I have to close at the order book runner's bid. Price has to come down until 1.3600 is offered somewhere in the world, in which case the book runner will probably close me out at say 1.3598, keeping 2 pips for himself. Alternatively I could've left the order as a stop loss "on 1.3600 bid", in which case, the runner will clear me at 1.3600.

If I'm long EURUSD with a TP at 1.3600, price has to go up until 1.3600 is taken and then bid somewhere in the world, in which case the book runner will close me out at 1.3600 exactly.

100 mio orders are probably easily cleared these days, but where I come from, only an asshole would leave a 100 mio order with only one order book runner instead of spreading it around.

Disclaimer: as a retail trader, I hardly ever use hard stops; only mental stops.
I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm not in the "convincing" business.
  • #398
  • Jun 26, 2014 12:51pm Jun 26, 2014 12:51pm
Quoting skenobi
{quote} Disclaimer: as a retail trader, I hardly ever use hard stops; only mental stops.
And what is fundamental difference between hard stops and mental stops.

ps from POV of banking trader it is clear, but now being retail guy I think it is not smart to say the least. Good luck executing your mental stop when platform goes off
  • #399
  • Jun 26, 2014 1:20pm Jun 26, 2014 1:20pm
Quoting dns_di
{quote} And what is fundamental difference between hard stops and mental stops.
Huh?! seriously? Hard stops are actual stop orders placed. Mental stops are mental stops.

Quoting dns_di
ps from POV of banking trader it is clear, but now being retail guy I think it is not smart to say the least.
If you say so mate! It's worked for me so far, tho. And FYI, even when I was trading for Banks, my mental stop levels had always been well before my hard stops, and I rarely if ever allowed price to reach my hard stops before I stopped myself out manually.

Quoting dns_di
Good luck executing your mental stop when platform goes off
That has happened to me a couple of times, in fact. Thankfully the brokers I used had their own proprietary platforms for alternative access.

And good luck to you too with your hard stops.
I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm not in the "convincing" business.
  • #400
  • Jun 26, 2014 1:36pm Jun 26, 2014 1:36pm
this one is for the institutional traders or traders handling large accounts. Ok so i really need some advice. for the past 2 years i have been trying my hand at trading. going through trading multiple books, writing codes for new indicators, running them on MATLAB etc. even after all this i am yet to find find a very reliable trading system that makes money in real environment. every time i fail, the frustration grows. now the issue is next week i am to join as an investment banking analyst in one of the top firms (it has already been mentioned in this thread). i was hoping to work for a while on general projects and then move to the sales and trading desk. i have always wanted to be a trader, but the past few months have forced me to reconsider. Now i am leaning towards M&A. Skenobi, JacobFordFX if you could go back in time and were given a choice to choose between the two which would you go for? it trading really worth he effort? I know that the sales and trading guys make more than other IB guys but i have some significant inheritance. so i can live with it. from what i read you guys are up trading close to 18 hrs a day, which is normal for IB in the initial years. as time passes the hours come down but for traders it becomes the exact opposite.
3 traders viewing now